The Economy isn't Broken

[Anonimofied]

This is funny, it seems to me, everyone have good points and same view of the issues, but cant come to agreement hahaha

... The lack of population has created monopolies on services

Agree, long ago during the blooming, it was easier finding team and get things done, to get what we need for our toons.
Nowdays it is harder to find team, even in Subway. It is understandable that lowbies using credits to buy items they need for their toon, instead of wasting time lft for hours.

Funcom failed to maintain and expand their player base, which made the high volume of currency that has been builded up throughout the years de-synchronized with today's low population.
The fundamental issue that needs to be fixed is not the economy or exploiters, but within Funcom itself.

[Samcon]

After logging in and actually looking at prices for the first time in a year, it's really not a problem at all. It's actually like the inflation only applies to big-ticket items, it hasn't seemed to trickle down the line to everyone at this time. Like there are two separate, the rich trade with the rich in this inflated endgame economy, and everyone else in another. What is seen as sufficient leveling gear is not bought by these players. You can tell that all the ill-gained credits went into buying big items, artificially increasing demand and price they are willing to pay.
BUT this means if you want AI armor, you have to participate in farming it, same with NODROPS. Farming low-mid level items like symbs or perennium weapons and selling them to mid level players would be a long haul. It minimizes efficient activities you can do to reach endgame economy goals.

[Antimony]

Ok kids. for the last time, the high prices are not raising the barrier. it only makes the new player experience easier.

I needed a wrangle today, dude charged 5M for tip.
No biggie for me, not the first time I got charged high for buffs lately.
But then I thought, when I was like TL4 I might not even had 5M, but I sure as hell needed a few wrangles before that.

At TL4 credits I got were from loot selling and quests, that's it.
I didn't play AO as if it was wallstreet, lol. No newbie did or was forced to do that back then.
And nobody would charge much for buffs, most were free for a thank you.

So sploiters made AO better for noobs? Big effin LOL!
Dude, your either so removed from playing a new account that you don't remember or you got your head so far up your butt you can see your tonsils!

The fundamental issue that needs to be fixed is not the economy or exploiters, but within Funcom itself.

yup totally!

[Encyros]

Snip!

I assume he just played the game differently when he was new from how you did when you were new.

As a TL4 fr00b I was running Foremans for service fees and containers, and CoH for Reanimator Cloak parts, CoH Collar, and Kizzermole Gumboils.

Obviously there are far more efficient ways to make money, but as a newbie, those are what I did. And it was mostly good fun.

I imagine that there were extenuating circumstances which meant that someone asked 5m from you for a wrangle. Maybe it was the middle of the night, you were impatient and needed it NOW, or the wrangler was in a bad mood and couldn't be bothered otherwise.

Picking it out to imply newbies can't afford to get wrangles is a bit extreme. I hope you'd concede that.

[Stillian]

[...]I assume[...]

[...]I imagine[...] [...] Maybe it was [...]

Picking it out to imply newbies can't afford to get wrangles is a bit extreme. I hope you'd concede that.

My highlight - given how much conjecture your post is, I hope you'd concede you're not exactly turning his post on it's head. I imagine and assume and call me maybe lots of things, I'd hardly use it as hard facts in an argument! The fact is he was charged 5m for a wrangle... It's not even a 'tip' because the last time I checked, tips are optional...

[Grandpa]

My highlight - given how much conjecture your post is, I hope you'd concede you're not exactly turning his post on it's head. I imagine and assume and call me maybe lots of things, I'd hardly use it as hard facts in an argument! The fact is he was charged 5m for a wrangle... It's not even a 'tip' because the last time I checked, tips are optional...

Yes, I think part of the problem is that people cannot remember how it was when they started the game.
Now they say "it worked for me 10 years ago, so how hard can it be?"

The biggest mistake is that they assume a newbie has the same knowledge and access to information as they do now.

They also don't understand how the game has changed since they started.
AO in 2014 isn't comparable to 2001, 2004, 2007 or even 2011.

