for how loong does funcom think we can play without changes?

[Psikie]

There really isn't anything exceptional here. You have a profession, they have a weapon with a good special for PVP. That weapon is inline with their perks. They still get access to their other tools like nanos and such. This describes almost every profession ingame. Why is that completely unreasonable that pistol users can't be under that umbrella too? It's just double standard BS.

Part of the issue is that support profs up till now have been defined in pvp by there nanos, perks, procs, which are there toolsets. They had other means of competing in pvp other than being weapon heavy. One example doctors. DoT's and perks along with UBT eventually got the better of you. Now instead of outlasting and wearing you down, they now have alpha capability that is supported by their support toolset as well. UBT, DoTx3, Perk-Perk-Perk, Malp, AS. Doctors should not be able to alpha you AND be unkillable unless you get lucky stuns.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I don't think that is different than before TRO-era. Professions had insanely power AS weapons before the TRO existed ... better if my memory serves me correctly.

good in what way?

Like, good in that they had to dedicate every single slot available to AS in order to get recharge down to something reasonable?

Or, good because they could get 30 hits per minute with an AR of 2300?

Or good because they could get flingshot as well as aimed shot?

Compare that to Troaler setups:

Not every single slot needs to be dedicated to AS
36 normals per minute at an AR of 2800
10 fling shots per minute AND 6 bursts
Resulting in about 50% more chancs for procs which on any proc lasting less than 30 seconds makes an enormous difference
AND 1 retardedly OP perk checking at 80%


So, you see, it isn't just that the weapon itself is OP, it's that the weapon in conjunction with a fully supported toolset and perks and procs that sends it off the deep end.

The difference here isn't the weapon itself, it's access to perks and there is nothing unreasonable about getting offensive perks in PVP.

The weapon itself, the access to perks FOR that weapon, increasing the AR, increasing the number of chances to hit per minute with the best AR available, having OP proc choices (doc's particularly), and that the weapon itself has no drawbacks.

Not sure what peripheral toolset you are referring to that is bolstered by using Tro pistol. I can't honestly think of anyway the Tro bolsters any particular toolset these profesions have.

1. AAO
2. AAD
3. nano init
4. pistol AR

No more so than any other typical PVP weapon bolsters the toolsets of the professions that use them.

Onehander mods:

Chemical AC 30
Radiation AC 30
Trap disarm 30

shotgun AR....

Ya, those are really going to make that fixer OP.

Hand Crafted Union Arbalest mods:

Cold AC 300
Perception 20
Concealment 10

Rifle bow split AR...

Ofab Tiger Mods:

Nothing
Bow AR...

Again, all of these alternate choices have serious drawbacks:
1. less specials
2. modifiers
3. poorer damage range
4. less range
5. less hits per minute
6. LESS AR.
7. non dual weildable

The only problem I have with pistol users in PVP is the 80% checks on the perks. It's not logical OR practical. Not even sure if it's effective for most of those professions anyways.

Agree.

There really isn't anything exceptional here. You have a profession, they have a weapon with a good special for PVP. That weapon is inline with their perks. They still get access to their other tools like nanos and such. This describes almost every profession ingame. Why is that completely unreasonable that pistol users can't be under that umbrella too? It's just double standard BS.

Why doesn't my 2he sword have AS and SA on it?

I need specials in PVP too!

Why doesn't ME have a perk line?

I need perks too!

Why doesn't Grenade have Full auto and AS and dimach?

I want specials too!

It's a horrible double standard, maybe next, they'll take off the -2000 full auto buff and make it +2000 next, and add full auto on the Peh'wer.

I mean, thats the direction we're going... and it's not like ranged advies do a lot of damage in PVM right?

Umbrella my ass.

Ohya, How about MA's? Fist has all of 1 special available in a normal fight.

[Obtena]

I made my case ... bottom line is that people deserve weapons in PVP supported by their toolsets, including pistol users or any other poorly supported weaponline for that matter. Arguing walls of text line by line with you isn't going to happen with me. My points rise above whatever detail you want to raise on Arbalest weapon stats or pontificating why your 2HE doesn't have SA. Removing AS pistol does not address why almost everyone wants AS in their PVP arsenal.

[Psikie]

bottom line is that people deserve weapons in PVP supported by their toolsets, including pistol users or any other poorly supported weaponline for that matter.

Removing AS pistol does not address why almost everyone wants AS in their PVP arsenal.

People have been pvp'n in this game for 12yrs with weapons supported by their toolsets. Just because some profs had better weapons is not a reason to open the floodgates.

Giving such free reign access to AS only compounds the pvp problem like an arms race. Now everyone has and uses AS, and you think that brings balance? It does the opposite and it makes formerly defensive pvp profs are now offensive with their defensive toolsets. So the next step to bring "balance" will be to open up more combat healing or some form of blockers/layers to all profs.

Where does it stop? When all profs blur the lines of each other?

Prime example is before SL, caterwauls were deemed so powerfull pvp AS weapons that even enfo's were using them. Wisdom prevailed in that instance and they were made agent only weapon. Something similar should happen to the pistol. PVP should not be degraded to trying to crit cap AS and kite around till it recharges. WTF does that have to do with anyone's toolset? This weapon has reduced AO pvp to everyone is a fp agent with higher nano skills. No strategy no skill. Crit scope, MoP, GSF...

[Obtena]

People have been pvp'n in this game for 12yrs with weapons supported by their toolsets.

Pistol users have not.

Now everyone has and uses AS, and you think that brings balance?

No, but removing AS pistol doesn't fix that problem.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Pistol users have not.



No, but removing AS pistol doesn't fix that problem.

hah.

wrong.

See signature for more detail.

