General questions about new nanos...

[kuznechik]

Well, I've looked at new nanos and it made me all puzzled.
Sometimes I even got a feeling that man who designed it never played AO. I'm not commenting about usefullness or uselessness. No, it's all about reqs. Yes, reqs are high. In case if nano with high reqs is way better than previous nano in that line - it's even understandable. But... Let me explain.
There is combat nanos and buff nanos in AO. Buff nanos are casted with lots of gear swapping and temp-nanoskill buffing (wrangle, mochams, arith, phulacs, relay, NCU, etc). Combat nanos are supposed to be cast in dense fight, in combat gear, possibly - with some mild debuff in your NCU.
Now look at fixer nanos. SWS11 that have 6 hours duration and didn't deleted when you zone to BS have exactly same reqs as 3-min duration short hot you need to recast in combat. So speaking combat vs buff nano differences - hot have actually {100 (phulac)+140(CMo)+131(wrangle)+64(fixer hud2 thing)+some arith maybe} more nanoskill reqs. And fixer ain't exactly nanoskill profession, dark-blue nanoskills and not really cheap ones.
Also look at shades HP drain. Shades are definitely not nano-prof. So their in-combat nanoskills are estimated around 1000-1200 if they aren't going NR route. And 1600+ reqs to cast it means absolutely no chance for them to reach these numbers, even if they team with trader and mp - they'll be lacking some 100+ nanoskills.

Also there are nanoskill oriented professions, nanoskill-gimp professions and middle ground.
For nano-oriented profs there are NTs, docs, MPs, partly crats and traders (check nano doctorate perk to see who's the nano-profs).
Combat ones are shade, keeper, MAs.
Other profs are "middle ground".

I can understand 2.2k+ reqs for nano-heavy professions for their combat nanos, even more for buffs.
Middle ground can handle 1.5-2k buffs and 1.3-1.7k combat nanos.
Non-nano-heavy profs can prolly handle 1.3-1.5k buffs and 1-1.2k combat nanos.

Now look at nanos MP/NT/crat got and rejoice.
MPs got 2.1k reqs buff for nanoskills/int/psy and 2.2k pre-combat buffs with long duration. Actually - they can cast it w/o any swaps in combat mode.
NTs got 1540!!!! nanoskills requirements on their nanos! It's 100 points less than reqs on shade in-combat nano!!! I guess they still be able to stay NR1 or even NR2 in case they twink hard.
Crats got 1469/1633 reqs. Same, castable with current gear w/o swapping.
Trader' combat debuff is 1800 reqs, sounds about right, well, leaving apart it's usefulness.
docs have 2.0-2.2k reqs on nanos and it's only prof from high-nanoskills ones who got their reqs right (as I was told by few docs - it's either enough skills to cast or lacking 20-40, that's what can be adapted).

Looking at low end.
Shades. Biggest lol award goes there. Buffs are ok, 1.4/1.2k can be archieved in "buff mode". But 1.6k reqs on in-combat mode is obviously typo.
Keepers. Abil buff nano is ok, even can be called "easy". But somehow I doubt keepers can reach 1800+ reqs even in full arith+phulac+CMo. Iirc - they are like 200-300 points short.
MAs. Buffs are ok, well, ignoring the fact 1 of skills isn't used for anything else.
But heal... Well, heals are supposed to be casted in thick combat, so with 1843 reqs I guess MAs can ask mobs nicely to wait till MA swap to full arith to cast team heal and run to Borealis to get trader buff.

Middle ground is different.
Engies (not casting prof tbh) got 2246 reqs in 3 skills (green, but engies are already having troubles with 2046 reqs for chicken in buff mode, and troubles means that full arith can be not enough in non-full-nanoskills perk/symb setup)
Fixers and their HoT reqs don't make sense either.

Please look at these nanos and change it. As it is it's ridiculous (and I'm not even touching ridiculousness of what some of nanos do)

[Harios]

I can assure you that the creator of these nano's plays AO .

The nano's have a very high req.
But with all the uber items ingame, it sure is possible to cast them.
It seems that it is just the way these nano's are intended.

[kuznechik]

So, are you saying we'll see fixers/shades/MAs in arith now?

