enf changes.

just looked thru the enf perk changes.
im a bit dissapointed tbh.


form of troll:

Troll form - still useless. snare time shortnened.
Stone fist - stun duration shortened
Avalanche - stun decreased.

Manners of Mongo:

Taunt - scaling of taunt changed... still useless since enfs can go AFK while tanking nowadays w/o having to worry about agro.
Charge - dmg increased by quite alot
headbutt - stun removed, dmg increased.
Hatred - Taunt scaling increased. useless.
groin kick - stun time decreased. init debuff time decreased, '

both of the perklines changed from brawl dependency to AMS.


Mutate:

arouse anger - dmg and taunt scaling up a bit.
Cause of anger - dmg and taunt scaling up a bit.
Highway - instantly fills u up with the 2k health to max health.


the changes doesnt bother me much tbh...
they are probably good in the name of balance.
but omg omg omg they are booooooring.
FC has the options to do so much fun with the perk actions and make them viable in so many different ways.. but seriusly.. since the introduction of imongo and ieom tauts is useless on perk actions!!!!!!!!!!
i was tanking beast yesterday... 80% of the time i read up on forums while tanking.
i just alt tabbed over occasionally to fire off my perks and throw in a new imongo.
back when SL was firsrt releasd it was a pita to keep agro from NTs and shades...
back then u could realy make a difference between a good tank and a bad tank cause a bad tank would loose agro.
now...
well.
if any enf would have to perk Manners of Mongo for the taunt actions... wow.

and for the mutate perks... Enfs realy dont need more dmg ..
we are already good DDs.
we need Dmg mitigation.

You forget to take into account the damage increase that a lot of people are getting. At low levels the increased taunt will be nice for enfs, I know I had some issue holding aggro at all times on my enf in Adonis with similar level people in the past. Had to use all aggro tools available all the time to keep things going.
At endgame, the issue is less. RK can still be tricky in some cases with NTs and shades stealing aggro. But other than that, endgame aggro management has become dull and tedious.

i remember when SL first was released.. it could be a slight problem holding agro.
most enfs didnt use the taunt procs tho. and they might not look like alot of taunt but they proc very very often so in teh long run they help alot.

i was 200 when SL was released so i dont realy know hwo holding agro is in TL 5 nowadays but i realy didnt have any problem holding agro at any stage of the lvln process..

the only difference was that it required alot of work earlier, wich it sadly doesnt do at all atm.

HOLDING AGRO IS WAY TO EASY!!!!!!

I have mixed feelings about the perk changes. Some are neat, some not so neat.

This is what manners of mongo should have been, years ago, to be quite honest.
If you wanna bump up enforcers in certain categories, then id suggest making the big changes in those categories to fill in the holes in our toolset.

In PVP, enfs need more mitigation, hands down. Evades were there to help us not get overwhelmed by greens, and damn near anyone with a buttload of capping specials can drop almost any enforcer, without any pvp skill needed whatsoever.

While were forced to wait out and heal our healthbars. Often enough, i throw my enf to the wolves with the hope i can get a free teleport to B so i have time for my specials and perks to refresh, without having to waste any.

yepp i agree... i want more mitigation and less dmg from enfs.. and sure as hell we dont need taunts.

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Originally Posted by Moonbolt

yepp i agree... i want more mitigation and less dmg from enfs.. and sure as hell we dont need taunts.

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Well, not at end game we dont. Any end game enforcer can steal agg from even the most brilliantly set up shades. Docs on the other hand, well, its possible if you dont keep up on threat. But, barely.

Taunts were very much needed at low levels. I have had several low level enfs in my org constantly complain and even leave the game, because their taunts and stuff were obsolete, even going to far as to post me everything they had to spam. Some of it was good, but it wasn't enough for them.

Between the levels of 150-210, I had terrible times trying to hold aggro. I kept telling my orgmates, its ok, wait it out till dB.. and no one will ever steal agg from you again... but to make people wait that long i can see why people get infuriated.

