Friday with Means - March 4th, 2011 - Montreal Party Registration

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Originally Posted by Redesine

Blablablæhblæhnblæh?

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Take a shot of that same anti-conspiracy medicine :rolleyes: you sound like a bad broken record and your "su****ion" is laughable. Get over yourself, don't read FWM if you don't want the information that is available here. You'll get a launcher message telling you when there's a patch for the new engine and the balance changes, and you can avoid any information about how sickness affects development, staying in joyous limbo till that glorious day.

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Originally Posted by Redesine

And I would certainly like to be able to raise concerns myself if I have them without the atmosphere of you-may-not-speak-ill-of-FC that's rife at the moment.

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We've been over this. Like, you and I have had this conversation. People are free to "speak ill" of us if they want. That's not an issue or a concern. Take a look at Wrangeline - There's been plenty they've railed on us about over the last while and, even though I may not personally see eye-to-eye with them, they're welcome to their opinion because of how they phrase it and how they go about it. There is a MASSIVE difference between, say, "I was wanting the engine out before now, don't understand why it's taking so long, and am rather upset over this whole process" and "omfg f u FC how dare you LIE to us again and again and again u cant keep ur PROMISES u keep making ur lying all the time u suck fc and how dare you lie about being sick ur not sick u liars **** u!!!1!" Surely you can see the difference between the two, correct?

As far as stuff like this thread goes, it's sad to watch but at the same time it's really the same ten/fifteen names that pop up week after week to act like idiots and spew nonsense; an extremely tiny sample-size of the overall player base and a list of nicknames which we've learned to laugh at as soon as we see a new post from them. A small, dedicated troupe of trolls, while annoying, doesn't bring me down - You gotta work a lot harder than the kinda stuff seen in this thread to put a frown on my face.

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Originally Posted by Anarrina

Maybe its because I deal with sick people day in, and day out, but I don't think I've ever been so personally disappointed in the forum base until I saw attacks on their person for being seriously ill, and this is probably the only time I'll ever say this to the group as a whole. Some of you need to get a bit of perspective on what constitutes life and death matters.

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As you work in the medical field you certainly know that influenza is not typically life threatening unless you are a child or really old, and even then people don't usually die from influenza, they die from secondary respiratory infections.

So to all the people pleading for "us", the vocally disappointed forums goers, to lighten up and feel some sort of human pity it's hard to feel super sorry for a common virus with an incubation period of 1-4 days and a typical run of 7 days. Not life threatening at all. I'd feel different if everyone had gotten yellow fever or something like ebola.

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Originally Posted by Mastablasta

There's communication of hope and expectations.

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This is not religion. More is clearly needed than messages of hope :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Noobius76

But you yourself are free to complain about us voicing those opinions when it's super duper easy for you to skip them. How does that work exactly?

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It's that whole pot calling the kettle black thing.

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Originally Posted by Noobius76

And what will it be next time, jupiter alligned with venus?

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My money's on rising oil prices next.

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Originally Posted by vallikat

I cannot believe the hatred in this thread and quite honestly this is the last place I would expect to encounter this level of outright disregard for your fellow human beings.

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Again I'd like to reiterate that influenza IS NOT A LIFE THREATENING ILLNESS to middle aged game designers. Not one had triple bypass surgery. No one got hit by a car. No one has terminal cancer.

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Originally Posted by Mastablasta

staying in joyous limbo till that glorious day.

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You must be referring to the currently limbo then.

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Originally Posted by quieter456

Really great thread. I'm so proud of all of you.

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Your praise is too kind Master.

Kopecz, the point is that it takes an exceptionally narrow-minded person to take the time when someone says "pretty much the whole team's been sick to the flu this week" to call them out on dodging from their duties, rather than keeping their mouths shut. Life-threatning disease or not.

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Originally Posted by vallikat

I don't actually recall calling you out by name Redesine. In fact, I'm sure I didn't. I'm sure, in fact, that I was speaking in general terms about this thread as a whole without pointing to any specific post. I have not, nor will I, go back and read any thing you specifically had to say in it because nothing I said was specifically about you. You might also conclude from that statement that I never had reason to doubt you specifically, so you can keep your forgiveness. I do not want or require it.

If you have any question about my feeling about this game or this community, I invite you to come to any GSP show at any time, but particularly those which take place on the eastern time evening because those are the ones that I'm most likely to be at.

