Arg has an idea for pvp - comments welcome

Ok as someone who doesnt PvP (yet...maybe)

The only modification I would make on the 2 min zoning thing is this.

You cant zone for 2 mins only IF you have attacked or cast an 'offensive nano' (since I'm an Eng I'm likely to run like mad under attack, I shouldnt be stopped from escaping if I havent 'returned fire' - all that does is encourages 'picking on the little guy' since he cant get away). Its also unfair to people in yalms since they would also be prevented from zoning even though its pretty obvious they do not intend to PvP (Omni gunship not withstanding)

The description of 'offensive nano' is also tricky since I'm likely to have a photon aura running if I'm going through a PvP zone to stop myself being hit if attacked, this shouldnt stop me from zoning (I suspect the photon effect is currently classed as an 'offensive nano'), reflect and damage shields may also fall into this catagory?

While 'de-valuing' fixer evacs, this would also devalue roots and snares since anything that lacks a 2 minute duration is unlikely to save your butt if severly outmatched (and therefore more likely to try and run). The point of these nanos is to allow you to get away, however you're proposing an external mechanism which overrides this. This would need some serious balancing.



I agree with own side kills not awarding titles (however doesnt stop farming from 'other faction' alts! It just made it less convienient)

I'm in 2 minds about the title toggle. While I would be miffed if I lost a title (since it would be really hard for me to get one with my main) wouldnt people just go around with the toggle off until they found a 'sitting duck' (see first point) turned titles on, made the kill and turned them off again? This system (although really good for stopping title loss due to dust brigade-type 'events') stops you being 'ambushed' while not expecting PvP (while on the way to a mission for example). Shouldnt title be a measure of your 'battlefield prowess' (skill under fire etc.) rather than 'how prepared I can be when I set out to kill someone'?

Since you wont know your targets 'toggle state' you could risk a 'title combat' where you wont win anything (they have titles off) true you wont lose points if they kill you, but a ganker could then kill you and gain points. Doesnt this indirectly encourage ganking?

I suppose it all comes down to what title is actually a measure of?

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Originally posted by Nameless
I agree but I'll always zone out of a fight when I'm losing because I'm master of the universe.

All your base are belong to us

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It was meant to be sarcastic! Who do you know to impersonate others!

All your base are belong to us

funcom fixed it too no damage done

Borrowing from a dying MMORPG, but the one online game whose PvP is actually done right...

Any person dealing damage cannot leave the scene. This actually requires you to be semi-intelligent about targets, instead of alpha/run on anything you see. More standoffs occur with a bit more drama, and only people confident enough will actually trigger combat. Another intriguing scenario is what happens when an org begins to get attacked. Why? Tactical retreat actually plays a role. Don't begin assisting combat unless you actually think you can save your teammates. Three things could happen...

A) You win, good.
B) The teammate(s) you were helping out has died, and now you are alone and cannot zone.
C) You realize things are not good, and are able to zone because you retreated instead of staying with your mate.

Examples:

Tom zones into 2HO and sees a ton of enemies. He gets attacked, he zones out.

Tom zones into 2HO and sees 1 enemy. He unloads, then realizes there's more than 1. He tries to zone, but can't.

Tom zones into 2HO and sees 1 enemy. The enemy initiates combat on Tom, then Tom retaliates. Tom gets to 10% HP and cannot zone out because of retaliation.

Tom zones into 2HO and sees 1 enemy. He kills the enemy, but while they were fighting, a ganker stepped in and began to attack Tom. Tom can safely zone out.

How long does the no-zone feature last? Either until
1) The person you attacked is dead.
2) Your dead. : )
3) Two minutes after the last damage occured. This would apply to DoT's as well.

Healing does not apply to this because it's not a damage dealer. One person can have many, many doctors heal them while in combat - and those doctors can safely zone out.

Does it make sense from a real-world logistical standpoint? No.
Is this the real-world? No.

-Drenaline

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Originally posted by Nameless


It was meant to be sarcastic! Who do you know to impersonate others!

All your base are belong to us

funcom fixed it too no damage done

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heh...

I'm actually honored that i'm important enough for people to do this sort of thing :P

Kinda funny...

Arg

You bet arg. So many people think you're the enemy, including omni, i couldnt help but do it. I actually had one guy fall for it

All your base are belong to us

wheee

First off: I like what I see but...

A quick observation.