[Psikie]

Pistol users have not.

You dont think doctors and engi's have been in tower pvp? Pre-SL???

[Otansaanpas]

You dont think doctors and engi's have been in tower pvp? Pre-SL???

i remember docs using bows more than pistols.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

i remember docs using bows more than pistols.

exactly.

and people weren't dying left right and centre to docs becuase the chances for procs were about 5x less.

It's only since PVPing docs started using pistols that docs have become an offensive prof.

Who knew?

With all that defence, arguably the best in game, they are offensive! Sheesh. Sort of like advies... in a way.

[Otansaanpas]

so, using bows and AS without any perk or research support is considered a pistol doctors toolset.

[Obtena]

You dont think doctors and engi's have been in tower pvp? Pre-SL???

Sure they were, but not using weapons supported by their perks, etc... On the other hand, I'm willing to bet they were getting the most from AS, even without the existence of a good AS pistol.

[Psikie]

Sure they were, but not using weapons supported by their perks, etc... On the other hand, I'm willing to bet they were getting the most from AS, even without the existence of a good AS pistol.

Well pre-sl there were no perks...but beside that I am quite sure engi's and docs were using pistols anyway.

[Obtena]

Maybe some were .... like you said, prior to SL, FC wasn't directing professions towards specific weapons. Therefore the need to have appropriate PVP weapons for a specific line isn't as necessary as it is now that FC does direct professions towards specific weaponlines.

Of course, I can tell you that some Doctors were definitely using AS from caterwaul ... a testament to how good AS was EVEN back then (or how crap those pistol options were). Nothing really has changed here. AS is still as good as it was (or better) and people will still go to great lengths to get it, even if they don't have access to supported PVP weapons that have AS. Removing supported weapons that have AS is not a fix to addressing the awesomeness of AS in PVP and people will continue to compromise their setups to get it while other professions bask in the privilege of supported PVP weapons.

[sannz]

Well pre-sl there were no perks...but beside that I am quite sure engi's and docs were using pistols anyway.

No. Just plain no. Everyone was using Caterwauls.

[Psikie]

No. Just plain no. Everyone was using Caterwauls.

It's blanket statements like this that just blows any amount of respect/credibility from someone's posts.

First you can't possibly know EVERYONE that's ever played AO.

Second not EVERYONE uses AS.

Third not EVERYONE is that into pvp.

Fourth not EVERYONE had a caterwaul.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

so, using bows and AS without any perk or research support is considered a pistol doctors toolset.

It doesn't matter if it is or isn't. The pistol doctor's toolset was relatively well balanced for pistols in PVP prior to pistol perks and the troaler dropping into a doctor's lap.

The reason for this is that pistols DIDN'T have AS, and regular damage/specials had a solid chance of missing, thus lowering proc chances etc.

Now, however, with reasonable pistol AR, and a bevy of specials and reliably good AS's, you got doctors loading up on OP procs that were never designed to be getting so much action.

Engineers with OP pets and OP weapons.

Crats with a insanely powerful debuff toolset, huge evades, and excellent nuking capability, ALSO with excellent weapons...

Advies, don't even get me started.

The point is that all of these profs were designed to be used without AS in a pistol where it would be both supported by other specials and solid AR and solid regulars. Now, you add it all up and it's a just, as Psikie said: an arms race.

Sure they were, but not using weapons supported by their perks, etc... On the other hand, I'm willing to bet they were getting the most from AS, even without the existence of a good AS pistol.

They sure were. They were getting a heck of a lot from their AS. But thats all they were getting. How many doctors/whoever, were hitting 1k regulars as well as capping AS's? how many were hitting 50+ opportunities to hit/minute just from equipping two pistols? See, the problem isn't AS. AS has existed forever in game. It only became OP'd with the arrival of weapons with AR/perk support.

[Obtena]

They were getting a heck of a lot from their AS. But thats all they were getting. How many doctors/whoever, were hitting 1k regulars as well as capping AS's? how many were hitting 50+ opportunities to hit/minute just from equipping two pistols? See, the problem isn't AS. AS has existed forever in game. It only became OP'd with the arrival of weapons with AR/perk support.

I don't actually think that's true but I don't think it's a relevant comparison away. Your talking about PVP in 2004. This is 2013. There is NO justification for nerfing AS pistol based on some relic or historical reference. It's no more OPed for a pistol using profession to have access to an AS pistol with supported perks than it is for a rifle-using professions to have access to an AS rifle with supported perks ... or a shotgun-using professions to have access to an AS shotgun with supported perks. If other professions didn't have the ability to land regulars and capped AS, you might actually have a point here. The fact that it's a weapons with AR/perk support makes it ON PAR with weapon sets of other professions.

[Wyoming]

AS is still as good as it was (or better)

Caterwaul nerf came alongside PvP caps.
Basically, AS was nerfed too. Yeah, it used to be more powerful.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

The fact that it's a weapons with AR/perk support makes it ON PAR with weapon sets of other professions.

On par?

So, the troaler is on par with:

Doctor right hand of hope?
AMEP?

It must be on "PAR" because I see "equal" numbers of PVP engies using AMEP as troaler. It really must be on PAR with doctor's right hand of hope, because I see "equal" numbers of PVP doctors using that weapon as troaler.

[Psikie]

The fact that it's a weapons with AR/perk support makes it ON PAR with weapon sets of other professions.

Honestly I thought silverback was a bad idea. I also thought tigress was bad idea. Although I can see why they exist. Neither of those profs have much pvp kill power even at 220.

The Tro pistol has made endgame pvp in AO = A-imedshot O-nly. That really sucks, no more strategy or skill, just twink on scope and HD.