New TL7 Trader drains...

[Humchum]

The thing that make AO pvp laughable/boring/retarded is very simple to describe...

As long as you are not 220 fully twinked the pvp can be sumed up like this:

target resisted, you missed, you hit for 0 bullets.
And the other side 220 twinked crush you in a blink of an eye.

No progression at all just a 200% steep curve, you go from i cant do anything to i can have fun at last.

And being 220 fully equiped is a long way to go.Therefore many just wont bother and quit.

Thats also why BS is full of crap, people that aren't with that kind of MUST have requirements just run from a cap point to another mindlessly...

With on top of that the crazy balancing problems that FC mainly made worse over time, NT triples/doubles, giving AS to everyone and their moma, adding totally absurd nanos like GTH/nemesis etc etc.

[Hacre]

The thing that make AO pvp laughable/boring/retarded is very simple to describe...

As long as you are not 220 fully twinked the pvp can be sumed up like this:

target resisted, you missed, you hit for 0 bullets.
And the other side 220 twinked crush you in a blink of an eye.

No progression at all just a 200% steep curve, you go from i cant do anything to i can have fun at last.

And being 220 fully equiped is a long way to go.Therefore many just wont bother and quit.

Thats also why BS is full of crap, people that aren't with that kind of MUST have requirements just run from a cap point to another mindlessly...

With on top of that the crazy balancing problems that FC mainly made worse over time, NT triples/doubles, giving AS to everyone and their moma, adding totally absurd nanos like GTH/nemesis etc etc.

At risk of straying off topic, you have a pretty good point here, but it also depends on profession.

My Crat, which I stripped when I last took a break from game, is currently in a largely PvM setup, dual pistols, mostly alpha symbs with a couple of cognizants still in as I need to find Intelligents. Armour wise, I'm missing ~50 def rating, but I am missing a good 200ish attack rating. No AS pistol, just Dread and Xan pistol.

My survivability compared to my twinked out AS Tiger setup with CSS in all spots except helm in PvP, as well as my damage output, is absolutely laughable.

However, by the same token, I can still get kills with my NT, despite wearing a HP/defence setup, due to being able to make use of blinds, a damage mitigation tool and the enabler that is Constant Barrage (only frustration with CB is it adds a sometimes suicidal addition in time to the fight).

[Humchum]

NT is the only prof which escapes that rule that comes to mind quite quick.

Due to an easy time to get good AR, add nano dammage and the fact that many profs can't get rocket high NR.

And also it's only cause of doubles/triples the infamous IWIN button.


And the stupid AR race is increased by the fact that most dammage is inflicted through perks/specials.

Easy fix, reduce perk dammage in pvp only, make different checks(lowers) for regular hits.

An exemple is traders, i always saw a trader as a salesman with a big shotgun that crit you to death with nice debuffs.
FC solution? AS GIEV(retarded), debuffs so powerfull that not only they turn a 220 into a level 75 twink but also kill the fun of pvp.

Got hit with 2 drains and GTH? what will you do? /rage /quit /log out.Good job FC mission accomplished!
the same goes for TL5...

Also FC never, ever listen to player base at least untill now but i'll wait to see the results of the so called balancing and new engine which are atm only sweet promises...

Why won't they make a level 140/150 BS? all S10 twinks could have fun bashing each others without the 174 ones annoying them.
150 ->174 is already a nice gap for pvp.

The only factor that kept AO alive for so long is the way you build your toon, can twink and the huge quantities of items/zones in this game.Just my opinion though.

Sorry for "off topic" and nerf traders!

[Tergx]

well said.

I don't bother with the battletation mindless, predictable pvp since I had to suffer through it on 3 x 220 characters for the LE stuff. There is nothing fun about it after that much VP. If I go back now, after a long absence from it, it would be fun for an extremely short time though. Maybe I'm just spoiled since I was here before and after NW went live.

The thing that make AO pvp laughable/boring/retarded is very simple to describe...

As long as you are not 220 fully twinked the pvp can be sumed up like this:

target resisted, you missed, you hit for 0 bullets.
And the other side 220 twinked crush you in a blink of an eye.

No progression at all just a 200% steep curve, you go from i cant do anything to i can have fun at last.

And being 220 fully equiped is a long way to go.Therefore many just wont bother and quit.

Thats also why BS is full of crap, people that aren't with that kind of MUST have requirements just run from a cap point to another mindlessly...

