Enfs and Attack rating

[Obtena]

@ Obtena : ofc not all enfos are "top geared" but Ownsauce prooved that a real balancing needed to take account of "top geared" setups

He did no such thing. He took one setup, showed it could achieve a certain level of stats and concluded that enfos need a nerf from it. That's laughable logic and I can assure you, based on what I'm seeing from FC, that's NOT how they have approached the balancing. I can pretty much do that for any prof I want and making claims they are OPed as well. Of course, that would be nonsense, but that doesn't seem to matter to people. People swallow nonsense up because it makes them warm and fuzzy inside.

[bitnykk]

That's laughable logic

that's the only applyable logic, i assure you. what else ?

you'd like to take the worse setups down there to compare professions ? naked 212/8/3 toons with IP in swimming and perked on explorer & training seminar ?
c'mon that wouldn't make sense

so may be you'd like to get the average setups ? how to statistically make this fair ? what standard ? browse all profession toons to have the frequent choices for each slots in every tab & points in every skills ? would take years to extract and balance from that tremendous chunk of datas ...
so please let's be realistic :

the only real way to balance this game (in a reasonnable time & method) is to consider the top possible setups at, e.g., level 50, 150 and 220 for each profession and tweak the elements (nanos/perks) as fair as possible, implement to see tester's reactions and tweak some more.
and even this way it will take monthes.

ps : and also, don't forget this rebalance isn't the ultimate ; IF the game lives on there will always be possibility for adjustements later on ... we're playing Anarchy Online after all

[Notcrattey]

3255 def really seems like over 3200 def

Wit isn't profession specific. If you really wanted to include breed perks why didn't you include the 1500 AAO from mongo rage?

And of course... not to mention that's only dodge defense.

[Moonbolt]

ok do the stats on a fixer with AR / def then bitnykk u will get alot more scewed stats from that setup.
im not even bothered to do it but i guess it looks something like.

3300 AR and around 7000 def when everything is up.
and that is AR not dependant on some random procs and at the same time its with temporary buffs as the math was done with in enforcer case.

ur reasoning is flaved if u think that u can get a good weiv of what the profession can do by some stats.

second of all the enf in that setup wouldnt be able to self cast top Mongo and other important buffs.

third of all that setup would have no mongo rage so that enf wouldnt be able to even scratch ur fixer while u still would be able to both perk and cap FA and AS on that enf.

fourth of all the enf in that setup would lack 500 NR from no HHaB and would have an NR of around 2700 NR with rage up.

[Obtena]

that's the only applyable logic, i assure you. what else ?

Sorry, jsut because you SAY it's the only logic that applicable doesn't mean it's true. That's academic anyways. That's simply NOT how FC is balancing stuff at the moment. You can either argue with me, or open our eyes to see what's happening around you with the perks, nano releases, etc....

[Obtena]

Wit isn't profession specific. If you really wanted to include breed perks why didn't you include the 1500 AAO from mongo rage?

And of course... not to mention that's only dodge defense.

You forgot towers, crat and keeper buffs and all that fun stuff to . Hell, I can make any profession look OPed if I try hard enough. Throw in DB and 12 man buffs, it's endless. Have we missed anything? Damn, better nerf everyone.

[sultryvoltron]

And of course... not to mention that's only dodge defense.

Just gonna throw this out there, but how many profs are ranged?

Advy, Agent, Crat, Doc, Engi, Fixer, Soldier, Trader.

Melee ones?

Very few Advys, Enfs, Keepers (rarely see em), MAs (rarely see them), Shades.

Dodge seems to be a bit more important, at least in my eyes.



That said, that's not an entirely realistic setup above. It really goes to show that there is simply too much AAD available in this game and not enough AAO.

[Obtena]

It's not realistic at all unless you only duel non-casting professions. Only an eccentric would trade HHAB for an anything else in a general PVP BS/Towers setup, on top the fact that that poster though it was relevant include temporary, random chance procs and breed specific perks in his analysis of enfo OPedness.

[Gatester]

-Heal recharge is the SAME (8s)

Soul of Rubi, Recharge 11.23 seconds...I wanted to stop there but

-More healing power at the expense of a truly insane and ridiculous nanocost so use that heal and say bye to your nanopool.

The top team heal now has low reqs and heals better than Matrix of Ka currently does for less nano cost than Matrix of Ka is now.

Not to mention that reducing the 3-4.5 second cast times on heals to 2 seconds might make init debuffs a lot less crippling for MA's.

That is when I stopped reading.

http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=162116

Theres the setup

Nice setup, can I post an NR8 soldier that uses AMS V now that also easily activates its LE-procs?

@ Obtena : ofc not all enfos are "top geared" but Ownsauce prooved that a real balancing needed to take account of "top geared" setups .

