Post your ideas here

[Chrys]

So I "frankly have no idea what SG and [Ebag] have and are pushing for" which is true. Nor do any of the MPs on the forum.

Ebag333: You claimed you had dozens, if not more ideas on boosting MPs, that apparently you've posted in the past year. I couldn't find a single one, searching through this forum or the Game Suggestions forum. So, throw me a bone here, I want to see what these ideas look like A long time ago, you used to acknowledge your playstyle was unusual and not to everyone's taste. But in the recent thread you closed, you seem to hint that you want to impose this idiosyncratic style on all the rest of us some strange RP notions we don't quite understand. So clarity from you, specifically is desired.

SG, feel free to chime in on what you want for endgame MPs

Edit: Or another thought. I made 9 suggestions in the MP forums this year (gawd knows I troll game suggestions and have posted in a million threads there so never mind those). Can you please tell me whether you are for or against these ideas:

1) fear/knockback resist for SS (or Nano interrupt buffline which helps all TLs)
2) blind/fear for Yidira
3) PVP eye symb
4) more def for non-SoZ mps
5) more AR
6) extend duration of pvp debuffs (purge/kit removable of course)
7) composite dominate
8) lesser SS for tl5
9) plea for diversity (more viable weapon choice)

My latest bugbear is melee alpha protection. Agree/disagree?

And alternatives if you have. I wanna see where our professionals see MPs headed.

[Ebag333]

1) fear/knockback resist for SS (or Nano interrupt buffline which helps all TLs)

Nano interrupt good. SS bad. The last thing we need is for a single nano to become even further all encompassing.

2) blind/fear for Yidira

Somewhere I'd already commented on that. Can't find it off hand. I want to say I offered some alternate suggestions on how to do it, but at 1:30 AM my brain is a little fuzzy.

3) PVP eye symb

Already posted that it's a horrible idea and it won't happen (at least not in any of the ways I've seen it suggested). FC will not turn us into an Arty profession.

(That being said, I am pushing for better bow and bow spec weapon support on the new symbs.)

4) more def for non-SoZ mps
5) more AR

Def's not really a problem for MP's at this time. AR isn't really either. At least, the issues that we have with both are issues with all profs (and the way AR/AAD works in general, which is generally broken).

As long as we maintain pace with what other profs get, we're fairly well off.

6) extend duration of pvp debuffs (purge/kit removable of course)

Extension of many of our neglected lines would be better.

7) composite dominate

It's not a bad idea, and one that I fairly like. The problem I see with it is that it won't get used. People will either use NSD or nothing, there are fairly few situations when a small NSD makes a big enough difference to make it worth your while casting.

8) lesser SS for tl5

If I didn't like the original SS what makes you think I'm going to like this?

How about a lesser SS for TL7?

9) plea for diversity (more viable weapon choice)

My latest bugbear is melee alpha protection. Agree/disagree?

The way alpha's function in general is broken.

I don't think we're any more susceptible to melee alpha's than anyone elses. Not sure what your hangup with melee is all about....in many ways I find them easier than ranged.

And alternatives if you have. I wanna see where the professionals see MPs headed.

I don't have the time nor the inclination to go through all my posts and link back to every idea I've thrown out, or agreed with, or offered feedback on. I have to be up in 6 hours to drive 5 hours tomorrow (err...today), and the forecast has blizzard like conditions....should be fun.




You don't need to yell. We're not deaf.

[Chrys]

Def's not really a problem for MP's at this time. AR isn't really either. At least, the issues that we have with both are issues with all profs (and the way AR/AAD works in general, which is generally broken).

As long as we maintain pace with what other profs get, we're fairly well off.

You think our current 2k AR (this in the "Artillery MP" you obviously dislike) is keeping pace? What about 1.7k AR (Scouts Bow MP with 15-20 sec recharge)? What's your pistol AR atm?

Most profs now are complaining that 2.5k isn't enough to hit anything (and it's pretty much true, except vs docs and solds). How are we keeping pace? What's your opinion on bow getting added to CoLA instead of us getting Ranger unlocked?

Extension of many of our neglected lines would be better.

Such as?

It's not a bad idea, and one that I fairly like. The problem I see with it is that it won't get used. People will either use NSD or nothing, there are fairly few situations when a small NSD makes a big enough difference to make it worth your while casting.

You have no idea how useful it would be, given the reqs of new nanos. And smacking a IMQ on top if it really didn't stop them. It won't be better than trader drains at all, so no one can accuse it of being OP (yes, I obviously want a cast time/duration similar to trader drains).