With on top of that the crazy balancing problems that FC mainly made worse over time, NT triples/doubles, giving AS to everyone and their moma, adding totally absurd nanos like GTH/nemesis etc etc.

[Infamine]

I think the problem (call it flawed game design) comes from pvm at the start.

As long as harder pvm will mean more hp / more dmg for mobs hence more dmg needed, etc... the pvp part of the game will be affected in a wrong manner.

NW pvp was "balanced" because the game was a point where the damage/hp/evades/gear wasnt totally out of contrally, and in a constant overbid.
That was like being on he edge of a razorblade, any change made to the game not well thought, and the balance would fall, and that's exactly what happened with the SL failure...

I think it's pretty brave for the actual dev team to try to make things stand on the same edge, i can just hope they will actually succeed, but one key to reaching that spot, is to think pvm differently also, stop adding numbers to the mobs hp/dmg/armor/evades/nr/etc... you get my point...

It's hard to stay calm when something so important is being changed, and we all want the same thing, the game to be funnier for everyone...


Edit: Just thinking of something, pvp dungeon failure because we dont want to be rats in a cage, should've made dev think about bs... and also why the gas% changes in some areas ...

[Kinkstaah]

you have nothing to add except the ubiquitous "nerf traders" idea that has been going on since the game launched. The nerf trader crowd had their day when shadowlands launched, now is a different time.

When traders are more powerful than they have ever been?

Really though, the drains are supposed to make opponents less efffective. that is our defense

Read the post about undergeared people in 220 BS, then consider what one simple click does to people from a good trader. Two clicks from a trader render any target so useless they technically wouldnt be able to join the 210+ BS if that was their natural statistics.

Drains removal ? come on thats overkill, drains have always been there, it's what makes trader unique...

Drains in the past existed mainly to boost the trader. Sure, the AR nerf was a bit sucky pre-sl, but the main issue was the powerhouse DD a drained up trader was with huge AR when that made a big difference. You could still take them down because you could hit them. Now, not only does their offence still hurt, they are effectively unstoppable after you have been drained by them.

I can understand how frustrating it can be to lose perk effectiveness, but dont blame it on the drains, rather on the perk design itself, i actually have a proposal

It is what it is. There are of course alternate fixes to any problem.

Also i fought Abid with my soldier countless time one on one as we were both trying to figure out ways to kill each other with different setups, drained, not drained, predraining or not, with me giving him rrfe or not, etc... and i can say at one point we ended up not being able to kill each other no matter how hard we tried, just to say, theres alway a way to deal with things...
Now maybe some people feel like drains as they are atm, are like what eqb was (reg hits hurting as much as other weapons critical for the one that didnt experience it...) but thats because of the way the game is designed, not the drains themselves, hence the proposal i made...

There was no such thing as "two people being unable to kill each other" pre-sl. Other than doc v doc, and even then the fights did end. And traders would always eventually die to soldiers due to hellfury burst which didn't miss.

where in the pvp argument is the notion that anyone should be immune to the effects of being attacked by someone, whether it be damage or negative effects. It's hilarious. Words like "useless" and "overpowered" are thrown all over the place out of context.

They shouldn't - Which is what is wrong with trader drains (and/or perk system) is once you are drained, the trader is immune to your attacks. That's what's so frustrating about it, and thats what needs to change.

NW pvp was "balanced" because the game was a point where the damage/hp/evades/gear wasnt totally out of contrally, and in a constant overbid.
That was like being on he edge of a razorblade, any change made to the game not well thought, and the balance would fall, and that's exactly what happened with the SL failure...

You are seeing pre-sl balance through rose tinted glasses. It was good, if you were one of the classes that could PVP. There was a good (30%? More?) of classes which had effectively ZERO pvp ability. That's far worse overall balance than the game is now.

[Tergx]

yeah, like I said, you want the trader to be less effective at doing what a trader does, making you less effective. You just contradicted yourself but at this point there is no reason to continue this thread anymore, it will just be a bunch of long winded multi-part quote/replies like Kinks.

least Kink is entertaining

They shouldn't - Which is what is wrong with trader drains (and/or perk system) is once you are drained, the trader is immune to your attacks. That's what's so frustrating about it, and thats what needs to change.
.

[Kinkstaah]

yeah, like I said, you want the trader to be less effective at doing what a trader does, making you less effective.