No one would use that setup because it is not top geared (among several other failings that would cause a soldier to post it). Or is casting your nanos not a requisite for being end-game anymore?

[bitnykk]

is casting your nanos not a requisite for being end-game anymore?

there are a lot of combinations between slots/perks & all, so that depends on priorities you put up on the stack : i think here Ownsauce wanted to prioritize AR, then Def, despite nanoskill static state of this setup, just to see how high that could go. but i won't speak for him, that's how i read.
That'd be me i'd at least consider one of alb's IANE + what's needed in CoNC under the blue HUD3 swap to cast Hrage & see how the rest is behaving in combat. anyway that's all theorical, outta OSB, skill state, org city & towers, etc.

but even not 100% pragmatic, these theorical setups are usefull to check how high each professions *could* go (@ each levels range) in the different elements involved during fights (AR, defs, NR, DD, procs, etc). i honestly don't see any other way to compare : if you don't take the highest stats reachable in consideration you'll soon end up with unbalancement again. as true as you can't balance one top-geared VS one gimped, the best seems to compare 2 of highest setups, balance them and hope another 2 gimper setups of same profs will behave accordingly

as all devs can't be 100% specialist of every 14 profession at every title (why they "hired" pros for, why they plan testing & feedback before final balance ...) that's the only way to compare comparable things as i stated a little upper and propose first steps. if you got another conception of this all, i'm curious to hear about.

[Weltall]

Soul of Rubi, Recharge 11.23 seconds...I wanted to stop there but

The top team heal now has low reqs and heals better than Matrix of Ka currently does for less nano cost than Matrix of Ka is now.

Not to mention that reducing the 3-4.5 second cast times on heals to 2 seconds might make init debuffs a lot less crippling for MA's.

That is when I stopped reading.

Who uses SoR? That's right, gimp toons that haven't done apf, for everyone else heal recharge is 8s.

But yeah, as I said, the only real nice thing is the team heal, so it's not 'oh MAs got such a great boost' to MAs as you all are claiming.

[Notcrattey]

Just gonna throw this out there, but how many profs are ranged?

This really is irrelevant, all defenses are important in a pvp environment.

[sultryvoltron]

Soul of Rubi, Recharge 11.23 seconds...I wanted to stop there but

Lol.

This really is irrelevant, all defenses are important in a pvp environment.

Purely hypothetical, but if you had to choose which one would you take?

I would choose Dodge (especially as a Ranged toon as I can kite melee).

[Notcrattey]

Lol.

Purely hypothetical, but if you had to choose which one would you take?

I would choose Dodge (especially as a Ranged toon as I can kite melee).

Evade, most devastating alphas; and I don't have CC tools apart from stun and grafts.

Taking a PM perk line from shade = not very fun.

[Kinkstaah]

I'd also take evade, because lets face it, evades are for dodging perks, currently.

Being able to dodge melee perks means the classes can do 0 damage to you, as opposed to dodging ranged perks which still allow ranged professions to do some kind of damage.

Because reducing opponents (specifically enfs!) to 0 damage and being immortal is what having evades is all about.

[Ownsauce]

Nice setup, can I post an NR8 soldier that uses AMS V now that also easily activates its LE-procs?

No one would use that setup because it is not top geared (among several other failings that would cause a soldier to post it). Or is casting your nanos not a requisite for being end-game anymore?

I respect you as a twinker and a player of AO Gate, but I will say a couple of things:

1.) If you can find a setup that will make a soldier in NR 8 be able to AMS V now, I will never post another thing on forums.

2.) As far as using that setup, You don't honestly think I came up with that setup do you? I got it from a top end enfo who pwns my shade all the time. I can't even perk that guy. Granted, a few of the perks are out of spot because I was making a point that certain things are achievable but that's really what I was doing.

3.) for casting in that setup, It would be as easy as R clicking the insta swap nano LE hud. You can even put it in your hot bar it's really not that hard. If you can't do that then don't ever play a shade because I do that all day for swapping spirits+research huds. Just because you prefer to be able to cast it without swapping it, doesn't mean that my setup is wrong, just like it doesn't mean that your setup is wrong.

As far as Obtena, I have no respect for your ignorance. You simply refuse to look at my setups because I have proved you wrong, but no, go sit in your high and mighty chair of being a professional and reject reality. Realistically, the majority of PVP enfos are in that setup or in a similar setup. Yes, not all enforcers are in that one, but the high end ones who don't suck like you and moon are. The things you're trying to argue is that enfos who haven't invested any time into their toons aren't as good as other profs and people who have spend a heck of a lot of time into them. Any toon who hasn't had any time or money invest in them can't be uber or OP. A professions professional does not mean all knowing. L2 Enf

And for the last time, all the people who say you won't resist anything. Use some of your brain and think how easy it would be to just put HHAB on. You would have close to 2500 NR with it on at the cost of 15 AAO and 20 AAD which I've proven that you can stand to lose.