If I didn't like the original SS what makes you think I'm going to like this?

How about a lesser SS for TL7?

Because non-Asmodian MP at tl5 is instasplat. Everything you remember about pre-LE MP pvp performance translates to the same again in tl5 PVP. 1hb is the only viable build at that level but can't kill anything (oh I guess that's where you want MPs to be :/). MPs need alpha protection there, they have much less evades even if they twink 220 symbs on.

The way alpha's function in general is broken.

I don't think we're any more susceptible to melee alpha's than anyone elses.

Er, where do I begin? Acrobat profs have no problems dealing with alpha. Docs and Agents have CH. Traders have drains (yes, good traders are unperkable once they drain). Solds have AMS. Melee vs melee is typically a very good fight. Crats aren't perkable, plus they have snares. Engies have blockers, reflecs and coon (note they can tank a melee alpha while being perkable, unlike us). NTs have blinds, snares and NBG.

We are the only prof that doesn't have sufficient tools (well except get OSB and kite) to deal with melee alpha (SS works fine vs ranged alpha because their perks aren't as good), and FC have been giving every prof alpha protection since LE. But for us, healpet isn't enough. SS isn't enough unless they have sucky AR. NM coon isn't enough. All three of them combined isn't enough, good luck to non-NMs. This is before we even talk about mongo rage. It's such an obvious imbalance that I'm just surprised I even need to convince you. And no we should not kite, or else are you pushing for kiting tools to be added to our toolset? I didn't think so.

Not sure what your hangup with melee is all about....in many ways I find them easier than ranged.

That's because you just kite them. So do I. But ask the melee players if they want kiting fixed. Then ask yourself what would happen to MP do if that were fixed? We both agree kiting is broken. Melee are not easy if you get caught out, at all. So 100% win one way then 100% win the other way... sigh why am I repeating myself again?

You don't need to yell. We're not deaf.

You don't need to edit my posts.

Why should you push MPs into your idiosyncratic playstyle? Years ago Teoretik handed your ass to you about this, none of the MPs who actually PVP want to be unable to kill people like you are satisfied with. You made a snide remark about how all the MPs quit (presumably to make yourself look good about your "staying power"?) when perhaps that has something to do with the boring-ness and predictability of MP pvp, the lack of updates and the general invisibility of our professionals in spite of it all?

So you say there's more to PVP than killing people... do you realise how stupid that sounds? Either you support people to kill people, or you kill them yourself. And in terms of support, given our debuff toolset doesn't do shiz against keepers, enfs, solds, etc. and barely anything at all vs several while making us alpha-able without SS (take a look at the HUD3/bracer items that got completed while you were AFK from the game, that's the difference between 2007 and now), then what, we're supposed to be inferior partners in the PVP game? Just gnats who can't do anything? That's what traders were before GTH and AS on silverback, but thankfully trader professionals actually didn't have your strange values and now they are back up again (ofc still not as uber as they were pre-SL but everyone agrees that was a bit too imbalanced).

[Chrys]

One more thing I want to add, since your comment on debuff durations made me wonder why you think they're such a low priority:

A debuffer is inconsequential atm, primarily because debuffs are so easily removable, or last so short as to just kite off. That's why shield MPs are inconsequential, there's no reason why your version of pistol MP isn't just as inconsequential, with the worse problem that you can't ninjacap points like shield MPs can.

When I meet shield MPs, alpha healpet (oO NSD? lol), bai. If I were to meet you with my sold (or if a melee prof encountered you), it would be almost the same thing, except alpha you, bai. I'm not quite sure how you can support your teammates while kiting. Your main recourse is to hope you dont get targeted, which is a pretty dumb thing to rely on.

What do you "hurt" people with in your debuffs? Scourges? lol those are barely noticeable with the huge amount of heal/nano efficiency these days. ENSD? 15 seconds. Insta-removable. Normal NSD? lol good luck landing, also insta-removable. CoC? lol good luck landing, 5 seconds. SS? That hurts your team at the cost of protection for yourself, nor does it block melee alphas. Dominates? Your said they don't make a big enough difference, so I know you don't use it regularly. Damage debuffs? Ok that's just silly now, right? Given how many trox shades there are on BS these days, I think if you actually went there, you'd only be able to harm (but still not kill) greens and gimps (guess what, I can harm and kill greens and gimps).

I mean I'm not sure how you get the somewhat inflated self-conception of being the most dangerous player on BS when shield MPs who have better def than you and can hurt people far more than your useless pistols can, yet are basically inconsequential except for their ability to ninjacap. All I can think of is you're hopelessly out of touch with PVP and simply full of hot air.