Exactly. Traders are FAR too good at doing it in the current game. As Kaz says, its an instant cast, 40m "lol, I win now!" The concept is fine, the implementation and mechanics is absurd atm.

[Saetos]

Exactly. Traders are FAR too good at doing it in the current game. As Kaz says, its an instant cast, 40m "lol, I win now!" The concept is fine, the implementation and mechanics is absurd atm.

Alright, so you want Trader drains to be less effective; I can see that.

The problem arises however when you realize that almost any change to the Trader drain mechanics would compromise their performance in PvM: as a profression based on draining their enemies and being able to equip weapons that no other player of an equivalent level could equip.

Keeping that in mind what would you rather see the drains do?

[Kazeren]

Correct me if iam wrong. but...
650 weapon/nano skills, 650 AAO, and 350 AAD, and 30% crit a trader can drain, and get back 550 weapon/nano skills, 600 AAO, and 300 AAD. How is that right in pvp in any manner? Sure it can be resisted, and it can take awhile to cast, but it only takes one drain to cripple someone enough so the trader doesn't even need to worry about casting all the others.

Drains needs to be nerfed in pvp. For pvm i don't see a problem with drains. Simplest way to allow a fix for drains would be to make current ones pvm and have FC make new ones that are reasonable. If this actually happened traders could try to get a alternative form of defense via new nanos rather then have more stupidly OP crippling nanos granted to them. By new i mean ones that fit them, not more "I am taking everything you have" type of nanos.

[Saetos]

Drains needs to be nerfed in pvp. For pvm i don't see a problem with drains. Simplest way to allow a fix for drains would be to make current ones pvm and have FC make new ones that are reasonable. If this actually happened traders could try to get a alternative form of defense via new nanos rather then have more stupidly OP crippling nanos granted to them. By new i mean ones that fit them, not more "I am taking everything you have" type of nanos.

Drains will apparently be given differing durations in PVP and PVM, so depending on what timer they put on the PVP version this may work out anyway.

[Kazeren]

Time is one thing, the huge crippling effect is the other, and the main concern for the rest of the community.

[Saetos]

To my best knowledge the drains as they are now are designed like they should be; they should be devastating to the person we target.

The fundamental problem with the drain mechanics that most PVP encounters are very small scale; if we find only 1, 2, even 3 people travelling in rather loose groups, we can have a field day. In towers PVP, drains don't do *that* much since, again, we can only affect one target and by the time we land Divest the target is probably already at 10% HP. In medium-scale 4v4 or whatnot, we can do "as intended" by draining support toons so that our side can kill the other guys more easily, etc. But if it's 2v1, 2v2, what have you, a Trader is going to flip the world upside down, and that's what we're designed to do.

We were built to be awesome in 1v1 combat, and that's how it should be. If you plan on going somewhere alone with a Trader on the other side then you are going to be having some difficulty, no questions.

[Kinkstaah]

Alright, so you want Trader drains to be less effective; I can see that.

The problem arises however when you realize that almost any change to the Trader drain mechanics would compromise their performance in PvM: as a profression based on draining their enemies and being able to equip weapons that no other player of an equivalent level could equip.

Keeping that in mind what would you rather see the drains do?

Is this how Traders operate at 220? By equipping things others can't?
No.

How about back scaling their 220 toolset, so that their "thing" isnt equipping higher QL weapons, which for the most part is an advantage that stops about level 60 nowadays.

To my best knowledge the drains as they are now are designed like they should be; they should be devastating to the person we target.

The fundamental problem with the drain mechanics that most PVP encounters are very small scale; if we find only 1, 2, even 3 people travelling in rather loose groups, we can have a field day. In towers PVP, drains don't do *that* much since, again, we can only affect one target and by the time we land Divest the target is probably already at 10% HP. In medium-scale 4v4 or whatnot, we can do "as intended" by draining support toons so that our side can kill the other guys more easily, etc. But if it's 2v1, 2v2, what have you, a Trader is going to flip the world upside down, and that's what we're designed to do.

We were built to be awesome in 1v1 combat, and that's how it should be. If you plan on going somewhere alone with a Trader on the other side then you are going to be having some difficulty, no questions.

Are you? is that right? I don't think so. Being able to obliterate a single opponent isnt kosher. Draining your opponent's abilities (i'd rather see drains like draining their evades, massive crit % resistance debuffing) is fine and dandy, but a "lol I win cause you cant do anything" is over the top.