The population has declined and has aged. There aren't many other true newbies to team with nowadays. LFT in that range is dead and buried.
If you see a low toon today, chances are it's just someone's twink/warp toon/bank.

And they also forgot WHY they started playing AO.
I don't know anybody who wanted to play AO for it's "great" economy.
Making credits wasn't high on my priority list either, and it shouldn't be for any newbie.
AO was never meant to be Entropia or Planet Calypso.
Yet the (paying) newbie is STILL entitled to reasonable development, progression, and fair play!

A few weeks ago, someone was looking for a TSer to make carb armor.
He listed on dnet/neutnet that he had the parts and would pay 10M for the tradeskill.
I made it for him and I took the credits. 3 years ago, I would have made that for free.

5M for wrangles?
10M just to make some newbie armor?
10M for important nanos that you can cast at TL3/4, but can't even roll yet?

As a TL4 fr00b I was running Foremans for service fees and containers, and CoH for Reanimator Cloak parts, CoH Collar, and Kizzermole Gumboils.

You need a decent twink to offer Foreman's services.
If you have to pay for every implant, armor TS and all the buffs to twink the toon, could you have made it?
I doubt, any true newbie would be able to afford that today.

[Encyros]

Snip

I feel it's important to be honest when making suppositions, whose merits readers can judge for themselves. My opinion is that those conjecture are not wildly off-kilter, and provide a possible explanation for Antimony's experiences. I'm sorry you felt they were being used as 'hard facts': I did my best to ensure they were not.

Perhaps I should have been more clear.

Antimony's uses his anecdote to posit the experience of a newbie. This has several logical non sequiturs. Some of these are slightly veiled:

"Dude charged 5m" -/> The wider community values wrangles at 5m a cast

"No biggie for me" -/> The wider community values wrangles at 5m a cast

Basically, from the fact Antimony agreed to pay a high rate to one wrangler it does not follow that many wranglers would try to demand such a rate, would refuse to provide the service if turned down, nor that many players, including veteran players, would have agreed.

"I didn't play AO as if it was[sic] Wallstreeet" -/> "No newbie did"

"Most were free for a thank you" -/> Most buffs wouldn't be free for a thank you now

"Nobody would charge much for buffs" is factually incorrect. People were charged for high level buffs from launch.

"Dude, your[sic] either [...]" - this is conjecture, and rude conjecture.

I hope this helps.

[Encyros]

Snip

You keep making the point that only people on your side of the argument can possibly have a clear head.

Of course there aren't many true newbies. I am not aware of the statistics but I would be very surprised by people who decide to come into AO new and as a subscriber.

It seems to me that those who go Paid are more likely to be MMO veterans looking for something different and having tried being a fr00b for a while. I'm one such, and went paid earlier this year.

Honestly? I'd think of someone, today, who was so determined they loved AO without any prior experience of it that they're prepared to pay a top subscription fee to play it....then decide that they hate it and can't cope, as a bit strange: I think this may reflect your own nostalgia.

Obviously you decided it was okay to take the money of a Dnet poster. As I would. Because they're either not new, or they're savvy enough to know about Dnet that they won't be poor for long, besides, they stated they can afford it.

I hope that if a true newbie asked you the same, you would charge them the old standard of 10k-2m depending on QL, or do it for free because you're nice.

Again, it's you who's actually projecting your experiences onto those of newbies.

[semisentient]

I needed a wrangle today, dude charged 5M for tip.
No biggie for me, not the first time I got charged high for buffs lately.
But then I thought, when I was like TL4 I might not even had 5M, but I sure as hell needed a few wrangles before that.

lets destroy a working economy because you got overcharged once! there are still plenty of free wrangles and people tried to overcharge 10 years ago. the argument that the effort you put in to make the credits to pay for someone else's effort stays constant still stands.

i am not sure you lack reasoning skills or what, but are you honestly advocating something that will turn the economy into an extremely tough environment for new players based on the fact someone tried to overcharge you for a wrangle? i sincerely hope you are not in charge of anything vital in RL

[Encyros]

Yeah I have to say; a fair point.

