Well, then you get into the other spectrum of disappointment: uselessness.
400 more damage (200 in PVP) and 200 more health gained back, and the only way to eclipse the final 200 Nanoskills is to dump EVERYTHING into building your nanoskills up via equipment, perks, both drains (one of them being 150%) and the like... and that's what you're rewarded with?
That's uselessness.
Gatester: Just don't use the top one though...Quote:
Originally Posted by Saetos
Yeah, I don't understand that line of reasoning either. The reqs on the top nano are far too high for the amount of gain. It should be at least 10-20+ times more of an increase.
Good point :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Saetos
in the same way that the shuttle graphics and sound are useless in game mechanics. They do not make you stronger.
To me having made a choice (not going after the last nano) is better than having the last nano, and there being no more contents, then my thought is "FunCom is lazy for not putting more nanos in"
a "cheap" effect, costing 1-3 icons and nanos per profession.
The most logical way is to scale the nanos so the cost VS benefit is proportionate with earlier nanos, but just raise the costs (QL) till you need to make sacrifices to cast them. HP or better drain? your choice :)
So yes, in 100% problemsolving "what is the best equipment" it indeed might be useless as you say, but in the scope where it makes the player feel they make a choice, it is worth it.
When you have everything you have beaten the game.
If you need to roll one toon for an evade setup, and another for nano-oriented combat, then the balancing has succeed, when those options are about equal in power. (the more active one [nanos, specials, perk-chains] being more powerful, as active play should be rewarded over passive play [evades])
Kind Regards
-Ariensky
PS. My plan is to work on those nano graphs this weekend :)
then we can get the cost VS power factor analytically.
So I am the troll right? I am the one speaking against myself. Only thing you have proved with this, is your bias against anything, that would not benefit you. And several people know this, thats why several people does not take you seriously. And consistent you say? Reread, you must have some mental problems I guess, anyway I am done with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obtena
Have a nice day.
Like atrox soldiers who cannot cast all of their AMS's? Enforcers being forced to perk CoNC so that they do not sacrifice things necessary for gameplay? Engineers being unable to maintain a decent attack rating and cast all their pets and buffs in a setup without being forced to perk AI tech 3? Agents being forced to perk AI tech 3 in some situations as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by Obtena
What it actually sounds like is you are choosing to ignore the sacrifices other professions do make. You are not even arguing about the stats on the nano, merely that it is wrong for things to be difficult for setups to achieve. The only way to do exactly what you say is to have 1 cookie cutter choice for every profession that can also do everything. **** that.
Players are fine never reaching 3000 weapon skill and hitting the final level of perk tiers and players are just as fine having parts of their toolset that sit just out of reach.
Then give it a 90% NR def check, so that traders could use this nano more effectively. You have to remember it is a 2500 nuke in pvp that heals 2400 every 4 seconds. That is massive and if traders are made to rely on this nano then we are screwed by the same issue that got the drains nerfed. If we rely on a tool that conversely harms our opponents, then it cannot be balanced well for all situations. It either lands too easily, heals too much, hardly lands enough, or does not heal enough. How can we not make it useless without making it overpowered?Quote:
Originally Posted by Saetos
Rather than trying to make the health drains so important we should be focusing on making them supplement the trader profession's survival. We need a core defense, and with that we would have no reason to complain about these health drains. If we cannot divert away from forcing ourselves to rely on these health drains we are going to end up with a trader cyberdeck in place of our weapons.
Yup, because nothing you said has anything to do with the topic of the thread. If you want to argue with me about how I'm contradicting myself, send a PM. If you want to talk about trader nanos, this thread is for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stompbox
See, that's where you are confused. How many combination of buffs and gear can an enfo or soldier come up with to cast there nanos? More than 1? OK, I rest my case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatester
I'm not debating if there are some sacrifices to be made to cast something. That would actually be an improvement to the scenario traders have now. This is a much greater problem that isn't related to sacrifice, it's related to simply giving a profession a choice to gear up to use a toolset. An enfo doesn't need CONC to cast their nanos, they can get CM, or use some HUD/UTIL items as well. That's a CHOICE they have. I suspect the same with soldiers. Traders aren't given that choice. There is only one way to gear up to cast this nano.
All right, enough. Do NOT make me go back through 21 pages of this thread and edit out all of the bickering, because if I do that, I'll just be closing the thread for Saetos to reopen without said bickering. Get a grip on yourselves, please.