The 2 minute zone thing would be a bit broken. I'm an MP who loves to participate in 2ho runs, but I've noticed a VERY irritating thing: after fights are over (if I'm still alive) i tend to hold aggro, which means I'm in a fight and can't recharge... I think this is some kind of bug involving my pets aggroing people, then the people womping out, but my pets continue to aggro.

Either way the result is that I can't recharge at all... the only way I've learned to fix this is to quickly run into the bunker which resets my agg.

I don't like the idea having to sit around with less than 20% nano for 2 minutes after any fight. :(

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Originally posted by Meurgen
after fights are over (if I'm still alive) i tend to hold aggro, which means I'm in a fight and can't recharge... I think this is some kind of bug involving my pets aggroing people, then the people womping out, but my pets continue to aggro.

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Not pets - same thing happens if you're fighting team mission boss (either on your own or last man out) and you use the lift down to recharge. System thinks your still in a fight, until someone else goes and attacks the boss.

The system must not differentiate that the boss/player is still 'attacking' you but is in a different zone.

Either way it'd make PvP impossible for me. The best I could hope for would to kill someone to balance out the PvP points I lost when they return and kill me cuz I'm out of nano. :)

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Originally posted by Argulace_MoK
Zoning is zoning (leaving the current playfield). No fixer grids either.

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Sorry but I've got to disagree with you on this one. Evacing is one of the Fixer's defining characteristics. You simply can't just say "Oh I don't like that ability, so you can't use it." That is like what Funcom did with the range nerf and NTs. If you take away you must give something back to compensate.

Now with that said, I wouldn't mind altering the Evac in PvP situations. The easiest solution would be to make the Evac teleport you to a random nearby destination and break targeting if used while under PvP attack.

Remember one of the reasons for having a Fixer in your party is that you have a safety value if you come under attack.

The only solution to the problem of zoning is to make all the zones outside of big cities into 25% or less. Of course this will never happen on existing servers due to a large number of players who like the carebear atmosphere, therefore PvPers need a server of their own, where they are not restricted to three small lag filled areas to combat each other.

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Originally posted by Argulace_MoK
Last I checked, Omni and Clan were at war. In war, you dont get to "zone" when your out numbered.

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Ummm, yes you do.

Last time you checked there was no grid in real life. Welp, in AO there is. Therefore we do have the option of gridding out as a form of retreat.

Are you telling me that if in real life we had some sort beaming or gridding technology we wouldn't use it when things got hairy?

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Originally posted by Konstas
The only solution to the problem of zoning is to make all the zones outside of big cities into 25% or less.

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I think that you can still have zones that are gas protected along with pure PvP zones. The way to make it work is to give incentives for players to hunt in the PvP zones that would compensate for the increased difficulty. Some examples could be:

• Increased experience points gained
• Loot that is exclusive to PvP zones
• Objectives that can be taken and held to give a side advantage

The current situation doesn't work because there is no reason to hunt in PvP zones besides the PvP itself. This attracts only the hardcore PvPers who are willing to devote large amounts of time gearing their characters towards PvP combat, which creates a substantial barrier for the casual player. They simply don't want to PvP because the odds are that the characters that they will meet will be twinks that would wipe the floor with them.

Now if there were reasons to hunt in PvP zones, more players would do it (Like me for instance). That would average out the characters in these zones. You'd still have the twinks, but you'd also have the less than uber players too, which would at least give you the opportunity to have a fair fight from time to time.

If Funcom were really on the ball, they would design PvP zones to provide advantages to a side that were proportional to the number of players from your side currently hunting in the zone. This would give a reason for higher level or uber players to protect the weaker ones.

One way to do this would be to have special side shops in PvP zones that gave out expendable or time limited items that were better than normal. These items would be created with materials that are only found in the zone and would randomly drop from mobs. When found, players would sell the material to their side's shop. The more material turned in, the more (or better) items would be available for purchase by everyone on that side. You'd have to also implement a rule where no material would drop from a mob that you attacked and was gray to you. I'd also like to see that this special meterial would always be lootable by the victor of a PvP fight.

So if you were high level and wanted some of the better items, the best way to get them would be to keep the PvP area safe for your side to hunt in and to encourage more of your side to participate. I can envision players offering protection services for other groups hunting in PvP areas. That would strenthen the community, increase PvP and be a lot of fun.

This is a very good idea..
Im behind you 100% arg :)

Bonuses for XP'n in PvP Zones is a waste of programming time.