Grandpa and Antimony: One of you charged at least five times the going rate for a trade skill. The other paid at least five times the going rate for a buff.

Are you trying to inflate basic services just to prove a point?
I'm not going to be vague on this: these are not what these things normally cost. You expressed your dissatisfaction and your protest by helping to make the system worse?

As we both agree:
Expensive items have only inflated by 200-300%.
Cheaper items have inflated by as much as 1000%

And you decide it's okay to pay 5m for a buff and agreed to a 10m fee for a tradeskill? Even in this economy, those are way, way above normal. You basically decided to screw over newbies until FC subsidises your laziness.

[Grandpa]

lets destroy a working economy because you got overcharged once! there are still plenty of free wrangles and people tried to overcharge 10 years ago. the argument that the effort you put in to make the credits to pay for someone else's effort stays constant still stands.

i am not sure you lack reasoning skills or what, but are you honestly advocating something that will turn the economy into an extremely tough environment for new players based on the fact someone tried to overcharge you for a wrangle? i sincerely hope you are not in charge of anything vital in RL

One tradeskill, one wrangle?
Would it matter if I list ten more examples? A hundred? A thousand?
There is evidence all around you, and you know that, but you willfully ignore it.

But you already admitted that you have no objections to what the exploiters did.
In fact, you believe it was a "good thing", especially for newbies.

Perhaps you are one of the perpetrators, perhaps you are not.
Fact is, you like to profit of their counterfeit and laundering and that makes you an accomplice.

The game economy is based on illegality and that's reason enough to demand a full reset.
I know that FC won't do that. They will get away with their laziness and incompetence, but not without hearing about it.

You don't have to be so deprecating there Grandpa.

Sorry, I stand by what I said earlier about his guy:
I cannot fix character issues, he has to work on that himself.

[Grandpa]

Cheaper items have inflated by as much as 1000%

Newbies don't start the game to play "AO stock market", they get most of their income from game-generated credits, which have not increased in a decade.

A pearl today gets you just as many credits as it did 10 years ago and it still takes the same amount of time and effort to farm one.
But the credits from that pearl got you a lot more than they do today.

And you decide it's okay to pay 5m for a buff and agreed to a 10m fee for a tradeskill? Even in this economy, those are way, way above normal. You basically decided to screw over newbies until FC subsidises your laziness.

Buffs used to be a few 100K and were often declined.
It was more a symbolic appreciation than economical gain.
That certainly has changed, because everyone is so desperate for credits now.

The rest of your writing doesn't even make sense - sound like something you heard on talk radio?

[Encyros]

Snip

The 10m Carbonum tipper was not desperate for credits, nor was Antimony desperate for credits when he paid 5m for a Wrangle. So not everyone is desperate for credits. Say what you mean.

I am sorry to hear you found my writing difficult to understand.

Let's try this: could you make a shopping list for a newbie trying to get from 1 to 150? I'd like to see what you put in it and how much it totals. Feel free to choose the profession.

[Grandpa]

The 10m Carbonum tipper was not desperate for credits, nor was Antimony desperate for credits when he paid 5m for a Wrangle. So not everyone is desperate for credits. Say what you mean.

Before the glitches, basic trade skills and buffs had a nominal fee that newbies could afford with game-generated credits.

After the glitches, that nominal fee is becoming a substantial charge that newbies can no longer afford with game-generated credits.
Remember that pearl that I've talked about earlier? It's value is exactly the same as before the glitches.

Thanks to this fraudulent economy, buffs and basic TS are changing from being primarily a community service to an actual source of income.

Why should I log my trader/doc/engi/fixer to buff or TS if I only get a 300K tip?
That doesn't help me if I'm desperate for XXX million credits to buy the next symbiant!