If Traders get CM they can remove 4 pieces of Scouts in exchange for more favorable options.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obtena
Not that I agree with it, just pointing out that you're simply blowing smoke.
Simply put, the nano needs some form of significant increase over the previous nano, or the nanoskill requirements of the entire line need to be reduced to the level that they can be cast with one drain running.
Do traders benefit from more nanoskills? Yes.
Simply put, there is no sacrifice. If I have 200 extra weapon skill on a toon, I can land hits and perks more easily, which is similar to nanos landing more easily with more skill. In this case, having extra nano skills has to potential to allow you to cast a slightly stronger tool, which is comparable to perks hitting slightly higher damage tiers.
Rather than thinking down the line that a harder to use nano should drain 3500 max health and do 7000 damage, I would prefer it be viewed as an extension of the benefit to increasing casting effectiveness. Traders should not and will not be twinking full nanoskill setups to use this health drain, they will do so because twinking nanoskills improves their overall toolset. That 200 points of weapon skill does not increase perk damage by 2000 points on every perk and it should not do the same for nano beyond their intended level of effectiveness.
If this final level of health drain is truly as useless as people want to make it sound, then ignore it. Not every tool needs to be overly powerful because it is a little harder to use and honestly I would be happy with even more variations with even higher casting requirements that should be concievably impossible for players to use. How many of you can actually say "I love not having anything better to cast when I get CM, twink nanoskills, or land both drains." That is what this is, you guys are working from the top down and that is the entirely incorrect way of viewing these health drains. You have a health drain that works without any skill drains running, you have a better one for when the first drain is running, you have an even better drain when you have both skill drains running, and it just gets better as you get more skills. Why do you guys want to eliminate "better" nanos in exchange for nanos that take no effort?
This is a fairly useless post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatester
This nano is just barely in the realm of castable by endgame setups with no room for nanoskill improvement. That's pretty unacceptable.
Maybe I'm overlooking something here but I've still yet to see a valid argument against my thought that it should not be required to cast two drains in a full nano casting setup to be able to use the top nano in this line.
I would accept the line of thought that casting top tier nanos requires a sacrifice in equipment configuration if that was extending to all offensive nanos. Currently it is not and is only applied to the one nano that is required to be used as a means of defense. Their is nothing overtly spectacular about this nano versus the one preceding it as has been pointed out by Gatester so I guess I'm having a hard time understanding where the huge opposition about at least having the skill requirements looked over again is coming from.
I'm not trying to start a flame war by any means here just trying to better understand the opposing point of view.
That's because there isn't a valid argument against it, so there won't be any responses to it. A general rule is this: if it cannot be trolled, it will be ignored.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whealer
There is not that benefit in getting more nanoskills. Anyone just needs enough nanoskills to hit the target or cast a nano. It can't be compared to attack rating since you get more than just hit or miss, increased AR means increased damage and crits so everybody always benefits more from each point of AR added.
"Casting" professions are always penalized because they need more nanoskills and have higher nanoskills requirements for their nanos and higher defense skilll requirements for attack nanos than non casting professions and are at the same time nerfed in AR because of the profession template and the lower AR they got from equipment and buffs so increasing their weapon damage is hard and their nano damage/effect is static.
:) I will try to give you one then :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Whealer
Why do people play shades?
They have long and complicated chains of perks, need to be behind targets..
Why don't everyone play Adventurer?
The answer is challenge, when you get bored with having an easy time you do something more challenging.
and for the shade the extra effort means an extra reward.
I have it the same way with the trader nanos.
If I just need to execute one nano, then it is right back to what soldiers do: weapon damage.
with 2 AC nanos, 2 Drain nanos and a health drain I have the option of a combination or specialisation, if I only have time to cast 2 or 3. in effect a choice.
on top of that the laddering of skill drains is because of casting one line, then one from the other etc. you should know the drill :)
I find that mechanic fascinating, a way to teach players that nanos is not just -one- single thing, it is layers that can be stacted, if you have a good grasp.
Rather simple actually as they have different names and aper in the NCU, for me it adds complexity, which is what I like about AO. It adds lifetime to AO, as a new player can keep learning and experience something new.
So which AC debuff should you cast first? the big one or the one with lowest resistance? What about casting a drain first, so the mob will be less dangerous while you cast the AC or health debuff?