So yeah, I can definitely see it at low levels. I know I was frustrated for a long time myself. At least now we can avoid that bit in the future. The perk changes weren't just for endgame people. Everyone should be able to benefit from them, which includes low level healers who put out way more threat than enfs can handle, which is the point!

healers only put out high amount of threath if they re using CH in SL.
there was a reason for FC to implement that.. to keep SL challanging at the lvls 150-200 and the need for use of the SL heals. except for docs that doesnt know this mechanic and CHs the enf shouldnt have any trouble keeping the agro of a healer.

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Originally Posted by Moonbolt

HOLDING AGRO IS WAY TO EASY!!!!!!

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Speaking from a perspective of both enforcer and NT in DD gear, I WISH enfs would perk taunt lines. I don't even attack s42 west boss on my NT anymore because I know aggro will go to me after a few seconds. Seen plenty of enfs who couldn't hold agg off me from apf generals and beast and their excuses were "Sorry was out of nano" "Ielement is such a useless nano, didn't bother getting it" "I'm pvp setup, so no taunts" etc.

Cala.. im sorry but u have encountered some realy crappy enfs tbh...
i spent my time while tanking beast yesterday goin thru friday with means and checking the new enf perks changes.
i spent about 10% of the fight actually looking at AO and 90% reading on forums... i still didnt loose agro once.

Enfo's need more taunts at lower levels. Specifically between 180 and 215. The lack of new, effective nanos during that time is a killer. Much like a doc being unable to heal for 35 levels. But enfo's dont have the luxury of "taunting a little". We either have aggro, or we don't. We can either take aggro when it has to be taken, or we can't.

Regards to the perk changes. Obviously a conventional alpha is history. But that does not make stuns worthless, it just makes them more useful when your target is getting ready to run. The fact that troll form will be easier to land essentially frees up the need to perk brawler. Making MoM, or Colossal Health more of an option for enfo's who wouldn't have perked it otherwise.

I read something about fast attack being added to a perk line. I wouldn't say no to it, since fast attack misses frequently on players with decent evades.

Highway acting as a heal is nice too.


@ Moonbolt - If that is true, I think it's more in line to say you did not have any high DD-ers in your raid. A decent DD would pull aggro from you in a situation like that, unless they knew you frequently afked to surf forums. 8p

Aggro is easy when it comes to end game though. Just not that easy.

In regards to MoM, I would prefer to see a complete lack of Manners. I figure enforcers are a angry brutal profession, and if we choose to be we should be able to do alot of damage. But I don't expect to be able to have the best of both worlds. So I would like to see each perk of MoM remove a good bit of HP (Along the lines of troll perks), but add a good bit of AR, + damage, and good DD perks. Consider it the "I wanna pvp and get lots of solo kills" perk line. And at the same time nerf the OPed end game defense enforcers currently enjoy in PvP.

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Originally Posted by Moonbolt

Cala.. im sorry but u have encountered some realy crappy enfs tbh...
i spent my time while tanking beast yesterday goin thru friday with means and checking the new enf perks changes.
i spent about 10% of the fight actually looking at AO and 90% reading on forums... i still didnt loose agro once.

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Maybe it's you who didn't see good NTs? But yeah I don't have problems holding aggro on my enf (that takes SPAMMING ielement, not just mongoing once though) except the encounters with heavy nano drains, like west s42 boss, so I could use taunt perks for that one. And there's lower levels problem, quite hard to hold aggro at 210-214 as already mentioned.

Enfs shouldn't be the best tanking profession ingame and also have among the highest pvp dps over time damage, and also be the fastest, and also be able to heal themselves so efficiently.

I say pick two of those and knock off the rest and enforcers will be balanced. Ideally, make them slow and require outside healing, from, you know, support professions, who currently have little to no role, since the main tanking profs don't even need them in pvp.

Discuss.

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Originally Posted by Sterva

Enfs shouldn't be the best tanking profession ingame and not need support profs in any way shape or form

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Bump for support profs being needed in this game.