Thing is - new nanos have lower reqs than existing ones for casting professions, thus allowing them to go NR1/maybe NR2, but for combat oriented professions - it's suddenly +100 - +400 reqs over what they already have. I understand barring NR setups if you want new nano. I understand some swapping intended for casting long buffs. I don't understand requirements of CMo+CoNC+full arith+3rd nano attunement+sometimes wrangle to cast in-combat nanos. Shades/MAs/fixers will be so useful in arithmetics, they basicly kill their opponents by only looks.

1533 for new mongo is "hard and will require some adaptation" for enfos? That's right? Nice! Now please slap 200 more nanoskill reqs on it and let us see if it still be "possible to cast". That's just to compare it to fixers with 1894 MM reqs on their 3min hot and 160 better base skill than enfos.
And I don't even touch shades and their drain here.
Again - NTs are basicly can cast their new nanos naked and with ql200 imps. Well, since NTs are more nano-oriented profession than enfos they have their nano requiring 7 more nanoskills than enfos.

Again: With all new uber items ingame you can expect players to cast better buffs if they are able to swap armor/weapons (luxury not available to every breed/prof/setup), while nano-casting professions can be expected to have higher nanoskills in combat.
Expecting combat professions to wear nano-enhancing gear in combat instead of combat-boosting ones is same as putting "need to have 500 add melee damage" reqs on NT nanos

[howlin]

I can assure you that the creator of these nano's plays AO .

The nano's have a very high req.
But with all the uber items ingame, it sure is possible to cast them.
It seems that it is just the way these nano's are intended.

So basicly you are saying shades need to slap on some arithmetic armor on, get CM and use phulaks when going to BS? And than sneak arround in new shiny arithmetic armor while trying to perk somethin?
Yeah the loss of CC/CM AR is not so big with new +60 piercing buff.

[kuznechik]

1 more thing:
I find it ridiculous that to cast engineer buffs engi need to be 220/perked for nanoskills/300 symbs/full arith/relay/NCU, while NTs can cast these nanos at 201 with 200- symbs/deck/no research/no perks in conc, well, there is 215- lock on these nanos, so NTs won't cast it on 201.

It ends up like:
1. Some profs need full arith/db chest/gloves/relay/conc/nano attunement3/300 symbs/full research.
2. Some profs need to add 1-2 things and perk CoNC for it.
3. Some profs are just r-click nano to upload and cast it.

I leave aside issues with some nanos' usefulness.
I leave aside issues with some nanos using skills not required for professions (I will laugh if new SL behe/mongo will require t&s, but that'll be sad laugh)
I'm not touching subject that for some professions (aka support) there is need to go with eye/rhand implants due to fact that they don't have access to infa/arti symbs with weaponskills essential for them included. Surprisingly enough - Infa/Arti symbs have all nanoskills in all places.
I'm only centered on nano requirements vs nanoskills available for professions.

[Reziukas]

Bump for reworked reqs. It seems that only docs have reasonable and logical reqs on new nanos,

[Harios]

I'm not saying that the sacrifices you have to make atm are fair.
I'm just pointing out that it's intended that you have to make a sacrifice.

[Koizumi]

Well, since NTs are more nano-oriented profession than enfos they have their nano requiring 7 more nanoskills than enfos.

Again: With all new uber items ingame you can expect players to cast better buffs if they are able to swap armor/weapons (luxury not available to every breed/prof/setup), while nano-casting professions can be expected to have higher nanoskills in combat.
Expecting combat professions to wear nano-enhancing gear in combat instead of combat-boosting ones is same as putting "need to have 500 add melee damage" reqs on NT nanos

Thats a fscking joke lol...
Just as u said: You see Beast. It died due to lol&roflmao that was caused by ma entering the zone in full arith.

Again - NTs are basicly can cast their new nanos naked and with ql200 imps.

U have GOT to be kidding....

I'm not saying that the sacrifices you have to make atm are fair.
I'm just pointing out that it's intended that you have to make a sacrifice.

Than what the hell is fc thinking? That ma's will start getting +nanodamage buff nanos and start killing enemies in bs using THIS??
Thats like changing the prupose of <most> professions...
I have a vision of ao in the future:
Ma will become nukers, enfos will start healing adv's that will starting tomorrow have a chicken(2089psychology/1933 map navi to cast)...Crats will become best healers in game and shades will start tsing...

[kuznechik]

Docs have some sacrifices (and inability to go NR1).
Enfs have sacrifices (hard ones, but still).