Thanks and have a truly wonderful day!

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No, you didn't call me by name. And yes I reacted strongly. You did, however call out the entire community, specifically those who are unhappy with FC.

Why are you surprised that you offeded someone if you make such broad statements about your disgust with people in the community? If someone said "You Americans disgust me" you can be sure a lot of people will be offended regardless of whom they are calling out by name.

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Originally Posted by Mastablasta

Something about conspiracies... su****ion (Eh?)... Don't read it if you don't like it... wait for the engine...

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Seriously? Did you read anything of what I said? Specifically the part about me not caring about the engine and not being on one side or the other?

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Originally Posted by Kintaii

We've been over this. Like, you and I have had this conversation. People are free to "speak ill" of us if they want. That's not an issue or a concern. Take a look at Wrangeline - There's been plenty they've railed on us about over the last while and, even though I may not personally see eye-to-eye with them, they're welcome to their opinion because of how they phrase it and how they go about it. There is a MASSIVE difference between, say, "I was wanting the engine out before now, don't understand why it's taking so long, and am rather upset over this whole process" and "omfg f u FC how dare you LIE to us again and again and again u cant keep ur PROMISES u keep making ur lying all the time u suck fc and how dare you lie about being sick ur not sick u liars **** u!!!1!" Surely you can see the difference between the two, correct?

As far as stuff like this thread goes, it's sad to watch but at the same time it's really the same ten/fifteen names that pop up week after week to act like idiots and spew nonsense; an extremely tiny sample-size of the overall player base and a list of nicknames which we've learned to laugh at as soon as we see a new post from them. A small, dedicated troupe of trolls, while annoying, doesn't bring me down - You gotta work a lot harder than the kinda stuff seen in this thread to put a frown on my face.

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I'm glad you personally are open to concerns and criticism. Thank you for that.

My personal grudge is against the part of the community (again a very vocal minority) who seem to think it is not allowed and will try very hard to leave you (or at least your company) to your own devices. I'm concerned about this because if they manage to scare away complainers then why would the company bother to develop anything? If there is no negative feedback then there's no point in putting resources back into the game.

I'm sure the team are dedicated to making those changes, but from a corporate angle, why should FC keep the AO resourse flow if everyone appears to be happy with little or no change or progress?

I certainly understand the difference between a constructive complaint and a... ruder one. However, to dismiss them as trolls is a little strange. Isn't the customer always right when it comes to these things? ... At least publicy even if you do have a laugh or a moan in the office.

I don't know if they are trolls or not. I only know that my own complaints are only made because I love the game and would love to see it reach the potential I know it has. I have to assume most other complaints are made with the same feelings towards the game regardless of how unpleasantly they might treat the staff.

Thanks for the response, anyway. Hope all is... umm... well! ;-)

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Originally Posted by Redesine

My personal grudge is against the part of the community (again a very vocal minority) who seem to think it is not allowed

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Do you have some quotes of this? I haven't gone through the entire thread myself, and I'd like to see what you're referring to.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth56

Kopecz, the point is that it takes an exceptionally narrow-minded person to take the time when someone says "pretty much the whole team's been sick to the flu this week" to call them out on dodging from their duties, rather than keeping their mouths shut. Life-threatning disease or not.

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I've never said they've been lying about being sick or that they've been dodging their duties. What I HAVE said is I find it highly dubious that the entire dev team is out of commission for the exact same 7 days and not a single iota of information could be released to us in any of the following forms:

1. Rebalance documents
2. Engine stuff
3. Non-engine stuff
4. New textures or Asian heads

As Autohead pointed out earlier.

I PERSONALLY feel that even if the dev team had not been ill, we would have received some other excuse for why things cannot move ahead in a timely fashion. I feel Rocker hit the nail on the head when he said:

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Originally Posted by Quitter123

On Friday Means can explain why [goals] weren't met - which strain of ebola virus hit the dev team, how many Chinese graphic designers were caught in a mine shaft at their second job, which AO database had to be rebuilt from the ground up because the original version was made out of lincoln logs and duct tape, etc.

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Originally Posted by Kopecz

So to all the people pleading for "us", the vocally disappointed forums goers, to lighten up and feel some sort of human pity it's hard to feel super sorry for a common virus with an incubation period of 1-4 days and a typical run of 7 days. Not life threatening at all. I'd feel different if everyone had gotten yellow fever or something like ebola.