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Originally Posted by Sterva

Enfs have among the highest pvp dps over time damage.

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I think this will get fixed w/ 2 second perk actions. At least then you won't see enfs stacking the whole Reaver line up for instant execution with MoM and Brawler stuns also incoming.

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Originally Posted by Sterva

Enfs are also the fastest

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OP in pvp I'll admit, but God forbid an enf doesn't run that with MUB up, not that MUB is needed that often in pvp mind you :p. Rage had a purpose, but that purpose has been lost with RS caps and huge hp. I would love to see Rage be as "Oh ****! Heals plx!" as it is at lower levels where the DoT actually like ... hurts you.

I don't see a reason not to increase the DoT amount while on Rubi-Ka, which is where the real problem is at. If it did the same dmg as in SL it would effectively mitigate the iMongo HoT and force enfs to choose between catching their target and resisting nanos or healing.

This change would personally piss me off pretty badly because it would nerf my enf :(, but it is an idea.

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Originally Posted by Sterva

Enfs are able to heal themselves so efficiently

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See above first for one fix.

We might have more healing capability than say Crats or Engis, but far from adequate healing in terms of our ability to heal up those insane alphas, especially with nerfed absorbs which should be our first line of defense. The proposed heal on Highway is a nice touch IMO to be able to instantly heal part of those alphas. Maybe increase the recharge to 110 or 120 seconds?

/discuss

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sterva

Enfs shouldn't be the best tanking profession ingame and also have among the highest pvp dps over time damage, and also be the fastest, and also be able to heal themselves so efficiently.

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#1 is just what enfs do. About the 3 other things, it is a rather good point. I never really understood why enfs run around like a snowball of doom, since they're quite durable, big, hulking monsters.

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Originally Posted by Kopecz

OP in pvp I'll admit, but God forbid an enf doesn't run that with MUB up, not that MUB is needed that often in pvp mind you :p. Rage had a purpose, but that purpose has been lost with RS caps and huge hp. I would love to see Rage be as "Oh ****! Heals plx!" as it is at lower levels where the DoT actually like ... hurts you.

I don't see a reason not to increase the DoT amount while on Rubi-Ka, which is where the real problem is at. If it did the same dmg as in SL it would effectively mitigate the iMongo HoT and force enfs to choose between catching their target and resisting nanos or healing.

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Increasing the dot to a level where it would equal Mongo hot sounds like an interesting idea which would force an enf to think - whether to run rage or not, and not just try to keep it running all the time. It might even help solve some of the lower TL OP problems with enfs.

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Originally Posted by Moonbolt

{Original post removed by Anarrina}

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{answer removed}

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Originally Posted by Mastablasta

You forget to take into account the damage increase that a lot of people are getting. At low levels the increased taunt will be nice for enfs, I know I had some issue holding aggro at all times on my enf in Adonis with similar level people in the past. Had to use all aggro tools available all the time to keep things going.
At endgame, the issue is less. RK can still be tricky in some cases with NTs and shades stealing aggro. But other than that, endgame aggro management has become dull and tedious.

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So they should change MoM to be good before lvl 200. Maybe lvl 150 for the 3rd increase would be better. On Taunt at least.

im pretty much thinking.. what perks would u give up for MoM at TL 5-6?
defenetly not biosheilding.
prolly not colossal health.
defenetly not the wepon perkline of choice.
hmm out of perks.

manners of mongo is an inferior perkline to the other options enfs have.
the only reason for anyone to ever perk MoM was the 2 stuns for pvp.
they are removing 1 of the stuns.
and increasing dmg some and taunt some of the perkline.
meaning perkline will go even more unused after patch.

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Originally Posted by eroz_c

I never really understood why enfs run around like a snowball of doom, since they're quite durable, big, hulking monsters.

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I think there's a couple of reasons for this & they're both rooted in the taunt/hate list mechanics
1) Being the first to be seen by a hostile mob is a taunt
2) Being closer to an agroing mob helps maintain your place on its hate list

In missions/raids etc a good enfo will be right up the next mobs a$$ ASAP, it's key to being a good tank in this game imo.

