Adjusting Challenger and Challenger Procs for Enforcers.

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Nov 15th, 2009, 20:53:48
Gatester

Adjusting Challenger and Challenger Procs for Enforcers.

Currently every discussion about enforcer offense includes the 5% chance to activate LE proc Raging Blow. No enforcer is happy that our Attack Rating is dependant on a random chance tool and this thread will detail my solution to the problem.

NOTE: This idea will NOT increase enforcer Attack Rating in any way, shape, or form. This suggestion merely allows enforcers to control when they will hit the 3.3-3.6k Attack Rating stats.

Step One:
Replace the Raging Blow proc with a reasonable proc. Perhaps a high level AC boost similar to Form of Troll buffing.

Step Two:
Modify our APF challenger, Valiant Challenger to Behemoth, so that it stacks with our Pre-SL challenger line. Valiant Challenger MUST have a Challenger Line Nano running (similar to fixer perk actions) before it can be used.

Step Three:
Give Valiant Challenger a 60 second duration and give it a 60 second lockout on use.

Step Four:
Reduce the Nanoskills innoperative on Valiant Challenger to 10 seconds, or removed the Psychological Modifications -4000 debuff (similar to soldiers) so that taunts can be used in case it is used while raiding.

Results of this change:

Enforcers will be able to control when they buff their attack rating, and their capped AR is exactly the same as it is currently. The drawback for control is nanoskills being locked out for 10-15 seconds longer and more nano is required by the enforcer to cast both challengers.

Other benefits are the ability for enforcers to choose between a rage proc for pvp and the Highway type proc rather than being forced to use the Challenger proc in almost all situations.
Nov 16th, 2009, 04:45:33
Kinkstaah

I agree with what you are saying but you wont see any kind of agreement here unfortunately.

A better idea is to have the buff "stack" with say a 50% chance to proc, (maybe 15, making 18 reg hits required for it to build up, about ~30 seconds?) at each increment? making 2 with each proc building up, to a maximum of 252 (currently), and with procs proccing at maximum refreshing the duration.

Same concept could apply to rage, too. And a LOT of other procs (say, agent procs with a 5% chance to remove a root, vs 100% chance to lower its duration by a little)
Nov 16th, 2009, 13:37:07
Gatester

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinkstaah

I agree with what you are saying but you wont see any kind of agreement here unfortunately.

That just sounds funny to me :p

Anyways, as long as we can remove the "random chance" to making enforcers effective against any def setup prof then it would probly be more regular player friendly. Also, there will not be a viable Offensive/Defensive variation in setups, as Means was proposing profs have in the future, if every setup requires defense to survive long enough to proc their offense.

I can see some problems with my proposal but almost anything is an improvement over what we currently have, and your suggestion for simply a higher proccing rate boost would even be substantially improved.
Nov 16th, 2009, 14:27:47
Saetos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatester

Step One:
Replace the Raging Blow proc with a Highway type buff. It will boost max health by 1000, heal for 1000, and boost enforcer AAD by 100 points.

<sigh> do you guys seriously need MORE evades?
Nov 16th, 2009, 14:43:42
Stick

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saetos

<sigh> do you guys seriously need MORE evades?

wit is getting nerfed anyway, so why not?
Nov 16th, 2009, 15:04:42
erozc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saetos

<sigh> do you guys seriously need MORE evades?

And more AR on command, too - never mind if max possible is the same. So far enfoes have downplayed their very considerable AR by stating "but it's just if you count procs".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stick

wit is getting nerfed anyway, so why not?

Use Sphere instead. Oh, wait, it's a breed perk action. So is wit, by the way. So it affects your adversaries too and it's in no way enf specific.
Nov 16th, 2009, 17:47:55
Gatester

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saetos

<sigh> do you guys seriously need MORE evades?

If you have an alternative I'd be glad to hear it. Something you guys need to deal with is that enfs need def, and still do well to work with one of the lowest def stats of any prof (do some actual calcs before spouting some nonesense).

Quote:

Originally Posted by eroz_c

And more AR on command, too - never mind if max possible is the same. So far enfoes have downplayed their very considerable AR by stating "but it's just if you count procs".

Seriously, give me a good reason why a profession that can ONLY kill with perks should not have access to their attack rating boosts without random chance? Wouldn't hurt to see other profs actually have to struggle and hope their toolset randomly kicks in during a fight, how about setting adventurer heals on an LE proc basis only, or maybe turn LE nukes into a proc action based on swinging their nanodeck at players?
Nov 16th, 2009, 20:14:19
Hacre

Enfs wouldn't need more def if more HP was a good thing all of the time.

I'd keep pushing FC on -that-, tbh.