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Influenza is the 10th most frequent killer of people living in Canada aged 35-65. The 12th most frequent killer of people living in Canada aged 25-34.

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Originally Posted by Kopecz

Again I'd like to reiterate that influenza IS NOT A LIFE THREATENING ILLNESS to middle aged game designers. Not one had triple bypass surgery. No one got hit by a car. No one has terminal cancer.

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Influenza is on the top 10 list along with heart disease and cancer which are higher up the list.

Continued flame baiting will result in infractions.

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Originally Posted by Redesine

My personal grudge is against the part of the community (again a very vocal minority) who seem to think it is not allowed

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The problem being that there's noone saying criticism is not allowed, but martyrs in the whiner crowd going completely balistic over the new engine and delays or whatever going on with it. I am personally one of the largest critics in the AO community over the years, but I don't go into a pathetic fit of rage over a week's delay due to people being sick. Look at the posts in this thread from people kicking people who are down. Tell me you can sit and look at the posts that basically say "I hope you die because you lie about being seriously ill" and tell me you don't think that's pathetic, whiny and grotesque. Who comes up to you when you're sick and call you a liar, demanding you go back to work? And what would you think about someone who did it. Pathetic little smugs out in anonymous internet land. Get over yourself and your righteous anger.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth56

Do you have some quotes of this? I haven't gone through the entire thread myself, and I'd like to see what you're referring to.

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It is probably worth going through the whole thread. The lunatic fringe cult of FC underlings typically request that people who voice a complaint just "quit and find another game".

Everyone who is paying for this game has the right to voice either complaint or praise. If some express disappointment or distrust, so be it. I love the game, but personally think FWM does more harm than good. It sets up disappointment in the form of false hope and expectations. It is almost comical at this point.

The game is great, but not without flaws. The communication is spotty at best, but not completely devoid of merit. We do receive small glimmers of hope, infrequent though they may be. We also get a healthy dose of "best guesses", "we hope", and "almost certainly" that repeatedly fail to materialize.

I'm still waiting for my eight-legged spider.

Seven will only get you so far, Means.

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Originally Posted by Mastablasta

Get over yourself and your righteous anger.

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I was reading your post thinking it was relatively fair up until you spoiled the illusion with this sentence.

I'm sorry but it just doesn't correlate to the rest of what you just said about "martyrs", "going completely balistic", "kicking people who are down", "grotesque" people, "pathetic little smugs" and exaggerated messages about wishing death on the AO devs. Nothing I said was even remotely as stong as that.

So how about this: I will if you will.

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Originally Posted by Mastablasta

The problem being that there's noone saying criticism is not allowed, but martyrs in the whiner crowd going completely balistic over the new engine and delays or whatever going on with it. I am personally one of the largest critics in the AO community over the years, but I don't go into a pathetic fit of rage over a week's delay due to people being sick.

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That's your description of ppl and what they'ev said. And I can't say I'm much surprised given how you usually respond to anyone that isn't praising FC.

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Originally Posted by Mastablasta

Look at the posts in this thread from people kicking people who are down. Tell me you can sit and look at the posts that basically say "I hope you die because you lie about being seriously ill" and tell me you don't think that's pathetic, whiny and grotesque.

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Maybe that's what you think. Personally I haven't seen anything even remotely close to that. You are making stuff up.

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Originally Posted by Mastablasta

Who comes up to you when you're sick and call you a liar, demanding you go back to work? And what would you think about someone who did it.

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Personally I think it's pointless to debate or complain about the team getting sick or how sick you need to be to stay home or anything along those lines.

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Originally Posted by Mastablasta

Pathetic little smugs out in anonymous internet land. Get over yourself and your righteous anger.

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It is however nothing like what you are trying to describe to finally lose patience after years of no real news except a never ending flood of explenations and excuses as to why there is still nothing to show after these years. It's normal. Any other service provider that sets a date for a sorely needed upgrade of any kind which is postponed for years and if they ignore questions more or less completely as is the case here then that service provider is going to hear about it in a not so very positive tone. If anything mmo providers get to face very little complaints because unlike your isp or phone company you can't just call them up and tell them what you think.


Again.. With some openness most of this wold be avoided.