I can see the high level players camping mob spawns now, waiting to take down lower level players. You're pretty much opening a blood bank and telling Vampires where to find it.

Who would hunt? For what? 25% more XP? At the risk of losing your entire level because you got wiped by a 180MA who was bored of missioning? It's takes enough time as is to find a team of 6, let alone 6 with an entourage of defense, whose only goal would be to sit and watch you wack Discontinue Eyes for a few hours.

Only uber players capable of defending themselves would be there. And that kind of defeats the purpose - you're just making uber players more uber.

People would try it out for a period of time, cause it was 'new and exciting'. Then after their 5th death to a high-level org, they would take the first shuttle back to Newland.

Survey says, "X"

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Originally posted by Drenaline
I can see the high level players camping mob spawns now, waiting to take down lower level players. You're pretty much opening a blood bank and telling Vampires where to find it.

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Nope, wouldn't happen. Well it would, but that is why I said that high players don't get any loot for mobs that they attack that are gray to them. High level players camping low level sites wouldn't get them anything. Now high level players camping a low level site to kill the opposing side's players is not only possible, but encouraged.

Hold on now. I'm not smoking the wacko weed.

Benefit in the PvP zones should be side based, not individually based. In my example, the quality or quantity of items that you can buy from your side's store is directly related to the amount of material that is turned in to it. That material randomly drops off of mobs in the zone and is NOT related to the mob's difficulty.

Now say that you are level 200 and want some of the good items offered in the special store. You can go hunt directly for the material and turn it in or you can go protect a party of 6 other players that are lower level so that they can get the material. Doing the second choice would be the better choice over the long run because you now have 6 people collecting instead of just yourself. As they collect and turn the material in the quality and quantity of items that you can buy will go up.

So what you would have is lower level players hunting NPCs for material with higher level players protecting them. The opposing side might be doing the same or try to attack your "harvesters" to either steal their material or make them go elsewhere. In the end we have PvP that actually matters.

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Who would hunt? For what? 25% more XP? At the risk of losing your entire level because you got wiped by a 180MA who was bored of missioning? It's takes enough time as is to find a team of 6, let alone 6 with an entourage of defense, whose only goal would be to sit and watch you wack Discontinue Eyes for a few hours.

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Well the extra experience is there for exactly that situation. It is to compensate you for the experience points that you WILL lose due to PvP. It will entice players into PvP areas. It is just a matter of selecting the correct bonus. If you are likely to lose 25% of you experience over time due to PvP, but get a 25% bonus, then it evens out and you are not penalized for hunting in a PvP zone.

As for finding someone to protect you, I covered that in my first response.

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Only uber players capable of defending themselves would be there. And that kind of defeats the purpose - you're just making uber players more uber.

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The exact opposite will happen. The number of players in the zone matters more than the level or uberness. A level 200 player will be able to collect just as much material as a level 100. Since there are more level 100s in the game than level 200, it makes since for the level 200 player to not even try to farm material, but to either protect their own players or hunt down the opposing players. This gives everyone a role in PvP regardless of level.

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Originally posted by Crin


....high players don't get any loot for mobs that they attack that are gray to them.

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No. Players should get rewarded for advancing in level, not penalized. They should receive the same loot, regardless of level, anyone else does off a mob they rightfully kill. Their reward is that they can mow these mobs down faster.

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Originally posted by Crin

High level players camping low level sites wouldn't get them anything. Now high level players camping a low level site to kill the opposing side's players is not only possible, but encouraged.

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I didn't mean high level players would be camping mob spawns for the mobs. They would obviously be there to **** low level players, knowing that's where they'd be for XP. Hence the blood bank/Vampires analogy.

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Benefit in the PvP zones should be side based, not individually based. In my example, the quality or quantity of items that you can buy from your side's store is directly related to the amount of material that is turned in to it. That material randomly drops off of mobs in the zone and is NOT related to the mob's difficulty.

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Ok, how about I do some missioning in Broken Shores, visit a few Tarasque Raids, get my Pads III quest done, hunt SD for MKII, and on my way home, I think I'll drop by 2Ho and pick up a super-uber item that other Clanners turned in materials to spawn. =/

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Originally posted by Crin

Now say that you are level 200 and want some of the good items offered in the special store. You can go hunt directly for the material and turn it in or you can go protect a party of 6 other players that are lower level so that they can get the material.