[Klodovik]

Double AS Tigress (call it Cheetah, Snow Tigress, ccl, just gief ), or bust.

[Chrys]

Double AS Tigress (call it Cheetah, Snow Tigress, ccl, just gief ), or bust.

Arctic Warfare Tigress plz

[Ebag333]

Since any discussion with you simply ends up with you stating that I don't know what I'm doing talking about (or I guess I don't have any items that have been part of my equip for the better part of the year), and you're not interested in an intelligent conversation where you actually look beyond your small little world of four letters (AS/SS), I'm sure you won't mind if I don't take up any more of your valuable time by arguing with you.




You know Chrys, if you want support for your ideas you certainly have a funny way of going about it.

[Chrys]

So I take it you can't find your supposed dozens of ideas in the past year, just posturing for effect.

I also see you don't want people to pvp the way they like to pvp, just the way you think they should pvp despite being told over several years that your way is not the way the majority of PVP mps (most of whom started long before you) want to PVP.

You claimed I don't understand the "non-AS/SS MP". You think I don't play a debuff-based MP? I have one at tl4 (omg a player with 2 mps!), can't hit for **** (asmodian/parry stick) and is dead frustrating. Even with pets that hurt/heal/mezz a heckload more at that level than 220. It's still inconsequential to good players (but damn hard to kill) - I know exactly what you're talking about, far more than you think, which is why I can write off what you're saying between my experience with a pure debuff role, my watching shield MPs in BS in the last few months and how players have adapted to them, and your claims that are clearly based on your experience some time in 2007. Never mind watching pure-debuff MPs at tara and towers (Electronite running around trying to ENSD people in July was pure Kodak moments).

I knew you'd duck out of a frank conversation and be unable to back up any of your claims. Thanks for proving me right.

[Klodovik]

Noone liked my 2hb thunder-stick idea back then (nukes, nukes and then some more nukes) so I guess AS is the only way to go.

[Chrys]

Noone liked my 2hb thunder-stick idea back then (nukes, nukes and then some more nukes) so I guess AS is the only way to go.

Well given how many threads upon threads upon threads are calling for NSD, scourge and damage debuff nerfs, it's clear that's what hurts opponents most!

Oh wait... they're all asking for AS nerfs Ebag is probably their wet dream MP professional... hm debuffs I can kite off, remove or ignore, or something that can take huge chunks of HP out of me, which shall I choose?

P.S. I don't mind thunderstick, we used to be 3rd best nuker in game, we still kind of are but only 2hb MPs bother with IMQ as a source of damage these days...

[Flynicist]

New ideas... Why do you want us to be "more original"? MP is fine atm if played extremmely right (and some luck tho) If we don't have AR for anything, AS will be our only solution, we could find new ideas about debuffs, and casting nanos.

[Xtremtech]

Replying to the original post, there's a couple of things to say.

1) Professionals activity that affects change (if at all) tends to take place in private forums designed for the purpose of interaction between FC/Devs and Profs. Discussions and joint action on the test server and also discussions on specific IRC channels are also useful areas for the professional to lobby for change.

Saying you don't see much Profs activity in the MP and Game Suggestions forums, doesn't really say anything about the level of activity that they are actually getting out there.

2) Professionals should represent the ideas of the whole community when lobbying in those private areas. But in public areas there's nothing wrong with them asserting their own point of view and arguing for it. But when you see one of the Profs arguing for a particular standpoint here, that doesn't necessarily mean that they're not also arguing your own point of view in the professionals forums.

3) Even if a particular Professional seems to have diametrically opposed ideas to yours, then you have another professional who may balance that bias out in the professionals forums. You cannot expect that professionals will necessarily agree with your standpoint on all issues... and frankly, trying to persuade them of your point of view is fairly pointless, since the professionals can argue the opinions of various segments of the MP community without necessarily believing in them personally.

Another thing that professionals also need to take care of, is that the highly vocal subsections of the MP community that make a lot of noise here on the forum, shouldn't completely drown out the less vocal points of view that are under-represented here. In particular, there's a huge and vocal lobby for high level PvPers, though they actually represent a very small minority of MPs.

The basic premise of this thread is rather beligerent to be honest and pointedly selfish imho. And if your goal was to try to win over the professionals to better represent your own lobbying interests, you could have gone about it in a much more persuasive and less estranging way. The more strident and dogmatic you become, the less influence you're actually likely to have in the end.

