Scaling Attack Pet Ideas...

This is a listing of some ideas I have for what a scaling pet should look like in terms of numbers and stats and how those stats should be pulled from the nanoskills of the caster. Following which I'll post some theoretical pet extrapolations from stat numbers at various levels.

The idea is that pets already have one factor scaling from the master: Runspeed is 1.25 times the caster's current runspeed on casting or zoning. From this it seems (from the player's angle) that it would be a simple matter to simply have other aspects of the pet be scaled from the master's nanoskills as well.

The stats of a pet are pretty simple when you break it down: They have an attack rating, pure AAO with no weaponskills, a defensive rating, once again pure AAD and no evades, a nano resist rating (which may or may not be broken), weapons they use, and runspeed, which as above is calculated from the master's runspeed. If there's any other stats of interest that a pet has, they're not known to me at this time.

An idea that occurred to me that would be a simpler answer to how to have pets (which are the primary part of our toolset and also the weakest) that would be effective in the future would be to have them scale to the master's nanoskills, but how was problematic until I realized that simply having a multiplier similar to how the pet's runspeed was calculated would do the job, while also making the pet less complicated as well as easy to figure out the numbers on.

All that remains would be to determine what nanoskills would affect what parts of the pet, and what the multiplier(s) would be.

Time and Space seemed like a natural to use to calculate AR. This is THE nanoskill for MPs, so basing attack rating off of this is only natural. As an optional idea, having the level of the pet be determined by the skill in Time and Space would be cool, but would do nothing else besides the old standby of the MP having a deep red pet to them.

Matter Creation would likely determine the weapon equipped by the pet. MP pets tend towards multiple weapons, but as the method of determining weapon damage is not well known (Xtremtech suspected when he wrote the Big MP Guide that it was a set of weapons that had their ql at the level of the pet when cast) Having the weapon ql be determined by Matter Creation seems only appropriate, however I will also state that regardless of QL that MP pet damage probably needs to be reworked all over anyways.

Biological Metamorphosis would be used to determine the maximum HP of the pet, naturally. As an optional factor Bio Met could be used to determine a healdelta bonus to the pet, a straight number as opposed to a percentage (which won't work, as Healthy Manifestation proved)

Matter Metamorphosis would be the statistic that both defensive stats would be derived from, the straight defense stat as well as Nano Resist.

That pretty much wraps it up for the nanoskills and what they cover (not much point including PM/SI since they're not directly used in casting a pet). Now for the point of importance: The multiplier.

Runspeed is suspected of being multplied at a rate of 1.25 of the master's CURRENT runspeed on casting or on zoning. This is to help the pet keep up with the master and also give it the ability to chase running targets. Simply using the same calculations but with other variables as input and output would lend itself to making a very dynamic pet that would be a true reflection of the master. Here's how multipliers would work on a pet, with several examples given.

Let's take the current multiplier of 1.25, the one used by the calculation for Runspeed. Using that, a TS rating of 125 would net you a pet with 150 AR as a base, a TS of 500 would net you 625 AR, 1000 TS would net 1.25k AR, and moving up towards the endgame, 2.1k AR would net you 2625 AR and 2.8k would net you 3500 AR base.

That same multiplier could also be applied to the defense/Nano Resist calculation (though it seems a bit much to me, or it could just be a straight 1 multiplier, aka the master's MM is the pet's defense/nano resist.

To calculate Max HP, a multiplier of 10 or 15 could be used. For a BM rating of 100, the pet will have either 1000 (x10) or 1500 (x15). For a BM rating of 500, HP would be either 5000 (x10) or 7500 (x15). For a BM rating of 2.1k, you get 21,000 (x10) or 31,500 (x15). For 2.8k you will see 28,000 (x10) or 42,000 HP (x15).