NTs have to sacrifice 1 hud/utils slot and some place on shortcut bars.
Same goes for crats.

And full comb-scout shades have not much to sacrifice, really.

>Again - NTs are basicly can cast their new nanos naked and with ql200 imps.
U have GOT to be kidding....

Hey, I didn't say it'll be easy, they will still need to max skills and perk nano doctorate/find MP for CMo/maybe get some +nanoskills hud/utils thingie... Maybe even wrangle. To cast it on 201 being naked (no armor) and w/o conc.

[Koizumi]

Hey, I didn't say it'll be easy, they will still need to max skills and perk nano doctorate/find MP for CMo/maybe get some +nanoskills hud/utils thingie... Maybe even wrangle. To cast it on 201 being naked (no armor) and w/o conc.

Its good im @ work, otherwise id throw my keyboard @ the wall, and get a beer.
And to think i wanted to buy a new vehi/board and renew my subscription in dec...
Looks like my froob agent will finally get some attention
Unless ofcourse FC decides to giev us a STRONG reason behind all that idiotic ideas that some imbecile wrote..

[Ecelon]

where are the whines from le launch when every new weapon needs 200 more skills then befor?


Hm let's guess:

Because with le everyone got ~150 more weapon skills? No can't be their are also around 100 more nano skills from le.


Because ai armor gives so much weapon skills that everybody had enough skills? hm can't be ai armor and equipment is posible to achive more nano skills than weapon skills.


Btw nano casting profs i think are in fcs eyes the ones who are able to equip: http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=253193.

NTs have to skill two skills (MM ,BM) more then 500 more needed then befor with the new nanos, the scaling there is even worse than on other profs, ok they have green nano skills and in the rest of the skills there isn't a need of further skills by the new nanos, but wait NTs already got their nano skill requierment increased by LE start and that was about 200 points (most nts had to change their equip there and go further to nano skills).

BTW look what sees nanos are really up to:

Theses nanos push the players to do final equiping and leveling (stop at ai 23 without concrete downside won't be posible). QL 300 symb sets are posible for every symb prof (on shades i make a coment below), and it is finaly needed this set. The other thing is, it will put back life into nw, cause tower sides really making life easier, and not just giving a few points def or off that nearly unnoticible cause you are already over mbs or in the range where skills are nerfed in effect, there will be a real concrete effect if you have a tower side. And last it will stop this NR nonsense, that everyone goes nr without suffering any downsides. So I think there are massive pros for the high requirements on the new nanos, that they aren't worth it on some profs is anouther point, but the requirement increase is good.


Final word on the shade nanos: With 250 nanoskill spirits conc 10 com relay and nanoskill research (shades don't do very much hits in pvp, it's more perk perk perk special special enemy down or you are down, so the crit isn't really needed) city boni it is posible to cast this nano even infight without any nano skill armor.
BUT shades and nanos in fight?????
Are you crazy???? Make it a proc thats more shade like and shades will be happy.

[Bummel]

New nano's are clearly made to be a sacrifice to most professions. Fc most likely wants some diversity within each profession. So no clone MA's in ofab pants and rest cc with 2 shen sticks, but a arithmetic/scout flavoured MA here and there chasing a MP with "CM plz" macro's...

Altho im not really happy with the nano req's for some professions (got many alts) but atleast one has to figure out how to cast them new nanos or pretend they not there and just do it as before.

Comments like "Lower nano req's please cause i can't cast them in NR1/2" are most likely from the pvp community, with a sense of irony at least.
I know people that pvm won't have to sacrifice as much as the pvp ones so atleast some justice there since forced pvm people to do BS for their vp's can use better nanos inside. In theory...

[tehacidbaron]

I can assure you that the creator of these nano's plays AO .

I bet he has a TS monkey alt, seeing the PoS we have been getting lately.

[Silirrion]

Unless ofcourse FC decides to giev us a STRONG reason behind all that idiotic ideas that some imbecile wrote..

Oh we do, but you know accusing the designers of idiotic ideas and being imbeciles is not the way to get it discussed at any length. There is never a problem with constructive criticism but personal insults and flames like that are totally out of order. I can assure you that the people who made these items understand the game far better, in more depth and with greater experience then the vast majority of you who are so quick to flame them.