[Moonbolt]

I respect you as a twinker and a player of AO Gate, but I will say a couple of things:

1.) If you can find a setup that will make a soldier in NR 8 be able to AMS V now, I will never post another thing on forums.

ermm first im pretty sure Gate was ironic. maybe u dont get that, cause that setup u posted is as likely to happen.

2.) As far as using that setup, You don't honestly think I came up with that setup do you? I got it from a top end enfo who pwns my shade all the time. I can't even perk that guy. Granted, a few of the perks are out of spot because I was making a point that certain things are achievable but that's really what I was doing.

i pwn shades in my MR setup aswell.. but they sure as hell can perk me and u sure as hell should be able to perk anything that has 3200 def aswell with a shade.

3.) for casting in that setup, It would be as easy as R clicking the insta swap nano LE hud. You can even put it in your hot bar it's really not that hard. If you can't do that then don't ever play a shade because I do that all day for swapping spirits+research huds. Just because you prefer to be able to cast it without swapping it, doesn't mean that my setup is wrong, just like it doesn't mean that your setup is wrong.

first of all u cant equip the def hud and nano hud by right klicking them since that will try to update the QL of them not equip them.

As far as Obtena, I have no respect for your ignorance. You simply refuse to look at my setups because I have proved you wrong, but no, go sit in your high and mighty chair of being a professional and reject reality. Realistically, the majority of PVP enfos are in that setup or in a similar setup. Yes, not all enforcers are in that one, but the high end ones who don't suck like you and moon are. The things you're trying to argue is that enfos who haven't invested any time into their toons aren't as good as other profs and people who have spend a heck of a lot of time into them. Any toon who hasn't had any time or money invest in them can't be uber or OP. A professions professional does not mean all knowing. L2 Enf

and yes my setup is similar but i have chosen to go MR instead cause i found it more effectiev in most cases. cause having highway and wit didnt let me get unperkable for short times even.
it didnt even let me get non capped FAs by soldiers.

And for the last time, all the people who say you won't resist anything. Use some of your brain and think how easy it would be to just put HHAB on. You would have close to 2500 NR with it on at the cost of 15 AAO and 20 AAD which I've proven that you can stand to lose.

u havnt proven a single damn thing.
ive tried that setup basically and i didnt like it cause it sucked.¨
coudlnt even tickle advs. could even touch greeen fixers. didnt have a chance vs good crats.
sheild MPs owned me. shades still pwnd me.

that an enf pwns ur shade in that setup says more about ur shade then it does about enfs.

[Ownsauce]

1.) the LE research huds only try to update if they aren't already fully upgraded. I do this all the time, I know this to be right.

2.) you Clearly know nothing about shades, so don't even go talking about my shade. Shade's have ar problems, and yes, I can perk enfs, but in order to do so I have to do a fair bit of hotswapping and losing roughly 500 evades in the process, which in turn, causes enfos to be able to alpha me.

3.) I think your inability to make this setup work shows your ignorance as an enfo. Kink already said he uses this setup and you've praised him to be a damn good pvp enfo (and he's soli so no, he doesn't MR). Perhaps you should learn your prof and stop whining.

[Moonbolt]

1. ermmm then something is wrong with my LE huds on all 3 of my toons cause they try to update even when max upgraded.

2. i got a 219 shade so i think i know enough about shades. i know that u have to be in an AR setup to perk enfs, i also know that if u pop out of stealth already in an Ar setup u can more or less alpha the enfs right away.

3. i never said tht the setup doesnt work. i said i idnt like it cause i couldnt perk any kind of evaders with the setup.
and yeh kink cant perk any kind of evaders since he isnt trox.
kink usually prefers to pvp on his agent aswell. in his own words he thinks that agent is a stronger overal pvp toon then enf.
and i myself for one think that my inferior equipped trader is better to pvp on as it is.

[Shrubberyman]

2. i got a 219 shade so i think i know enough about shades. i know that u have to be in an AR setup to perk enfs, i also know that if u pop out of stealth already in an Ar setup u can more or less alpha the enfs right away.

I so far avoided to take position in this pillow fight, but this... sounds horribly wrong.

On a severely pimped out endgame evade setup NT, I need to actually debuff a shade one way or another (dwl, blind, or both) to get a chance not to be perkable.
And you're telling us an endgame shade in middle ground or evade setup would actually see his/her perks countered vs an enfo not even debuffed? That shades need to be in a AR setup to perk enforcers?

As far as I'm concerned, if it's true, it's more than enough to justify the swift defence nerf for enforcers (even though this is gonna hurt my beloved twink in the making).

Edit : to soften my statement somewhat, it's gotta be said shades are gonna get some AR love, if only through the access to token boards and other ****znit which will lose the Not Shade tag.