It's all well and good adjusting perks and toolsets but in the end it's all sitting on top of an inherently broken system.

An Enforcer taking a bigger full auto to the face than a Fixer would take an AS to the face is ridiculous.

More HP should mean it's harder to kill the target, because well, they have more HP.

100% of the time. It works against NTs and perk alphas for the most part it needs to start working against specials too.
Nov 16th, 2009, 20:49:09
Moonbolt

im with hacre on this.
challanger procs on demand for enfs would cause an outrage from the rest of the commuity cause lets face it.. the challanger procs is some of the best procs in game and getting them on demand would be very unfair to the rest of the community.

HP is supposed to be one of our defences but as it is now its not a defence.
specials perks and nukes hits us harder then they do for everyone else just cause we got more health. meaning we just get more to heal up.

more aad to us would help against those 15k FAs ... but seriulsy evades is already broken in this game, we dont need yet another evade profession.

and yes enfs do have low static AR for being so reliant on perks, but so does shades and keepers and agents. the only profession that realy hasnt needed to do the tradeoff for def vs AR is soldiers.
enfs do still have thsoe awesome AR procs tho that actually let us get a high AR on occasion wich the other professions dont.

the whole idea of 30% capping specials and not properly working absorbs is what is needing to be fixed with enfs.

there is a very simple solution to this.
give the lowest HP professions a HP boost by 2-4k from items.
remove the 30% cap from game and set a hardcap for 50% on all specials.
yes im gonna hear a big cry from opi fixers on that statement but ive asked several opi fixers in endgame nwo and they are around 14k HP selfed add 3k to that + ess + CS + doc buff adn they are almost at 20 k.

if FA capped at 7.5k - reflects, AS at 6.5k - reflects and SA at 6.5k - reflects, there would be no more need for low HP builds and more health would be fixed.

the only problem i would see with this is making AS / FA / SA overpowered at TL 5 where people would be able to cap almost 100% of the health with 1 special.
that could be circomvented by making a static hard cap thats scaling with peoples lvls instead.
like if AS caps at 6.5k at lvl 220 it would cap for 5.5k at 200, 4.5k at 190, 4k at 150, 3k at 100, 2k at 50
Nov 16th, 2009, 20:55:25
Hacre

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonbolt

im with hacre on this.
challanger procs on demand for enfs would cause an outrage from the rest of the commuity cause lets face it.. the challanger procs is some of the best procs in game and getting them on demand would be very unfair to the rest of the community.

HP is supposed to be one of our defences but as it is now its not a defence.
specials perks and nukes hits us harder then they do for everyone else just cause we got more health. meaning we just get more to heal up.

more aad to us would help against those 15k FAs ... but seriulsy evades is already broken in this game, we dont need yet another evade profession.

and yes enfs do have low static AR for being so reliant on perks, but so does shades and keepers and agents. the only profession that realy hasnt needed to do the tradeoff for def vs AR is soldiers.
enfs do still have thsoe awesome AR procs tho that actually let us get a high AR on occasion wich the other professions dont.

the whole idea of 30% capping specials and not properly working absorbs is what is needing to be fixed with enfs.

there is a very simple solution to this.
give the lowest HP professions a HP boost by 2-4k from items.
remove the 30% cap from game and set a hardcap for 50% on all specials.
yes im gonna hear a big cry from opi fixers on that statement but ive asked several opi fixers in endgame nwo and they are around 14k HP selfed add 3k to that + ess + CS + doc buff adn they are almost at 20 k.

if FA capped at 7.5k - reflects, AS at 6.5k - reflects and SA at 6.5k - reflects, there would be no more need for low HP builds and more health would be fixed.

the only problem i would see with this is making AS / FA / SA overpowered at TL 5 where people would be able to cap almost 100% of the health with 1 special.
that could be circomvented by making a static hard cap thats scaling with peoples lvls instead.
like if AS caps at 6.5k at lvl 220 it would cap for 5.5k at 200, 4.5k at 190, 4k at 150, 3k at 100, 2k at 50

This is similar to what I suggested in another thread.

A big fix that would go a long way towards solving the "more hp = bad" thing, is just applying the 50% pvp damage -after- the hard caps, so as you suggest, 7.5k FA -maximum-, 6.5k AS -maximum-, with reflect reduction on top of that. Then shift the calc so that the hardest you can be hit for is 30% or 7.5k in the case of FA, whichever is smallest, -then- apply reflect reduction.

This would also make cocoon useful again without allowing NTs to exploit low HP + absorbs.

It isn't perfect, but it's a start and better than what we have currently, where anyone apart from NTs can still take 30% smacks even after reflects if their HP is low enough.
Nov 16th, 2009, 21:05:27
Notcrattey

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatester

Seriously, give me a good reason why a profession that can ONLY kill with perks should not have access to their attack rating boosts without random chance?