For the weapon, a new weapon template would be written, and then simply have MC divided by 10 and then have that be the weapon's QL. A weapon QL would be determined by simply lopping off the last digit (or rounding it if need be) of your MC rating. Another alternative would be, if the former were too difficult, to have the lopped off MC rating simply equate to the level of the pet summoned, since the level of the pet usually determines the QL of the weapon the pet uses. This method would have the side effect of capping potential max damage (since mobs cannot be over level 300 or things break), but the entertaining effect of having (for the first time in 120 levels) a pet that is red to you (if you have enough skill, that is!) which I think a number of MPs would be jumping for joy for regardless.

Trying this with other pet professions would be difficult, primarily because while MPs get the second best nanoskills in the game (with only PM and SI any better with NTs) but builds for Engis and Crats are vastly different, and applying the same specific multipliers for a flexible pet for them would wind up nerfing them severely (1400 TS/MC for Carlo would wind up with 1750 after the 1.25 multiplier is added, for instance) so if a similar pet were to be considered for Engineers and Bureaucrats, you would have to rewrite the pet from the ground up, since these professions will have completely different rates of nanoskills from what MPs have.

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Originally Posted by Dancingrage

The idea is that pets already have one factor scaling from the master: Runspeed is 1.25 times the caster's current runspeed on casting or zoning. From this it seems (from the player's angle) that it would be a simple matter to simply have other aspects of the pet be scaled from the master's nanoskills as well.

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The problem you run into is probably the reason why FC hasn't done other skills based off the owners stats.

Twinking.

If my pets stats are based off of nanoskills, I'll throw on every +nanoskill equip I have, find a trader for a 131, and then cast my pet, easily giving hundreds of bonus points from your "standard" setup.

That's not to say that I don't like your idea, you just need to have a way of dealing with that incorporated.

I'd strongly suggest having a base value for all of the stats that is set by the pet's level. Then have a boosting value for the stats which is set based on the player's skills at time of casting.

So for AAO, you might have a base value of 10 per level. A 220 attack pet would then start with a base value of 2200 AAO. You'd add perhaps 0.5 AAO per MC skill-point at time of casting, giving perhaps around 3500 AAO altogether.

There could be an issue, as Ebag points out, with twinking for casting. Knowing how annoying this can be for Engis, it would be lovely if you could do what many other games do: make the pet stat change as the owner stat changes. That is, the pet stat isn't set at casting but instead is updated when the owner stat changes. That would tend to elimating hot-swapping for casting, and would encourage teaming with skill buffers while not making MPs feel they had to run around desperately trying to find a trader before casting a pet.

This too would have its problems though - in that debuffs could have double effect... so if the MP were debuffed on nanoskills all the pet stats would drop - and then if the pet were debuffed on a stat like AAO in a blind, then it would be, as it were, double-debuffed.

There's also the view that the twinking is partly the point, isn't it? You want people putting in the effort on boosting their nanoskills to gain a stronger pet. Even if it's based on stats at time of casting, you still need to put in the IP, perks and basic items to raise your nanoskills - and there are still downsides to needing to use/equip items that can be switched out on the fly for casting the pet.

Still, by using a base value + a skill related boost, you reduce the influence of each skill-point somewhat and level off the overall values that can be acheived. If you have no base, then you end up with a high multiplier which makes even small amounts of player skill quite valuable. But with a base + 0.5 multiplier, switching out an item that gives +20 MC and thus 10 pet AAO is much less persuasive than switching out for 30+ AAO that you might get without a base pet value. The base value also gives a good stat to adjust for balance purposes (the base value).

X

P.S. RK pets definitely equip a weapon interpolated at the QL equal to the level of the pet. SL pets... who knows? :)

For lower levels something would have to be thought up to deal with simple OE matters (I'm thinking of this as a TL1 to TL7 pet, one size fits all) but once you get to TL5 or beyond it falls into the area where it would be non-OE if cast....HOWEVER....

The idea is that this pet is to have the same habit of changing it's own attributes to match its masters on cast and on ZONE that pet runspeed currently does, so if you were thinking you'd be breaking out Das Uberpet to go wreak havoc on the BS, for instance, you'd find the pet shrinking pretty damn fast upon your arrival in Decon, and actually needing to recast it (since it'd be then based on your unbuffed stats) or find yourself with a much weaker pet than you were hoping for.