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Originally Posted by Kintaii

You gotta work a lot harder than the kinda stuff seen in this thread to put a frown on my face.

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You seem a little paranoid here. No one is trying to make you feel down, sad, depressed. It's actually kind of offensive you think people are trying to intentionally make you feel that way. :(

All people want is to be treated with a little bit of respect. Peoples expectation's are only made based on what funcom staff say. So really, you should learn how to interact with all types of customers. For example, when you're going to make a promise/set deadline, use the very least possible. Like when yall used to say downtime would be 4 hours, and you would have it done in 2 hours. You could say 2 hours but that doesn't leave room for error. Works the same really

These sum it up quite nicely

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Originally Posted by Autohead

snip

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Why couldn't the subjects mentioned last week be discussed.

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Originally Posted by Wrangeline

snip +
FC could save themselves so many problems if they just were more professional in how and when they give information to people.

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I'll await a "proper" response.

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Originally Posted by Mastablasta

ause you lie about being seriously ill" and tell me you don't think that's pathetic, whiny and grotesque.

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What is pathetic, whiny and grotesque is blind liars like you, nowhere in this thread did anybody wish death upon the AO team, but being that blind FC devotee you are i doubt you can see that.

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Originally Posted by Haxi

It is probably worth going through the whole thread. The lunatic fringe cult of FC underlings typically request that people who voice a complaint just "quit and find another game".

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having endured dozens upon dozens of friends leave this game for various reasons over the years (some completely RL related, but many due to issues with the game itself and the direction its taking), I cringe with disgust when i see someone post "then just quit if your not happy." they clearly are living in a delusional world where AO exists for them. this is something that has no warrent ever being posted. i think the people that express the "just quit the game then" rhetoric are almost equal to the <insert comical name here> who have berated the Dev team for being sick. both are in the wrong, have crossed a line and have no excuse for it.

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Originally Posted by Noobius76

Again.. With some openness most of this wold be avoided.

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They have been open, people like you still say they are lying and that their openness was a lie. Means and Co. say "we are set for this time unless something happens." A good % of the time something DOES NOT happen and they get their patch out. The only times this is not happening lately is 1.) The Engine, which they provide revision dates each time, and normally a reason for why it was delayed. 2.) Balance documents not being able to be released when they were hoping to.

The 2nd one is simply because of the amount of work going into it. During the Eng document revision I had around 20 docs on my system BEFORE it even went to the playerbase. These things undergo huge work with the professionals as they try to balance the content out properly, it's what the professionals are there for in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Haxi

Personally I think an honest impartial observer would walk away with two conclusions: The playerbase of AO is both passionate, and gullible. The developers of AO clearly love the game, but have very poor project management and communication skills.

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That is my conclusion too..
and knowing that issue, it is something that can be fixed and worked on :)

.. sadly I see no willingness to improve.
I would love an "We can see our earlier deadlines have been off 25% of the time, we have set a day off, where the whole team had a conference on how to estimate time-schedules, with the knowledge of past project.
This conference will of-cause not delay the MP documents from coming next Friday as promised, as it was a scheduled event ;)"

Again, if you have people saying "you are right, you are good", people screaming at you, and people coming with constructive feedback, it is way more pleasing and cheap to listen to the praise.
I can see the posts are read, I can see they(FC) are intelligent people.
Kintaii and Means often show that.
The disappointing part is the silence and non-reaction to issues and feedback.
When they do act they do so with skill though :)

That said A LOT of issues has been fixed lately.
QL choice when TSing and a bunch of other stuff.
Sadly they have been coupled with unexplained things like:

• Item Shop being introduced without a talk about point or pricing-scheme/layout.

A lot of outcries and hotfixes could have been avoided.

"bank terminal is too expensive, a price that high should cover all toons"
Smart move: Divide price by 8
FC move: when you buy, give it to all toons on account.

now the system is in place, it is irreparable..
If the debate with price examples had been there before implementation; with time on the test server I can honestly say that I would have gotten more FunCom points.
But with the current system I choose to buy FallOut 3, and all expansion packs to 1/4 the price of what the portable bank or GMS costs.. one texture; the ICC armor also costs more than the current price of FallOut 3
Which has more texture/value for money?

Not my definition of "micro" transaction.