X

[Shareida]

Suggestion.... SS should only be castable on a hostile target. Both parts in the same nano line, dot part higher stacking order, reduce recharge to 5 seconds max, but lock the nano for 1 minute instead.

[Chrys]

Replying to the original post, there's a couple of things to say.

1) Professionals activity that affects change (if at all) tends to take place in private forums designed for the purpose of interaction between FC/Devs and Profs. Discussions and joint action on the test server and also discussions on specific IRC channels are also useful areas for the professional to lobby for change.

Saying you don't see much Profs activity in the MP and Game Suggestions forums, doesn't really say anything about the level of activity that they are actually getting out there.

No, but the level of dialogue is indicative of how much they care. Ebag was basically claiming he does a whole lot even though he was invisible for 4 months. That's basically 0 accountability, and he's being challenged to say exactly what he did. He hasn't come up with anything in the past year publicly, and I don't expect he will. It wasn't me who insisted he post publicly, it was he himself who claimed he had "dozens of ideas if not more" posted on the forums in the past year. He made the claim, and I'm telling him to back it up. Because I sure as heck can't see any of his ideas in the past 12 months after searching through all his posts.

2) Professionals should represent the ideas of the whole community when lobbying in those private areas. But in public areas there's nothing wrong with them asserting their own point of view and arguing for it. But when you see one of the Profs arguing for a particular standpoint here, that doesn't necessarily mean that they're not also arguing your own point of view in the professionals forums.

I'm well aware of that. But in the posts you see him admit that it's SG who passes on stuff from the community while he attempts to be the gatekeeper arguing against ideas he disagrees with being passed through. That... well if Professionals see themselves as a gatekeeper rather than the conduit, while having zero indication what they're actually doing, then it is cause to worry.

3) Even if a particular Professional seems to have diametrically opposed ideas to yours, then you have another professional who may balance that bias out in the professionals forums. You cannot expect that professionals will necessarily agree with your standpoint on all issues... and frankly, trying to persuade them of your point of view is fairly pointless, since the professionals can argue the opinions of various segments of the MP community without necessarily believing in them personally.

What I know is that the Professionals programme is currently dead. Fixers, agents to some extent, and a whole lot more are wondering what the heck happened to the profession - Aratink quit for half a year and FC haven't noticed. So if Ebag had done the same for four months it could just as easily have gone unnoticed. But now he's back. And claiming he had
"dozens of ideas (if not more)" he posted in the forums. I'm asking where are they.

Another thing that professionals also need to take care of, is that the highly vocal subsections of the MP community that make a lot of noise here on the forum, shouldn't completely drown out the less vocal points of view that are under-represented here. In particular, there's a huge and vocal lobby for high level PvPers, though they actually represent a very small minority of MPs.

It might be to do that (1) PVM is in a fine state, hell PVM is too easy as is (2) FC aren't adding significant content sub-tl7 and (3) PVP is where balance problems exist. In short, if the rest arent working or FC priorities, it's PVP that we talk about. And we all know the game now is 220-heavy and that's where the majority of attention is going, with new content there every patch which always has implications for PVP balance while consistently just making PVM easier.

The basic premise of this thread is rather beligerent to be honest and pointedly selfish imho. And if your goal was to try to win over the professionals to better represent your own lobbying interests, you could have gone about it in a much more persuasive and less estranging way. The more strident and dogmatic you become, the less influence you're actually likely to have in the end.

No, I've no interest in winning Ebag over as I suspect he'll vanish for a few more months and be just as ineffectual in the future as he has been in the past year. Look at what MPs got of late? Shield of Zset, which he admits he was opposed to, so therefore he had no effect on that. 1hb love, which is long past its sell-by date and which the one or two remaining 1hb MPs popped in briefly to scoff at, but which received no changes between test and live, so he had no effect on that. Poison damage modifier, which is nice vs the 30% of profs with coon during the few times they actually use that, which he admits was precious little, yet he had no effect on that...

Winning over Ebag - after he claimed I had no understanding of his idiosyncratic style of PVP when I do in fact have a debuff-oriented PVP MP and have witnessed the ineffectiveness of the current shield MP while not having seen him online never mind pvp in over six months (yes he's on my friends list) - was really never the intention with this thread. Moreso when it became clear that our debuffing strength, with our meagre debuffs (the one debuff we have which is actually gamechanging is the NSD proc, and 'artillery' MPs are the ones most likely to use it ), was not really at the top of his priorities.

