Crat debuffs

[ragerayden]

Keep them very good with CC.

1) You failed right at the beginning.
2) Our boss calm already got nerfed

I don't want to quote myself but you deserve it, here what you get in any boss encounter:

Roots: resisted
Snares: resisted
Stuns: resisted
Fears: resisted
Calms: resisted
Charms: resisted

It's not enough for you ? What's your problem really ? It's already 5 nanos with different durations.

You also should not mix CC & debuffs since most of time you only use one & not the latter.

[Josephina]

Really? How about making a list to drive this point home. I know of a few bosses who are UBT proof, and that's about it. I don't think you have much of a point here, sorry. I'll give you a list of endgame boss mobs that are immune to malaise: none.


No reason to discount something just because it breaks very fast. Doctors can also hit very fast with pistols. So you're alternating between -1206 and -2596 for a total of -3775 when everything procs at once. Again, I don't think you have much of a point here. If you're honestly trying to pretend that doc init procs aren't significant, we can just agree to disagree, as I say you are unreasonable.Scary math that shows that Anatomic Blight breaks very fast in team. You can call that unreasonable if you want, I call it math. Where did you get the 1206? Astringent that breaks even faster than Anatomic Blight? Muscular Malaise, the only doctor proc that is not breakable, debuffs 908. As XenonDe has said as well already, Anatomic Blight is OP solo or in small teams. Right now crat buffs alone, without any additional init debuffs from any other profession, are OP in every situation. I consider these separate issues and I personally give a much higher priority to the crat debuffs being OP in every possible situation.




Doctors can proc + ubt for more than crats can debuff, and on mobs docs can't ubt, even granting that the one proc breaks sometimes so fast that it could be considered instantly, the difference is what, around -1850 for crats versus -1200 for doctors? I guess my understanding of the words 'far below' differs from yours. Strange numbers again. The total of unbreakable crat init debuffs is 2531, that of doctor is 908. I call that far below.



Sure, you can start with any raid in which you're low on heal power and otherwise wouldn't be able to do the raid without too much init debuffs. Following that, any raid where you're low on tanking power, I could go on all day. So what you're basically saying is that when the total amount of crat init debuffing is lowered to the point of not being completely OP anymore, then you couldn't do the raid in the same team setup anymore. I would call that a given indeed, but it does not mean that the raid becomes impossible like you said earlier.

Also, I'll draw your attention to the fact that whatever point you're trying to make by comparing doc procs to crat procs, you seem to be missing my point, which is that there are a lot of init debuffs ingame and most of them stack. My point in mentioning doc procs? Crat debuffs stack with them. You think it's OP that crats have too much init debuffs? It's all the more so that docs can proc a mob that crats have already debuffed. The permanent init debuffing of crats alone is far too much for any encounter, if any init debuffing has to be nerfed, it is these. If the LE procs are changed muscular malaise is likely to go the way of the dodo, leaving only a shade proc for 850 that can be cept running permanently by a single player, every other debuff is either short duration or highly breakable.

Which again, brings me to my point that active debuffs aren't necessarily the problem here. Perhaps the problem is that pvm mobs are too generic when debuffed. Alternative behavior could solve this problem and make pvm more challenging when crats have init debuffs, docs have procs and ubt, and when it's the most problem, when crats and docs are working together.



If you think taking away a long term toolset is going to be easy, think again. Who said anything about taking away all init debuffs of crats? I know I didn't. And my point stands, you're making it too simple. If you nerf inits to the point that pvm is challenging, then there's no point in casting inits If it's not completely OP, it suddenly becomes not worth using anymore? Between the black and white of overpowered and useless, there's a whole grey zone where it could be useful while not being overpowerd. In my opinion, that is the area in which the profession's toolsets should be situated., which means it's no fun for the players to use their toolsets. I disagree with your statement that not having completely overpowered tools at your disposal would make the game unfun. If you change the mob AI so that inits make them gimpier, but not completely useless, you have a win win—players get to use their toolsets and feel useful, but it's not a simple 'i-win' button anymore. Or you could just change a few nanos to get the same effect, but then that would of course be direct nerf, which could be implemented now instead of whenever.