This wouldn't stop some MPs from going and getting a wrangle and nanoskill buffs before some tower pvp, but this low some 'temp OE' numbers could be used (I.E. until zone the OE numbers are set at the appropriate OE stats of a pet of that casting level) which sounds complex but might be simple depending on how OE works and if THAT can be changed from zone to zone too.

As much as you have a good point, the other side of the coin is we wind up with pets that aren't able to keep up with the pace of the game. Prime example: Rihwen, with it's current listed AR (and it's unknown if it's correct) of 2261 from the Big MP guide, will get 500 more AR from the top Evoc, and then another 200 if you're a shield MP, and that tops you out at 2.9k regardless if you put all your effort into nanoskills or if you utterly ignore them. 2.7k AR isn't really keeping up anymore, and 2.9k will fall behind the curve soon enough, or is already falling behind if you ask some people.

Using the old-school OE numbers adapted to change on zone or casting should work but I don't know if THAT's possible.

EDIT: What I get for taking so long to post, X has his say!

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Originally Posted by Ebag333

The problem you run into is probably the reason why FC hasn't done other skills based off the owners stats.

Twinking.

If my pets stats are based off of nanoskills, I'll throw on every +nanoskill equip I have, find a trader for a 131, and then cast my pet, easily giving hundreds of bonus points from your "standard" setup.

That's not to say that I don't like your idea, you just need to have a way of dealing with that incorporated.

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Thanks but no thanks for your pseudo-concern.

Twinked pets are not a problem, if you knew anything about twink wars, especially given trader dominance in every TL before tl5. Adjust the base lower accordingly if you're really so scared of this, or introduce diminishing returns (e.g. base + 30% MC/TS). my 90 agent can already stand and tank a 100MP's TEP fairly comfortably (HoT won't outheal it, but I can stand it long enough to get off 3xAS to kill the MP). My tl4 MP can't damage people nearly fast enough with TEP either.

So stop worrying.

Well, Chrys, it's reasonable to think that twinking pets might be a concern since I also happen to be the author of the 'I can has Zhok' thread where I lay out how to get 1688+ TS and MC to cast Zhok at TL5, with that 1800 TS/MC isn't exactly impossible if you're being wrangled, and from those base stats you'd wind up with a pet with....(assuming 1.25 and 10x multipliers are used) 2273 AR and 18,180 HP (and nowhere did I mention AC, which probably would be high) with 1.8k NR and a weapon effective at ql 181 on the weapon scale, which I'd mentioned should be higher in terms of damage than the current SL MP pet weaponscale.

I could see how someone could be concerned about OE at that point, considering the pet you just cast has a base AR higher than Whiner before buffs and might have a shot at beating it out for damage as well. Zhok I consider just this side (by a hair, mostly over HP) of OP, that beast would be hell on wheels assuming that OE rules weren't in place.

THat said, this probably would be a godsend to TL3 MP pvp since you'd have a hope of competing with enfos that have 1.1k AR at 75ish.

And the whole idea is to get MPs to quit this crap about stupid weaponskills and return to our roots, aka nanoskills, where we actually happen to be strong at. The bits of metal and plastic that adorn our hands in game should be garnish to the main course that is our pet's DD, not the other way around.

I don't see any level locks being changed any time soon, so why are you worrying about something that FC have never ever done before?

Twinking pet AR is no different from someone twinking to put on an insane weapon (e.g. neleb rod at level 10, JAME at 31, double chirops at 60, SPS at 75, SMG at 100, MBC at 110, SSoS at 170, etc.). Hell they have to repeat the process every time they cast the pet, there's your tradeoff.

Why do pet players hate themselves so much?

Annnd where'd you get that idea from? I intended this particular pet to have a nanoskill requirement of something like 100 TS/MC and no level lock?

Well you must be thinking of AO2. Good luck.