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If benefits in a PvP zone are side-based, not individual based, as you say, why would a level 200 waste his time collecting items, or protecting other people to do it. He can just drop by, visit the store and leave. There is no need for *him specifically* to own any special materials in your plan. He can kick back, relax, and reap the harvest other faction-members have produced.

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So what you would have is lower level players hunting NPCs for material with higher level players protecting them. The opposing side might be doing the same or try to attack your "harvesters" to either steal their material or make them go elsewhere. In the end we have PvP that actually matters.

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I agree that the premise of your idea is a good one. Higher levels protecting lower levels while both work to achieve an objective. This is how the entire planet should operate outside of city walls.

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Well the extra experience is there for exactly that situation. It is to compensate you for the experience points that you WILL lose due to PvP. It will entice players into PvP areas. It is just a matter of selecting the correct bonus. If you are likely to lose 25% of you experience over time due to PvP, but get a 25% bonus, then it evens out and you are not penalized for hunting in a PvP zone.

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If it all evens out over time, no thanks - I'd rather not gamble with my XP and at the same time experience headache over headache of XP flushing down the drain.

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Originally posted by Crin

The exact opposite will happen. The number of players in the zone matters more than the level or uberness. A level 200 player will be able to collect just as much material as a level 100. Since there are more level 100s in the game than level 200, it makes since for the level 200 player to not even try to farm material, but to either protect their own players or hunt down the opposing players. This gives everyone a role in PvP regardless of level.

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I think at the very core, material is an arbitrary object to be warred over. Change material to outposts. Provide XP bonuses to the side controlling the most outposts in a zone. Put a few, non-uber but better than average items in outpost shops.

Make outposts ridiculous to acquire - zero guards alive in the proximity, 0 opposing-faction members in a specific control room, etc.

The end result is a war over territory. Not petty, random skirmishes over material that you could get yourself at 4am in the morning.

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Originally posted by Drenaline
No. Players should get rewarded for advancing in level, not penalized. They should receive the same loot, regardless of level, anyone else does off a mob they rightfully kill. Their reward is that they can mow these mobs down faster.

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I absolutely, positively, without question, disagree 100% with you on this point. (I hope I wasn't too subtle). Players should never advance to a point where a desired objective is trivially obtained (at least repeatedly). It is my opinion that this is at the core of what screws up MMORPGs. Either through number of players or through high levels, objectives are too easily achieved. Often it is the best, if not the only way to get an item. So why do I hate it so?

Trivially obtaining an objective:

• Is not fun.
  For instance, beating a gray mob gives me no sense of accomplishment. Sure, the first time you obliterate a mob that use to terrorize you, you'll get the warm fuzzies, but doing it 100 times is about as much fun as watching paint dry.
  
  The real fun in the game comes when you push yourself to the limit. Maybe I don't speak for you, but I know that for myself and many others, the best time in AO came back when I was fighting the Borg in Mort. If things went wrong multiple parties could get wiped out, but if they went right, you were nicely rewarded.
  
• Destroys the game for those who the objective was meant for.
  Who likes to be ganked by players twice your level or have to compete with those very same players for a camping spot or dungeon. Nuff said.
  
• Forces arbitrary restrictions like long spawn times.
  If objectives can be trivially obtained then the only way to limit them is with timers. Of course the only thing that timers do is make it so that instead of playing the game, you are standing in a line waiting for an item to spawn. Nobody likes camping.
  
  Instead, if an objective will always come with some risk, then there is little need for a spawn timer. For example, lets say Funcom added a Hat of Uberness to the game. But to get the hat, you had to do a team mission that removed all buffs when you entered, adjusted the difficulty depending on number of players, had level restrictions and a short time limit. Yes it would be tough, but there would be no reason to put it on a timer. The difficulty itself would be the limit. You could try the mission any time you wanted. I'd much prefer that to standing in a line.

To be honest, I would prefer that you would only get material if you beat a red mob or greater.

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I didn't mean high level players would be camping mob spawns for the mobs. They would obviously be there to **** low level players, knowing that's where they'd be for XP. Hence the blood bank/Vampires analogy.

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Ok I got you, but my point is that it isn't a bad thing if you've got your own high level players backing you up. The whole point is to structure the rules so that the high level players would want to back you up.