[Chrys]

Suggestion.... SS should only be castable on a hostile target. Both parts in the same nano line, dot part higher stacking order, reduce recharge to 5 seconds max, but lock the nano for 1 minute instead.

lol this is a nerf to SS when it's problem is it doesn't do enough already even when casted on self as is. Why do you want it nerfed, hm?

[shadowgod]

No, but the level of dialogue is indicative of how much they care. Ebag was basically claiming he does a whole lot even though he was invisible for 4 months. That's basically 0 accountability, and he's being challenged to say exactly what he did. He hasn't come up with anything in the past year publicly, and I don't expect he will. It wasn't me who insisted he post publicly, it was he himself who claimed he had "dozens of ideas if not more" posted on the forums in the past year. He made the claim, and I'm telling him to back it up. Because I sure as heck can't see any of his ideas in the past 12 months after searching through all his posts.

you're not going to like hearing this. but alot of the lack of "this is what we're doing.." isnt to hide a lack of doing.. but rather, the issues we face with what is NDA and what isnt. so we generally just err on the side of caution.

and despite the professionals program being "dead" at the moment.. it hasnt stopped us from relaying info and having discussions in the channels provided to us.

not to mention it was never garanteed FC would listen to the professionals to begin with.

[Chrys]

you're not going to like hearing this. but alot of the lack of "this is what we're doing.." isnt to hide a lack of doing.. but rather, the issues we face with what is NDA and what isnt. so we generally just err on the side of caution.

Well if you look at say, engy or agent professionals, you see them commenting on every idea, you see them coming up with their own ideas requesting feedback, you see them indicating which threads are good for passing on to FC, you see them defend their professions against others, etc. All these tell you something about where they see the profession stands or where they'd like it to be. You don't have to tell us "I'm currently advocating that FC give us triple-procing double-AS NSD-debuff-nuke" to let us have some kind of indication where you're pushing.

We instead get a dead forum with mostly just Klod and I talking to ourselves xD

not to mention it was never garanteed FC would listen to the professionals to begin with.

I'm well aware of that

[Dancingrage]

Bah, I post long and entertaining idea threads with gobs of new ideas and watch them quietly fall into the abyss of the archives so I just stopped posting for the bulk of it bar the few folks who had MP questions that could use my perspective. I've posted a few idea threads recently, 18.o dropped into the abyss already, and I've just posted one here for fun.

[shadowgod]

Well if you look at say, engy or agent professionals, you see them commenting on every idea, you see them coming up with their own ideas requesting feedback, you see them indicating which threads are good for passing on to FC, you see them defend their professions against others, etc. All these tell you something about where they see the profession stands or where they'd like it to be. You don't have to tell us "I'm currently advocating that FC give us triple-procing double-AS NSD-debuff-nuke" to let us have some kind of indication where you're pushing.

We instead get a dead forum with mostly just Klod and I talking to ourselves xD

if i commented on every idea or suggestion.....

well.. i'm sure i'd get banned real quick. not to mention, the flak i'd get cause "omfg you're not lvl 54304201e10+5!!". since alot of suggestions come from bored no-more-game level people.

besides.. i have to spend most my time harrasing people on irc. and i just cant let them down after all these years (years longer than me being a prof).

[Xtremtech]

My point about the programme specific forums and other channels would be that Ebag saying he's posted stuff to the forums would no doubt include forums that are private to the programme, that you wouldn't see. I know from experience that it's quite difficult to keep track of what's posted where when you're a professional. You remember posting the ideas... but can't be sure whether it was in public or private forums.

As to this forum being fairly dead recently, that's a symptom of a few things. Firstly that the MP isn't doing too badly at the moment all round. Secondly, it's part of the general reduction in activity in AO as a whole, with dwindling new subs. When people aren't complaining much and when newbies aren't coming in asking questions, forum traffic always does tend to drop like a stone.

Finally, it's true that the Professionals aren't really accountable. They aren't elected by the community of course - they're chosen by FC. Their activity goes on in private areas where you can't see it, so it's not a transparent programme either. You are indeed left with trusting that the Profs are representing the ideas of the comunity. FC do have that accountability control though. The community team see all of the forums and will be able to see whether the professionals are representing their communities reasonably. Importantly, you also have the ability to post your own ideas in the various public forums, the best and most important f which also come to the attention of the community team and get reported back to devs by them.

There's more to say on the subject, but as always NDAs get in the way. I'm by no means saying that the MP profs do a perfect job. I'd personally like to see more Wishlist activity and general discussion being promoted by them... but I'm, sure that they're doing a decent job all in all and they're certainly by no means the worst of the professionals.

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