Re the rage dot, I'd like to see slightly less impact at lower level & more at higher level. I also don't see why there's a different on RK & SL... as an enf it is sooo nice to be effectively without the dot on RK (but that doesn't make it right)

I have a similar view on nano & heal delta, I think lower levels should get more & higher levels get less (or rather have a harder time achieving it)

I also agree that absorb layers should play the roll of our primary defence, but as they are they're not quite good enough, even coon at 10k isn't that big these days. Absorbs are another thing which haven't scaled up as the normal HP has increased over time.

If layers were more important, it'd make using challenger with its 20s NSD more of a sacrifice too.

Both rage & challenger are pretty uber, I think there should be a meaningful penalty for using them, though not a crippling one.

With the top (or maybe all) rage, I might suggest something like (just pulling numbers outta the air), 15x 2sec ticks at 1% current max HP

Another suggestion to balance this would be to make the mongo hot at % on current max hp too, to avoid enfos going for low hp setups.

What many people fail to realize is that enfs rely on alphaing to do any killing at all, all other profs have the static AR and dps to (wether its pets, weapon specials or nanos etc) harm others without perk support but enfs dont. We NEED to alpha stuff in order to get anything done. The proposed perk changes will completely remove this ability from us, all the stun perklines (which mind you enf has alot) will become useless and we will be stuck with them. Also the alpha we currently have isnt what its made out to be in forum chatter, against an experienced player it will fail 90% of the time after which we have no other reasonable alternative then to just run.

Enfo defense is also a controversial topic, to an average player during short periods of time yes - we seem invulnerable but fact is we are not, its mostly a mindgame to overtank our opponents in short bursts so they give up and try to kill something else and it works 99% time when im engaged in group pvp people always try to gank me right away for the first few times and then just give up letting me lolol around and not having any clue how much they really damaged me. Truth is anybody who has played an endgame enf toon knows how and when we break, i myself find my favourite prey to be other enfs because they really arent hard to kill at all..

As for enforcers speed and slipperyness due to our high NR, well it fits perfectly with our made up invulnerability as it often allows us to avoid exposing weakness. And no imo enfos arent the fastest prof ingame, i can easily catch my own enf played by another on my advy or engi but maybe thats just all these years of training paid off(whenever im idling or chatting i just jump around on stuff, im rly good at jumping on stuff!)

Overall i feel enfs are the most balanced prof in AO as they are right now because of 2 simple reasons:
1 - We can kill anything, theres always a chance which is why i chose this prof
2 - Anything can kill us, vs different profs we have different amount of time to try and alpha them but usually the harder it is the longer time we have to do it which makes every1 equally difficult more or less
We have no absolute nemesis (soldiers come close but its nowhere near the severety of sold vs trader for example) and we arent the nemesis of anybody else(theres no prof where we have this insane lolkillbutton against)

This is written as a 220/30/70 enf with the ultimate high end gear from my experience vs other people with ultimate high end gear, granted theres only like 2 dozens of us on rk2 and every1 else less geared and/or experienced die like flys to me but im sure this applys to the other 2 dozens of awesomely geared ppl too.

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Originally Posted by Troxxor

I think there's a couple of reasons for this & they're both rooted in the taunt/hate list mechanics
1) Being the first to be seen by a hostile mob is a taunt
2) Being closer to an agroing mob helps maintain your place on its hate list

In missions/raids etc a good enfo will be right up the next mobs a$$ ASAP, it's key to being a good tank in this game imo.

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Quite true, but it reflects to PvP in a somewhat adverse manner in my opinion.

Possibly, tbh I don't pvp enough to comment on that

I still think enfs should be faster than most though. I guess it's down to FC to find the right balance between pvm & pvp needs in this case... GL to them! :p

Tbh I can't see how it's possible without doing something wierd like making the RS buff part of rage break on hit