You made no clear indication in your wall of text that this was going to be on a brand new pet, I'd read it as an overlay for existing pets.

So, as I said, you must be thinking of AO2. Good luck.

No need to wait that long, the code to make most of this happen happens to be already in place, and it's based off that magical pet runspeed coding. The only real worry is for a handful of potential scenarios where someone would pump up their nanoskills to a higher level than normally feasible, and the code for runspeed auto-corrects on zone, which solves a LOT of the potential problem before we're even out of the gate. The only other concern is for the few situations where someone will pump up their nanoskills and NOT zone, i.e. tower fights or in-zone hunting, and even then it's only likely to be a bigger problem at certain title levels, assuming the MP community doesn't simply shout with joy and not bother about it that much (doubt it, give MPs a reason to twink nanoskills as opposed to weaponskills and we'd see 3k broken in a week.) and that's not assuming there's not some provision in the OE code that won't cover that (which we don't know since nobody's poked at it).

The only real concern is OE and how that code will work when presented with a more dynamic pet than is usual.

My bet: It breaks horribly! EDIT: Believe it or not I'm looking rather cheerful about that last sentence!

Edit 2: @ X: I'd prefer it to be a matter of changing as the master's stats change, since that would even better reward those who push nanoskills and build around that as opposed to swapping momentarily for a pet casting, but I don't know how possible that would be. That said, since we don't know what the code looks like re: pet updating, it's hard to say. My su****ion is that the pet is simply respawned when you zone with timers carried over but runspeed updated, so I don't know how likely it would be that you could either change a pet's stats on-the-fly or respawn a pet without the master getting insane amounts of spam every other minute, when the pet de/re-spawned.

To be honest, I don't think it's likely that FC would use code for runspeed to implement a change such as this. I see why you might want to leverage it, but the functionality is new enough and different enough that they'd probably go for a separate implementation. I'm sure it would be feasible to do an update on zoning though.

I'd also suggest that it's probably best to go for implementing a new series of pets that would be intended as PvP pets. I don't think that there is a real need to implement it for all pets - given that for PvM the base issues don't really arise. Also, if you try this across the whole level range for existing pets, then you will almost certainly run into the problem of messing up progression of the pet nanolines. Then too, there's the question as to whether weapon templates, HP values and the base values for stats might be better set differently for PvP and PvM. You'd also have the implementation overhead (and potential risks) of altering all the pets...

I'd stick to normal casting requirements and just base OE as normal on them - particularly if you were to follow the idea of having a base value on casting that is separate from the boost from owner skills.

All in all, I'd go for something like 2 pets per title level, designed and implemented as primarily PvP pets. Base values set with PvP in mind and also base casting requirements set for the title level. Extra nanoskills boosting AAO, AAD, NR etc. Recalculation on casting and zoning.

X

But isn't part of a pet based on nanoskills already there? When on my lowbiw MP the buffs run out, the pet stops listening to me, so there is a check from the pet on the caster's skill already. Would then just be extended to some more petskills and not only limited to it's "listenig"skill ;)

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Originally Posted by Dac---

But isn't part of a pet based on nanoskills already there? When on my lowbiw MP the buffs run out, the pet stops listening to me, so there is a check from the pet on the caster's skill already. Would then just be extended to some more petskills and not only limited to it's "listenig"skill ;)

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Yes, but since level requirements were introduced along with SL, our pets became outdated. It is just not going to happen anymore that a pet stops listening after you hit lvl 100, even 60 for twinks.
It's important to know that after every pet-patch/fix/new pet, at that very moment the process of our pet nerf has started.
People will be adapting their strategies immediately to our pets, this is the noticeable effect in the short run. The one in the long run is the fact that new and better equipment and tools will always come up.

When SL firstly came out, Zhok was pretty much capable of tearing everything apart in pvp, whilst doing insane dmg in pvm. If you take a look at it now, comparing things, it became pretty pathetic.