I use that as an example of that bad planning/management.
Sure, users will always cry for "cheaper", but putting a usefull, but still novelty item at a cost 4 times that of a HUGE 3D award-winning game..
To me it is a no-brainer that the price should be less.
(to those curious, the portable bank is still more than the release-price of Fallout 3)

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Originally Posted by Haxi

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Originally Posted by Technogen

YES a large number of people saw the new engine in Oslo at the last part. There was even video of it Means had on his camera he was going to show, but someone stole the camera.

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So why not show us now? He was going to right? Someone set up a donation page to buy FC a copy of fraps or just crack it for them already.

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A very logical and hence valid argument.
Means -did- put some words on that in a post though, mentioning he is a perfectionist not wanting anything to leave the office before it is more perfect..

That is an approach I disagree with though..
See that is the benefit of information versus silence.
I had the same "why are they doing it like that? It is strange"
While now I can offer feedback as to: I disagree: if you let people in and use "we showed it to people" as an argument, then you should show a video clip as well..
To me that is indirectly demanding hundred dollar plane-tickets to see an argument..
akin to "I am right because of [pay 100$ to see argument]"
But it is a choice, and I am glad that he at least stand by it :)
actually I am proud that he stands by it, and defends it.
If it is to me, you should always defend/reason your choice, rather than give teh silent treatment.

(I have been searching for the post, but not able to find it :( But Means personally took on the responsibility of it, as a deliberate choice)

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Originally Posted by Technogen

I don't know, I'm not Means, and you aren't either. Maybe he got so pissed off how people were reacting to their work. Or maybe FC Corp said "Hey that's got a lot of AoC's hidden stuff in it, and we don't want to pre-release that info, so hold off on that."

Once again, Means does not have the end say to everything in AO.

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Why not just write "I think he is mad", then we can debate your thoughts, instead of putting up a lot of defenses "I don't know", "I'm not Means", "Maybe"
and -THEN- put in what you think, but masking it in layers of "it is not me saying this"

I like people standing by their words, not hypocrisy (saying one thing and doing another) If you have theories of why. That is fine :) If you have no idea. Fine.
But don't come with "I have no idea" -and- "I have this idea".

May 8th, 2008, 14:06:37

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Originally Posted by warrioro

according to my inside source the new engine is delayed indefinatly. This is due to be announced in the next few weeks - so brace yourselves

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May 8th, 2008, 14:08:54

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Originally Posted by Silirrion

Unless your 'inside sources' know something I don't then I think you should try and avoid spreading malicious and false rumors. The work on the engine is continuing as planned and we still hope to be able to launch it later in the year.

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Patience is a virtue, but can it also be a sin?
(current year is 2011)

Kind Regards
- Ariensky

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Originally Posted by SoapTarder

having endured dozens upon dozens of friends leave this game for various reasons over the years (some completely RL related, but many due to issues with the game itself and the direction its taking), I cringe with disgust when i see someone post "then just quit if your not happy." they clearly are living in a delusional world where AO exists for them.

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Most of the time this put forward to people that claim that the dev team is lying about the engine to string players along and the only reason they are still playing is because of the hope for the engine.

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Originally Posted by Technogen

Most of the time this put forward to people that claim that the dev team is lying about the engine to string players along and the only reason they are still playing is because of the hope for the engine.

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its still a bad response, either way. someone once told me a story, where a customer said to them, "Im not giving you any more of my business, and Im gonna tell all my friends not to either!". my friend responded, "if any of your friends are like you, i don't want their business either!"

but, in this case i don't think funcom would promote this message for any of their games, and i dont think people telling other people to quit are winning brownie points with anyone. it doesn't just happen in the forums, there are also people ingame on the ooc channel that say the exact same thing, advising others to quit. its not a message that should ever be posted, even if its directed at one person or a few, because it has larger ramifications. just my opinion though.

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Originally Posted by Technogen

and the only reason they are still playing is because of the hope for the engine.

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Personally I don't need the engine for the engines sake. I haven't played AO for its graphics and so the graphics wont be an issue for me in the future either. I did look forward to the engine for the potential big increase in players. As it is, the game is almost not playable any more for me. There's just not enough people. NW is dead, BS doesn't run for large parts of the day, even with daily quests added, it's hard to find teams for the things I want to do and so on. It seems evident by now that the population isn't going to go up a lot without something major like a new engine and such so for me personally, the engine is the last hope I have for the game becoming fun to play again.