To me a good and interesting situation to be put in, and having to cast multiple nanos, instead of just one over and over again(NTs have complained about that situation)
Thank you for the question Whealer
I hope you find this point valid ;)
But to me my former post about having (nearly) unreachable nanos indeed is valid.
Don't you get tired of having "won the game", by having everything, and nothing else to do?
By having hard to get things, you challenge and create diversity, some go for it, some don't. I see it as FC's fault if I have all nanos and no more to do, but if -I- choose to skip a nano, it is my- choice and responsibility.
I am the one in charge, not FC.
A little gimmick that some will see and some don't, but we will all experience it :)
<3 for more nanos, in the optimal world for me, you would have QL 300 drains and need 4-5-6 of those laddered (as you do in low lvl Trader play) to cast it.
Remember that time in ToTW where you had to ladder 4 drains to cast the best health drain, wasn't that fun?
If not, then I would recommend another profession for you, as laddering indeed is unique to traders (and MPs), there are many professions, where you can cast the nanos without drains (but depending on how much evade/HP you want, you might have to change some equipment, again a choice of the player)
Kind Regards
-Ariensky
Why? Why does it matter if there are "uncastable" limits and how do you even know how much nanoskills a trader would have post-balancing? If there was a 3000 nanoskill req drain with 10000 damage and 5000 healing would you honestly complain that you could not cast it or just admit that it would be nice to have but is unrealistic so it merely exists?Quote:
Originally Posted by SultryVoltron
FC should just delete that final health drain. Now give me an argument against that.
Yeah, you need MORE nanoskills to hit the target...that is the point of twinking nanoskills. For all the complaints about traders not landing their toolset I would say they would benefit from more. Are you actually saying you do not need more nanoskills to land offensive nanos or are you just contradicting yourself?Quote:
Originally Posted by madmax
You do not get increased damage past MBS. More critting would take significant amounts of additional AR. The benefits are just what I said, higher perk damage and higher chance to hit your target. This nanoline is exactly like that because more nanoskills gives you higher damage and healing, and a higher chance to hit. You are trying to compare crit rate to nanoskill effectiveness, which is not what I am trying to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by madmax
None of my professions have issues where they are unable to cast their nanos, and the "penalized" casters are the ones with excess nanoskills in all cases. My enforcer can be debuffed by 30 points and cast NOTHING (and I am overtwinked for nanoskills), my MP can cast most of its toolset even after being drained by a trader.Quote:
Originally Posted by madmax
The non-casters are the ones penalized by being forced to twink nanoskills at all just to cast their toolset. On that same note, casters should not be forced to twink weapon skills if they do not truly benefit from those weapons.
Just a little side point here, but have you traders ever considered how it would be if other professions had nanos that scaled like the health drain in difficulty to cast? The effect drains would have on players would be substantially more useful against casters, rather than now where it has minimal effect because most casters have 100's of extra nanoskills. Rather than being upset that its only traders getting this "sharp" curve in difficulty on one toolset, why not push for all professions to follow this more difficult to use example?
There's no point in making nanos that cannot be cast by average players. How the change that is irrelevant. Is deleting the nano the best idea? Probably not. Would it get the job done? Yeah.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatester
Then there should be no reward for being an above-average player? In truth, I cannot disagree with you completely because you are right, it is not necessary to make difficult to use tools. However, that does not mean the players that want things they can achieve are any less correct either.Quote:
Originally Posted by SultryVoltron
What it will become is a decision by FC in regards to player effort vs reward. They will either make difficult to obtain levels of skill that benefit particular choices only or they will give every setup equal access and make the differences incredibly subtle between one setup and another. Neither option is wrong, it merely appeals to different players, and there is no way for either of us to win subjective arguments.
Difficulty to obtain should reward with a certain level of usefulness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatester
For example, a Trader casting the top health drain will lose out on an effective AS and a fair amount of weapon damage. The +200 damage does not make up for the loss of weapon damage, which it definitely should.
In this case, there is no setup variety. I've got no problems with the nano being hard to cast, but it's currently too out of reach for "less than perfect" setups, and it has barely any increased effect considering how much you give up to cast it.
Making an entire equip just to cast ONE nano that's 8% better than the previous, a setup of which incurs very, very little other benefits and sacrifices way too much damage is useless.
Either make all lines like this or none of them. There.