Ever heard of object oriented programming? The idea is that you code the template for how something works once, then you can call it as many times as you need to anywhere else and reuse the code without having to actually recode the feature every time you want to use it. A few items (short database entries) are overpowered, lets implement a completely new system so that we can introduce the mechanics needed to overcome these few overpowered numbers. This sure sounds like a good plan, what is the eta? Before or after the new engine releases? I'm also going to state for the record that I am not against implementing a system that would allow FC to implement better AI easier, but this would be a very longterm major project, while the AO team is very small and doing other stuff as well.

I'm not a FC developer, but adding a default behavior to boss mobs that says 'if init debuffed, do such and such' should not be as difficult as you might imagine. And again, I've already demonstrated that it's not one profession having too much init debuffing, it's a combination of there being just a lot of init debuffing ingame. You haven't demonstrated anything, unless you consider that saying Anatomic Blight doesn't break fast -despite evidence to the contrary- makes it so. I can do the math for crat init debuffs to know that these alone are OP and I have repeatedly seen demonstrations of their power in endgame raids, where the crat init debuffs alone were enough to trivialize the encounter.

@Saetos

Crat's aren't a Jesus profession. You say stuff like that, and then pretend to be surprised when people are irritable with you, but I know better. The truth is, most encounters and most mob AI is such that a lot of our CC doesn't work. I can't think of the last time roots were useful to me in pvm, snares are only useful sometimes in extreme soloing situations, none of our AOE stuff works really, fears don't do anything in pvm, etc... so when it comes right down to it, the only thing bureaucrats really have for reliable CC in pvm raids are boss calms and init debuffs.

Why are people saying you'll obliterate crats if you nerf these things? It's obviously an exaggeration, but perhaps the sentiment comes from the fact that for the most part, you're asking to nerf the only reliable pvm CC we have for raids.

Anyway, you were complaining about how mobs are immune to your debuffs, and I say that's only evidence to the fact that the root of the problem is mob AI.

Ideally, there should be no immunities to any debuffs, there should only be interesting consequences for using debuffs. In an encounter that's meant to be challenging, no debuff should be an 'i-win' button, but every debuff should increase the likelihood of success, and perhaps the best way to facilitate that would be through changing mob reaction to being debuffed, not through immunities and debuff nerfs.

Lastly, I can't help but agree with some of the less articulate posters that some of what you're saying seems to be good old fashioned epeen envy. The ever golden personal defamation attempt. I personally am more worried about the population of AO than my epeen. The minimal team setups, that are only possible because of completely overpowered tools like crat init debuffs, have not been good for the health of the game. Bureaucrats have _always_ been one of the top pvm professions, both soloing and teaming, and many people have chosen to play crats over the years for that very reason. Init debuffs have been ingame a long time, why is it suddenly a huge problem that bureaucrats are good at pvm?

I also like blue.

[Koizumi]

I also like blue.
I also think NT's should get quadruples...can be target=fixer/doc only.
You know...to balance things a bit...

Yes.

[ragerayden]

I also like blue.

Did you just read my post above your or are you too damn blind? I mean I've just posted it two times in this thread.... It would help you not look like some newb doing some forum pve/pvp.
Now answer this is 90% of your toolset resisted/useless in boss encounters?
Let me guess: Josephina: "I also like pink."

[MachSchau]

You guys need to stop including doc LE procs as a determining OP factor. LE procs have a dismal 5% chance to land and probably a 5 second duration (the reason why I dont look it up is because LE procs are bogus), LE procs suck and need their own separate thread.

And Sterva, you fail at providing anything to the discussion other than a crazy idea that would take more time to implement than the engine itself. You fail to acknowledge that your own profession makes PvM easy and state by stripping it of its tool set will not only nerf the profession itself but make pvm/raids impossible. What a stupid statement. l2p.