So, the newbie will go without a buff/TS or he finds a way to pay for it - Egpal here I come!
And that closes the cycle of counterfeiting, money-laundering and (a form of) extortion.

The economy will remain indefinitely controlled by cheaters unless FC does something about it.
Which they won't.

Let's try this: could you make a shopping list for a newbie trying to get from 1 to 150? I'd like to see what you put in it and how much it totals. Feel free to choose the profession.

I already spent a lot of effort explaining to you why it is advantageous to sit on glitched supplies of credits and AI armor and fence them slowly.
Now you want me to explain to you how to play a newbie?
How about you start first and tell me how you make a foreman's twink from a brand-new account?

[Encyros]

Snip

I wasn't brand new by the time I got to 100, having spent plenty of time in the Subway and Totw and Mort Cyborgs levelling leisurely.

Having joined a Clan and done plenty of Foremans runs, I had a pretty good idea of what I was doing.

I'd be interested in your vision of what a newbie would need, as I don't think I fully grasp the 'true newbie' requirements you're referring to.

Naturally a concise guide to making money quickly from scratch and getting up a Foreman's toon would be thinking like a veteran :>

[Esssch]

Let's try this: could you make a shopping list for a newbie trying to get from 1 to 150? I'd like to see what you put in it and how much it totals. Feel free to choose the profession.

7m for a yalm and let's say another 1m (being extremely generous) to roll missions. Maybe 1m more for some shop implants, just to get high enough to where it's viable to roll/make your own.

[semisentient]

"Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - mark twain

lesson learned

I am actually now a little su****ious that grandpa is just trolling and don't believe in anything he says. anyway all my points have been said, if you feel that makes me an exploiter and immoral person then i guess, good job trolling or on being deluded!

edit: in case you are not trolling. here is a simple logic lesson, pointing out a fact that happens to be positive about people doing generally bad things does not mean you condone it. if you are not able to make that simple distinction, then your discussions will hardly ever lead anywhere.

[Antimony]

"Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - mark twain

lesson learned

I am actually now a little su****ious that grandpa is just trolling and don't believe in anything he says. anyway all my points have been said, if you feel that makes me an exploiter and immoral person then i guess, good job trolling or on being deluded!

edit: in case you are not trolling. here is a simple logic lesson, pointing out a fact that happens to be positive about people doing generally bad things does not mean you condone it. if you are not able to make that simple distinction, then your discussions will hardly ever lead anywhere.

ROFL!!!
dude, first you say whoever wants the economy fixed is hyper-jealous of the sploiters, then you make up a bunch of bull how the sploiters made AO better for noobs.
Now you think you get trolled when someone says you are one of them?
Really???

[Antimony]

I do believe that a credit sink needs to be useful for people to actually spend credits on them, and it also needs to be something they want to get more than once.
As new credits are generated constantly some also needs to be removed. Not all of them, as new characters also are created, but some must go to keep inflation down.

I agree that the shops shouldn't be the only source of items, but they could be a complement that rich people can use, and others can get them the normal way. When enough credits have been drained from the game the vendors will be obsolete as they will be too expensive.

Giving the twinking cans a slightly better boost (perhaps one point more) shouldn't give anyone a too great advantage, but I might be very wrong here, I'm not that informed on twinking.

credit sinks look good on paper but never work as intended

if you make people spend lots of credits on social stuff, they won't do it
if you make people spend lots of credits on useful stuff, you reward the sploiters with their trillions and make guys with less credits go to the gold sellers and that rewards the sploiters too. And if the stuff is too good you might upset the game balance too.
I can't really think of any good drain that will work and doesn't reward the sploiters.

[Encyros]

Snip

Inflation in the player economy naturally makes static prices more affordable, whatever the cause.

Getting a yalm used to be a huge deal, inter alia.

I assume that that was the point that was being made.

And, they will. Aspect of the Quabbit costs 1b+, Wicked Tights costs 300m+, Re-fitted backpack costs 500m+. If it were released in a vendor terminal that would be so many billions returned to NPCs