Inits, broken? should be fixed? why?

Inits dont work right now, and we all know that big slow guns have better damage...
In my case which i post right now.. this could turn out to be intresting...

Lets take the poor example of soldier:

a) Inits- Fast Guns -> lower damage - better in time
b) Inits- Big guns -> higher damage - sucky like hell in time
c) fix inits and the big guns should be better for higher lvl ppl, such as the IEC, it is VERY slow, but hit very hard... if the inits were fixed... the critscope problem would be solved really... big guns.. better damage overall, i think its a idea...
FIX INITS ya mista FC rulah!
/ME WANTS BIG GUNS! DAAAAAWWWWG! *giggle*

dosnt only fix the critscope and crit problem.. also some of the soldiers problems would be fixed with this.. :)

Inits are broken? It dosn't really seem that way to me (though i could definately be wrong). When i upped my ranged init from 200 to 400 i noticed a definate increase in weapon firing speed. I did the same ammount of damage only more often.

SO how are the inits broken?

Actually... the problem is the fast/light weapons generally suck compared to the slow heavy ones due to the way armor works. Of course there are a few uber weapons now which are actually fast/heavy, and so there are maybe 10-15 weapons which people actually use in the game out of the thousands in the database, but the vast majority of weapons and attack nanos in the database are fast/light and are totally useless to man or beast.

The absorptive effect of armor combined with min damage effects makes the combat system basically mathematically unstable. There is really no way to balance fast/light vs. slow/heavy in general because if you do it for one level of armor, all you have to do is increase the target's armor class, and it becomes unbalanced again.

Recharge on weapons dont go under what it sais... attack goes down with upping init.. but not recharge... which is sooooooo sad considering the potential of all the great weps ^^

The weapon init problem, is not purley about speed, it's about the weapon in question using the WRONG int, like the BBI's Adv only Pistol, uses MELEE init instead of ranged, that's a bugg FC have said it's a bug (not a feature) and they mean to fix it.

There are a few other weapons in the game that have this sort of problem, that's the REAL "FIX-INITS" question.

peace
cal

Quote:

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Originally posted by Strycker

The absorptive effect of armor combined with min damage effects makes the combat system basically mathematically unstable. There is really no way to balance fast/light vs. slow/heavy in general because if you do it for one level of armor, all you have to do is increase the target's armor class, and it becomes unbalanced again.

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Hmmm, could you elaborate, how does armor work exactly?

So far my (<lvl50) NT has been using the fast attack nanos (1.3/3, 50% nano resist) to imho good effect, with a weapon as secondary damage dealer. Do the fast attack / low damage nanos cease to be effective at some point, or am I already gimped but just not noticing it yet? ;)

AC doesn't affect nano damage.

Basically every ten (10) points of AC reduces maximum damage by 1 point. This is AFTER the skill multiplier (damagex(1+(Attack rating/400))) and BEFORE damage adds (rings of power etc.).

Note that in terms of expected damage, this lowers your damage by 1 point per (20) points of AC down to your minimum damage.

Note on damage after AC.. it is rolled normally from the new min-max damage, meaning that if you have a 1-500 weapon and ac absorbs 200, you will have an evenly distributed chance of doing all damages 1-300.

For example, say you are using a 50-400 damage AR with +20 projectile damage rings of power against a mob with an ac of 5000 and your AR skill is 800. First, damage is multiplied by skill, so its (50to400*(1+(800/400))) = 150-1200.. Now, substract AC from max, so it is now 150-700. Any damage adds are applied after this, so you will have an even chance of doing anywhere from 170-720 damage.

Yeah, AC doesn't affect nano damage, but some hidden mob property apparently does, which is why most NT nukes hit for close to min. damage most of the time (there are some exceptions with better results, which is in itself bizarre, but few if any nukes average out to do average damage, and many reliably do min damage all the time). It's not nano resistance, it's not AC, it's just some mob property which makes them use a different combat system from players. This property is clearly related to level, so that you can do average nuke damage to leets but not to mobs with any decent level.