(and thats before you count gth, cp, etc)

[Wrangeline]

Are you? is that right? I don't think so. Being able to obliterate a single opponent isnt kosher. Draining your opponent's abilities (i'd rather see drains like draining their evades, massive crit % resistance debuffing) is fine and dandy, but a "lol I win cause you cant do anything" is over the top.

(and thats before you count gth, cp, etc)

If traders can't quickly turn a 1 vs 1 fight in their favor (if nanos land), then traders need just as much omni-directional defense as other professions get. If you want traders to be average in 1 vs 1 then we need to be average in omni-directional defense as well. Which we aren't.

So as I see it, if you think traders defensive capabilities and damage-dealing abilities in PvP are good enough as they are, then you are forcing yourself to agree that traders should be very very good in 1 vs 1. If not, then you are not using logic as far as I see it.

[Saetos]

Is this how Traders operate at 220? By equipping things others can't?
No.

How about back scaling their 220 toolset, so that their "thing" isnt equipping higher QL weapons, which for the most part is an advantage that stops about level 60 nowadays.

Well, once you get into TL5, TL6 and up, drains do stop becoming twinking tools and become AR-boosting tools. You're absolutely right.

You have to realize, though, that any change done to any of the drains would most likely trickle down into the lower QL drains as well, since they work in the same fashion. "Scaling back 220 toolset" could be rather dangerous, since we 1) depend on these drains for a -300 AAO debuff in PVM, especially soloing; 2) depend on these drains for a good-sized AR debuff to get our rather complicated toolset up to speed (of course, if our toolset was universally good instead of powerful skill drains and loltastic AC/health drains maybe that argument would carry more weight. Hint hint FunCom, health/AC drains are horribly outdated ); and 3) depend on these drains for allowing us to cast high QL nanos and wear high QL weapons at low level. Any change to these that would affect Trader PVM in a negative fashion would not be something I'd be willing to go for.

Are you? is that right? I don't think so. Being able to obliterate a single opponent isnt kosher. Draining your opponent's abilities (i'd rather see drains like draining their evades, massive crit % resistance debuffing) is fine and dandy, but a "lol I win cause you cant do anything" is over the top.

(and thats before you count gth, cp, etc)

So you want us to not be able to drain weaponskills/nanoskills? Keep in mind that, again, we depend on lowering our opponent's attack rating to be able to gain a footing in PVP combat, so that we can start our little rigamaroll to gain enough of a footing to win the fight. If we're not able to modify AR or stop other nanos, then we're pretty much doomed.

[Kazeren]

{Edited by Venachar: Unconstructive content removed.}

Correct me if iam wrong. but...
650 weapon/nano skills, 650 AAO, and 350 AAD, and 30% crit a trader can drain, and get back 550 weapon/nano skills, 600 AAO, and 300 AAD.

So drains + AAO drains = 1950 AR drained from the target. The benefits the trader gets from drains and AAO debuff is 1700 AR to themselves. Add in the AAD debuff and thats basically another free 350 AR you've gained while adding to your defense even further. Explain to me how lowering someones AR nearly 2k while boosting your own by 2050 (counting their lowered aad) is anywhere near acceptable? This isnt even counting procs.

[Saetos]

So drains + AAO drains = 1950 AR drained from the target. The benefits the trader gets from drains and AAO debuff is 1700 AR to themselves.

Divest Skills Nanite Improved:
-475 AAO / +275 AAO / +0 AAD
Plunder Skills Nanite Improved:
-475 AAO / +275 AAO / +0 AAD
Corporate Protection:
-350 AAO / +0 AAO / +300 AAD
========================
-1300 AAO / +550 AAO / +300 AAD


Whatchu talkin' about, Willis?

[Wrangeline]

Kazeren, where are you getting those numbers?

[Kazeren]

Lowers all attacking and nano skills of the target by 325 points, transferring 275 points back to the caster. The target will also lose 150 points of offensive ability and decreased chance of a critical hit.x2

Lowers the offensive ability of the target player by 350 and increases the defensive capabilities of the caster by 300.

Lowers the defensive ability of the target player by 350 and increases the offensive capabilities of the caster by 300.

Like i asked before, i assume they all stack and asked if i was wrong, no pointed out if i was and proved it though. So mind telling me if the AAO/AAD drains stack or not before i go calc some numbers again?

I add things together thats how, how else??