Up until LoX I had never raided with a crat (about 4 years), even during the op stun proc days. It was always my enf and a doc (not 2 docs, not 3 docs, 1 doc and rarely any backup heals like adv), the raid was challenging, not impossible. When I started getting in to teams with crats, my god was it ridiculously easy, it really dumbed down pvm. I could q/afk at beast, 12 man, apf when a crat was in the team, it made the encounter that easy because of their init debuffing.

The thing with other professions init debuffing is that it comes from a perk or a proc and in rare cases a nano (like ubt that doesn't land on end game encounters/aliens). It is completely random, short duration and provides a small debuff. Crat debuffs land on everything and can last as long as the mob is alive and the crat keeps debuffing, that means 2500 something init constantly debuffed. Throw in any other debuffs and it is just overkill and not even necessary because the init debuffs do the job of 2-3 nano debuffs/professions tool sets.

[MachSchau]

Did you just read my post above your or are you too damn blind? I mean I've just posted it two times in this thread.... It would help you not look like some newb doing some forum pve/pvp.
Now answer this is 90% of your toolset resisted/useless in boss encounters?
Let me guess: Josephina: "I also like pink."

Shut up, no one reads your crap cause no one cares.

[ragerayden]

You guys need to stop including doc LE procs as a determining OP factor. LE procs have a dismal 5% chance to land and probably a 5 second duration (the reason why I dont look it up is because LE procs are bogus), LE procs suck and need their own separate thread.

Wait wait wait.....
I've heard of LE procs somewhere, hmmmmm what was it about...... about something OP......
It involved crats if I remember well... oh well I could be wrong.
Poor little goldfish.....

Stop asking for a nerf ask for a change in nanolines. You tend to forget debuffs are our only working toolset against boss encounters.
Leave the hyperboles/lies/swears aside plz.

[bonkbonk]

Up until LoX I had never raided with a crat (about 4 years), even during the op stun proc days. It was always my enf and a doc (not 2 docs, not 3 docs, 1 doc and rarely any backup heals like adv), the raid was challenging, not impossible. When I started getting in to teams with crats, my god was it ridiculously easy, it really dumbed down pvm. I could q/afk at beast, 12 man, apf when a crat was in the team, it made the encounter that easy because of their init debuffing.

cool story bro. You must be a slow person, needing 2 years to type "qq nerf crats qq".
(note for other whiners, dibs on green, yellow, purple and orange)

[ragerayden]

cool story bro. You must be a slow person, needing 2 years to type "qq nerf crats qq".

That's not the funniest part. He seems to be schizophrenic on procs when it gives him an advantage it's not OP & shouldn't be discussed but when others get an advantage it's definitvely OP.

[bonkbonk]

now youre mean to poor little rubyzero. he just needs a hug to forget about those bastards crats that made enf-less raids possible. good old days, when evade tanks were just a bad dream.

[Josephina]

Did you just read my post above your or are you too damn blind? I mean I've just posted it two times in this thread.... It would help you not look like some newb doing some forum pve/pvp.
Now answer this is 90% of your toolset resisted/useless in boss encounters?
Let me guess: Josephina: "I also like pink."

Well, I'm not really fond of pink myself, but I will use it in this post for your enjoyment.

First off, I did read your post. It speaks about old tools (toolsets) that have become useless in the new encounters, because of imo poor design choices (Imo, they should have nerfed the nanos themselves instead of giving immunity to them. It's the same situation as here, where I am suggesting to nerf the bureaucrat initiative debuffing itself instead of giving immunity against it. It's often weird how times haven't changed and how people are unable to learn from past mistakes even when it is right in their face). Still, no where did I suggest to make endgame encounters completely immune to initiative debuffs or to take away initiative debuffs completely from bureaucrats. I am most interested to find where you read that I was actually suggesting this (a quote of the paragraph/sentence and a link to the post where I said it is enough). What I did say was that I think bureaucrats have too much initiative debuffing and that I would like to see it reduced to the point where it isn't completely overpowered anymore on it's own. I hope that you understand that reducing something is not the same as removing it entirely. Does it make me look like a "newb" that I know the difference between the verbs "to reduce" and "to remove"? I personally don't think so, but I am willing to agree to disagree on this one.