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Ok, how about I do some missioning in Broken Shores, visit a few Tarasque Raids, get my Pads III quest done, hunt SD for MKII, and on my way home, I think I'll drop by 2Ho and pick up a super-uber item that other Clanners turned in materials to spawn. =/

If benefits in a PvP zone are side-based, not individual based, as you say, why would a level 200 waste his time collecting items, or protecting other people to do it. He can just drop by, visit the store and leave. There is no need for *him specifically* to own any special materials in your plan. He can kick back, relax, and reap the harvest other faction-members have produced.

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I agree this is a problem. You want to reward players for helping other players but because that is hard to detect by the game, it allows some players to leach off of the hard work done by others. This can be solved by having the amount of items that can be bought from the shops limited by the amount of material turned in. So unless you hunted in the zone, you couldn't get any of the items from the shops. Players could then trade the material to higher level players as a form of payment for protection.

That solution is off the top of my head so there could be some holes in it, but the point is that some workaround can be found.

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If it all evens out over time, no thanks - I'd rather not gamble with my XP and at the same time experience headache over headache of XP flushing down the drain.

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Well that is your choice. I however would love the change of pace. You also have to realize that PvP is not a dirty word for everybody. I actually want to do it. The problem is that with AO the way it is right now, it is difficult to get excited about it. Gambling is what Las Vegas is based on and they seem to manage to keep em coming. If all you want to do is play it safe then I don't think anything I say will change your mind.

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I think at the very core, material is an arbitrary object to be warred over. Change material to outposts. Provide XP bonuses to the side controlling the most outposts in a zone. Put a few, non-uber but better than average items in outpost shops.

Make outposts ridiculous to acquire - zero guards alive in the proximity, 0 opposing-faction members in a specific control room, etc.

The end result is a war over territory. Not petty, random skirmishes over material that you could get yourself at 4am in the morning.

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Hey I've got no problem with that. I originally offered the material suggestion as a possible way it could be done. In fact, I really, really want outposts to attack and defend. The only problem with only doing that idea is that it still doesn't provide incentives for players to hunt in the open in PvP zones. I also think that the material idea is easier to implement. Just add a new loot item drop for PvP zones and a custom store that only takes that item as payment. Done.

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Originally posted by Crin

You also have to realize that PvP is not a dirty word for everybody.

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It's not a dirty word to me either. But I haven't played this game for over year, and I don't camp spawns every single day. I know I'm under-leveled, under-equipped and under-knowledged to survive group PvP. When I go to 2H0, or Tir Arena... I die. I'm 0 kills 5 deaths in the last week. Did I have fun? Yes! Why? Cause there was no frustration level : ) No real point to this comment, just saying my ideas aren't biased by anti-PvP opinions I guess.

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Gambling is what Las Vegas is based on and they seem to manage to keep em coming. If all you want to do is play it safe then I don't think anything I say will change your mind.

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Tell ya what - if I'm level 100 and I'm out there killing mobs for 45,000 XP each. And maybe, just maybe.... one of those mobs will bring me 1,000,000,000 XP.... I'll show up with a bucket of quarters too.

;oP

MY 25c!!!

i like arg's ideas,
so lets not drift off main purpse of this thread.

Recently i read another thread about purposing a new pvp battle ground ( some where in the desert in BS ). Naturally you'll need to put some special mob there other wise people will be reluctant to go.
So what are the benifits of this? more importantly what does it have to do with Arg's purpose of thread?

First of all, it would be in some open area, maybe mort, maybe PW... wherever, meaning not a lot of buildings, preferably none... so zoning option is eliminated (unless u grid by whatever means you can) you can retreat of course.

Second, of course it wouldnt eliminate the lag problems completly, but the "SOLUTION" that has been applied to camelot isnt working(separate dungeons, engie warping), so having some type of open battle ground somewhere remote is at least better than <qoute by noer> the bottlenecks of camelot <end q>

Third, maybe finally with that type of environment (however the heck its spelled) you can have some type of sturctured war, for example soldiers/enfs/pets in the front, docs/traders/mp's in the back and so on..........


i dont know about you, but i find that type of pvp much more exciting than the current Bunker bull**** of 2h0, and the occasionally immortal beings at camelot (0hp bug) and of course the idiotic lag.....

i must say a 1/2 bump to eliminating same side killing, part of it cause it would eliminate some friendly duels at arena, other part is that i believe title farming is kinda weak (legal or not i dun care, just my opinion)

Whaddya think??? @_@

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P.S. .............

B~