This is a very annoying thing about the game, the way the mobs have different rules. Not only is the AI so bad the mobs have to have from 2 to over 1000 (!!!) times player hit point totals, but even the human mobs don't "really" have weapons or armor, all mob types just ignore lots of effects like plunder/divest/debuff, etc. which are so devastating vs. players, outdoor mobs teleport around when attacked if they are not in range, mission mobs have the mystic ability to turn invisible at will (OK, OK, that's a bug, but still) and yet all these mobs are so stupid they sometimes can't even negotiate an open doorway....

I think this is something funcom needs to look a bit more closely at. Mobs need to have the same rules as players. The warping when out of range needs to go. The wierd mob pathing needs to be sorted out so they can go around objects without moving half a mile out of the way. Debuffs need to work on mobs as players would expect them too. Mobs need to be better balanced so that they don't require a bajillion hitpoints to make adequate opponents for players.

A few other notes:

Mobs need to have lower minimum damage, and a larger damage range. My fixer is wearing armor equal to his level, and every single mob he faces does minimum damage on every hit against him. This is uninteresting.

To compensate for a reduction of the mob's hitpoints (which is absurd), they should be given better armor. This in itself would provide a much needed boost for NTs. Differing mobs should furthermore have different armor strengths and weaknesses to make them more interesting.

Mobs need to use their nanos more intelligently. During battles yesterday, I was rooted by the mob one hit before they died. The time they spent casting that root was wasted. Mobs should know to root players in a more intelligent way. NT style mobs should use their nukes more often, and depend less on weapons. It would also be nice to see mob engineers, MPs, and Beaurocrats using pets. This would greatly increase mob versatility and make them more interesting.


And, unrelated

It would be extremely nice to see mobs using cooperative team tactics. Putting a soldier, a doctor, and an engineer in a room should make the soldier immediately agro with the doctor staying back to heal and the engineer using buffs before rushing in. This would be much more difficult to incorporate, but would add great variety to the game (and actual tactical strategy).

I never knew the innits were broken, infact i think the idea is that for every 600 innits you have (with agg bar at 75%) it takes a second off your weapon dmg, so if you have a gun with a atk time of 2 secs then with agg at 75% and 600 innit you got max speed, or at 100% with 325 innits (not sure :?). Also yur innits for recharge time only rely on your base ability for the skill, not after implants and debuffs.

Right, thank you explaining how inits are broken, Whiteboog. :P

lol, sounds fine to me, it works out that with my nova flow on i only need an innit of 325 for full speed, sounds good.

Quote:

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Originally posted by caloss2
The weapon init problem, is not purley about speed, it's about the weapon in question using the WRONG int, like the BBI's Adv only Pistol, uses MELEE init instead of ranged, that's a bugg FC have said it's a bug (not a feature) and they mean to fix it.

There are a few other weapons in the game that have this sort of problem, that's the REAL "FIX-INITS" question.

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Couldnt agree more. This have to be some kind of mistake from the guy who implemented the weapon into the game in the first place and cant really be hard to solve. FC knows about most of these broken weapons, rumour has it that it's gonna be solved "soon". Hopefully next patch, I wanna try that manex catastrophe ;-).

I really hope they fix the inits on some of the weapons. BBI Faithfuls and HSR Explorer are both bugged with the melee init instead of ranged init. Kinda sux considering there are only a few readily available pistol options. Got my ranged init up to 300 just to find out it wasn't helping with my BBI's... Another thing I've noticed, is that because they use melee, my bullets get parried a LOT more using BBI as compared to say, my Kaen-Archibald Kolts. It would be REALLY nice if these initiative bugs were fixed for these weapons in the next patch. Either that, or let me be like Superman too, and parry bullets like the mobs do.

Stefan "Orieon" Age
84 Adventurer
"Exploring and dying since August 22, 2002"

Fix Inits (Except Nano)

It finally moved down to page 2, so someone had to start a new thread on the same subject. Theres the link for it in and all of its 10 pages. In it it discusses how all the inits work, why people think its broke, and why people think its broke.