Because I'm afraid that at this point you will still not get that there is in fact a difference between removing and reducing something, I will explain it with a few examples appropriate to this thread:

• Reactive Reflective Field (Extended)
  
  • Reduces incoming damage by 30%.
  • Useless? Most definitely not.
  • Overpowered on it's own? Not in my eyes atleast.
• All permanent bureaucrat initiative debuffing combined: -2531
  
  • Reduces incoming damage by up to 83.64%.
  • Useless? Most definitely not.
  • Overpowered on it's own? Well, I think up to 83% damage reduction by 1 profession is a bit much and I therefore consider it to be overpowered. One way for FC to reduce this percentage -without direct nerfs- is by putting in huge initiatiave thresholds, which would cheapen the initiative debuffing toolsets more of the non-bureaucrat professions, as I have explained in this post already and which I find to be a very undesirable "solution".
• All permanent bureaucrat initiative debuffing combined, but reduced, lets say to -1250
  
  • Reduces incoming damage by up to 67.29%.
  • Useless? Most definitely not.
  • Overpowered on it's own? Well, it depends on the initiative debuff threshold mentioned above. 1250 is sufficiently low, so that initiative debuff thresholds can be implemented that would lower the mitigating power of bureaucrats, while not completely obliterating that of other non-bureaucrat professions.
• All permanent bureaucrat initiative debuffing combined, removed completely: -0
  
  • Reduces incoming damage by up to 00.00%.
  • Useless? Definitely.
  • Overpowered on it's own? Definitely not.

And a final quote of myself about what I would like to see in game:

If it's not completely OP, it suddenly becomes not worth using anymore? Between the black and white of overpowered and useless, there's a whole grey zone where it could be useful while not being overpowerd. In my opinion, that is the area in which the profession's toolsets should be situated.

If you are someone who is convinced as well that something that is at the same time not useless and not overpowered, isn't worth using at all, then I think that is your problem. Is challenging pve really that frightening for some of you?

[XenonDe]

That's not the funniest part. He seems to be schizophrenic on procs when it gives him an advantage it's not OP & shouldn't be discussed but when others get an advantage it's definitvely OP.

The way I read it, crat debuffs shouldn't be compared to the LE procs becuase they work differently and the LE procs are OPed either way and should be removed anyway. Maybe not what he meant, but still true

[Hellrule]

Apparently no one know how proc bugs work.

[bonkbonk]

useless wall of text

docs are reducing incoming damage by 100%. too op. nerf heals so they can reduce incoming damage only by 83.7555583911%. although i believe 78.86288479% is better.

[Hellrule]

docs are reducing incoming damage by 100%. too op. nerf heals so they can reduce incoming damage only by 83.7555583911%. although i believe 78.86288479% is better.

lol'd

[XenonDe]

Apparently no one know how proc bugs work.

Enlighten us. I'm guessing your talking about the breakable nanos sometimes not breaking like the pvp fears or Anatomic blight. Don't think anyone knows how exactly that works besides knowing it only happens when a lot of (nano)effects land at once like in BS or Mass pvp.
It's one more reason debuff procs (and the fear bbug) have to go.

[Hellrule]

It works when there is a zerg of attacks in a short period of time. Its real annoying when you have mobs calmed in a small team and it won't break. With a raid force it never will

[XenonDe]

Yep. The same mechanism of the breakable Nanos not breaking. Real annoying and needs a fix asap. Calms are just another example of this (which also can happens when calmed in pvp, hate that). Luckily it's still a happening rarely, and for some reason it seems to happen more in pvp then pvm. Some syncing problem.

It's not something where I'd say we should rely on or count it in as the odds of it happening are really low.

[ragerayden]

Josephina has brought paper pvp to another realm & has probably already landed on the moon.

[Manicmouse]

bonkbonk did a pretty good job!!