But, to be honest, I think we've passed our "point of no return" way too long ago. In my opinion pets should, like DR proposed, scale to our skills. And on top of that, we should have gotten 10+ different attack pets, each with their pro's and cons. That, imo, would have been flawless no matter what patches would come out.

But, instead of 10 working pets we're now stuck with 300 of them of wich none really do what they're supposed to do. We're a pet class yet all MP's make these extreme setups because our pets don't cut it on their own.

@X: You're probably correct in that FC wouldn't implement old code for this, but I use this to illustrate my point that something similar could be done to make this happen.

My big concern is one that Corily echoes is that once you make a new pet, as long as it's static and unchanging, that pet has a timer on how long it's likely to remain viable in an ever-changing game like this. In the beginning Transcendent Enmity was considered a pretty hefty and strong pet, now it's not even viable for TL3 pvp. Urn pets were introduced and due both to their static nature AND level locks quickly fell by the wayside. SL pets (including Rihwen) are fast on the decline as well, in terms of comparative power with the abilities of other professions.

That's really the heart of what I'm worried about here, you can give us 1000 new pets but they have a lifespan as long as things change in this game and they remain static.

When Warhammer first came out, pet abilities did not scale with the master. So the usual criticism of pets being useless in PVP was leveled at them, particularly the squig herder which was seen as the weakest of the pet profs (despite the fact that they weren't useless, they just had to be thought in different terms than mere DPS, and smart use of the pet's abilities were a must for good PVP, of which there were very few awesome Squig Herder PVPers on my server - like 2). White Lions at the time had the crazy ability 'fetch' and pretty good DPS until 1.2 that killed melee DPS classes in general (apparently they're back to uber again though, not that I would know).

Then Mythic altered the pets to scale according to a prime stat of the master, even changing the prime stat applicable for pets when the Squig Herder was in a shell morph (ballistics (ranged) = strength (melee) when in morph). SH is one of the most fun classes to play in the whole game, you'll see it in the top of almost every Warhammer poll about favourite classes out there.

So likely if there's a will, there's a way.

P.S. Aion fire-specced Spirit Master (apparently they're a bit useless though :p)

I think the basic mechanics are good. The multipliers could increase by TL to help manage extreme twinks etc. But really it isn't any different than what people do right now. Get a mochies + wrangle cast an insane pet for your level that you can barley keep out of OE and tear up missions or what ever you are doing. I would like to take it a step further and apply the same stats to the other two pets as well. If you have the equipment and stats your heal pet and mez pet should also be more viable based on the same set up with the appropriate TL modifiers. By adjusting the modifiers by TL it allows FC the flexibility to help keep pets viable because those modifiers could be altered as the game alters to help keep pets current with game dynamics.

Excellent job on planning this one out. It focuses on our pets like we need and bases is on nano skills which is really the only area that MP's excel. Not to mention that this could get us back into PVM viability while not making MP's OP'd in PVP as the MP is still squishy if not using shield and if they are using shield they can't contribute any amount of meaningful damage other than the pets.

**Wish list please**

Random Question;
Is it impossible for funcom to simply change a mechanic for a new pet?
Like if they put in a 2601 pet lets say, you would normally only need 2100 roughly.

Couldn't it be coded that for these "Highly Focused" or "Xan Manifested" Pets, w/e, you need 90%, or 95%, even 100% of the requirement otherwise they go beserk?

This way you would have to sacrifice for a highly substitutable pet for PVM (or pvp :p) instead of going full DD and leaving your pet behind?

I haven't read everything in here, but I'd like to see my pet scale with the stuff I wear. So my pets increase their critchance if I wear an iGoC, they deal more damage when I wear add all damage stuff and so on.
Also the stuff should scale interactively and not be determined on cast. So if I get MoP, my pets get MoP*scaling factor for crit.
Don't tell me it can't be done, it's done in WoW :P And that's about the only point I'm missing in AO. Maybe this could lead to a new Stattype on amour like "Increase Pet aggressiveness by 5%", something like that would probably lead to some thinking on how to equip as a pet prof, instead of going alien combined armour like everyone else.