LOL give shades a big AR boost please.

We are after all, dependent on perks to kill.
Nov 16th, 2009, 21:14:59
Gatester

Ok, im removing the "Highway" proc idea (since I had nothing better to put there) because apparently people have no idea what the OP is about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by notcrattey

LOL give shades a big AR boost please.

We are after all, dependent on perks to kill.

And where is the AR boost I am asking for? I'm not against shades being able to use SP perks or something more easily in pvp, but I have not asked for a single increase in enforcer AR in this thread.

Gonna require a bit of comprehension skills in this thread. I figured you guys would be clueless about how this suggestion would actually work but seriously try thinking about it? This makes enforcer AR available without random chance, not incredibly easy to use. Look at the drawbacks, compare them to a proc that can in fact fire at the start of a fight or never, then come back with some reasonable replies other than "enforcers should not have decent AR when they want".
Nov 16th, 2009, 22:30:16
sultryvoltron

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatester

Ok, im removing the "Highway" proc idea (since I had nothing better to put there) because apparently people have no idea what the OP is about.

And where is the AR boost I am asking for? I'm not against shades being able to use SP perks or something more easily in pvp, but I have not asked for a single increase in enforcer AR in this thread.

Gonna require a bit of comprehension skills in this thread. I figured you guys would be clueless about how this suggestion would actually work but seriously try thinking about it? This makes enforcer AR available without random chance, not incredibly easy to use. Look at the drawbacks, compare them to a proc that can in fact fire at the start of a fight or never, then come back with some reasonable replies other than "enforcers should not have decent AR when they want".

People don't like it because your procs are better than theirs. If Docs could control when their deinit procs went off, people would be pissed. If Crats could control when their stun procs (RIP) went off, people would be PISSED! When you give one profession control over their randomness, then every profession needs control over their random chance abilities, and those professions with sucky random abilities need better ones. Or they could just remove them altogether and save time.
Nov 16th, 2009, 23:07:59
Obtena

I'm with most people on this one. The random procs are fine and shouldn't be changed. I would like to see more on-demand AR capabilities, but at a cost (which apparently isn't how FC thinks it should be for Atrox based on the MR love inc.)

Though if I had to choose, I would rather have a lower, static AR boost from a buff than a higher, dynamic one from a proc.
Nov 17th, 2009, 00:32:34
Kinkstaah

Procs are crap, if you rely on them. And enfs do, vs a lot of classes.

Which is why I suggested a slowly building ladder system, which increases (to current max) with every hit, which would be dependable, yet take time to build.

People will hate anything else, cause they think being killed by an enforcer justifies a nerf, due to the style enfs HAVE TO kill people (alphakilling)
Nov 17th, 2009, 01:58:44
Gatester

Quote:

Originally Posted by SultryVoltron

People don't like it because your procs are better than theirs. If Docs could control when their deinit procs went off, people would be pissed. If Crats could control when their stun procs (RIP) went off, people would be PISSED! When you give one profession control over their randomness, then every profession needs control over their random chance abilities, and those professions with sucky random abilities need better ones. Or they could just remove them altogether and save time.

The ONLY prof that relies on an LE proc to win besides Enforcers is MPs, and MPs need some work.

Comparing 1200 of 4500 init debuffing or a few points of damage add to the AR my enforcer needs to pvp is faulty logic. Apples do not equal oranges.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obtena

Though if I had to choose, I would rather have a lower, static AR boost from a buff than a higher, dynamic one from a proc.

I agree with you here, and my issue is not that the LE procs aren't good enough, but they are either instantly available or never happen but always needed. The difference between LE proc firing and not is a huge difference in AR, so a reliable bridge in between would be just fine.

Either way, proc reliant wins are the dumbest thing PVP can have, sort of why Stun procs had to go if anyone remembers those.
Nov 17th, 2009, 03:19:33
sultryvoltron

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatester

Comparing 1200 of 4500 init debuffing or a few points of damage add to the AR my enforcer needs to pvp is faulty logic. Apples do not equal oranges.

That kinda was my point. The procs are not comparable. Enf procs are good. Other's procs are great. Lots of procs are garbage, and thus can generally be ignored for PvP. I really don't see my Agent suffering in PvP by not starting up Laser Aim. I do see enfs need to start up their procs, and having played a TL7 enf it is all but mandatory.

Giving almost full control over those is not the best idea. Kink's idea isn't bad, the more you get hit the more "rage" builds up and the more damage you do. Think of it like when your Charizard (Pokemon Red/Blue ftw! The rest ftl) learns Rage. The more he gets hit, the more his attack grows.