Sorry for sounding harsh, but personal attacks of that type are never acceptable in that way. The designers work hard to provide you with new content, and you arent always going to agree with all aspects of it. (heh, even the designers and I don't always agree, even before you throw the tens of thousands of player opinions into the mix ) but that is not ever an excuse for not showing the designers respect for the work they do.

Insulting the very people who would be responsible for making any changes is hardly a sensible way to get what your opinion heard now is it?

[djedj1]

Insulting the very people who would be responsible for making any changes is hardly a sensible way to get what your opinion heard now is it?

at least it helps cooling down the frustration;p

[Berserkmc]

My constructive criticism about agent's nanos is here. We have our req for most of our SL nanos and these new nanos compared and even high(True Prof), than NT(casting prof, huge boost to nanoskills).

And about sacrifices - we already should sacrifice any HUD item for just ability to use new nanos, for some peoples it's already hard, both PvP and PvM oriented. There already too much HUD/UTIL's items, and almost no options for some professions/setups btw, and now they add one more thing to HUD. It's time to add 4th page(call it gadgets or so) to equip table of characters.

[Villagebike]

I'm not saying that the sacrifices you have to make atm are fair.
I'm just pointing out that it's intended that you have to make a sacrifice.

As it sits, I'll need full arith/db nano armor, the fixer NCU, and a comm relay with full research done and champion of nano combat 10 trained to cast the new fixer short HoT self without swapping out my weapons for phulaks. When the nanoskill 3 research is finished, it may be possible to swap out some of all that, but with the equip time on a scope, its better to swap all that crap anyway. The short HoT lasts 3 minutes and 20 seconds, I'd likely spend most of that time swapping armor back on. If I really need to say anything more, I don't think its possible to get the point across from a fixer's standpoint. I have a 280 support brain, 270 left arm, and 300 artillery chest in. I'm lacking maybe 10 points of mat met from a perfect symb setup minus the small amount of trickle I may get from a 300 support ear.

[kuznechik]

Oh we do, but you know accusing the designers of idiotic ideas and being imbeciles is not the way to get it discussed at any length. There is never a problem with constructive criticism but personal insults and flames like that are totally out of order. I can assure you that the people who made these items understand the game far better, in more depth and with greater experience then the vast majority of you who are so quick to flame them.

Sorry for sounding harsh, but personal attacks of that type are never acceptable in that way. The designers work hard to provide you with new content, and you arent always going to agree with all aspects of it. (heh, even the designers and I don't always agree, even before you throw the tens of thousands of player opinions into the mix ) but that is not ever an excuse for not showing the designers respect for the work they do.

Insulting the very people who would be responsible for making any changes is hardly a sensible way to get what your opinion heard now is it?

And can we expect your answer to original topic? Or you bashed some flamer who got in the thread, felt that you answered it fully, moved along to warp thread about pet professions hardness of casting pets thread into MP forum (hint, it's mainly about engineers, you'll notice it if you at least read 1st post in that thread)?

Can we get your, big bad boss of FC' vision of professions and nano-casting requirements of new nanos for NTs, crats, shades, fixers, engineers.

Engineers are supposed to go full tradeskill/nanoskill setup? What for? To enhance their team with blockers and use that remodulator that doesn't do damage, but helps their side kill evaders? So all depth of playing engi can be turned to fully automated by ingame scripting + 1 keypress by out-of-game scripting (we still can't press Q by ingame means)?
As of today - engineers are only prof in AO who never went NR1 still struggling to cast their top nanos self with sane amount of hotswaps. Well, maybe only traders are basicly in same boat since they need both nano- and weapon- skills in large amounts (Yes, I saw NR1 enfos, advs and docs. NR1 NTs are pretty much standard nowadays)

Are shades supposed to run in arithmetic-based armor in combat in the future?

Are NTs supposed to be NR1 as addition to their already top NR?

Are crats supposed to solo LotV soon with range of init debuffs/evades/damage dealing available to them?

Are MAs/Advs/Fixers supposed to run with nanoskills gear all over them? I've got feeling that they are more of evade class and defensive attunement suits them better... I prolly mistaken, obviously...

Please, share it with us. If I need to be rude to get your answer - say so and I will.

[Koizumi]

Oh we do, but you know accusing the designers of idiotic ideas and being imbeciles is not the way to get it discussed at any length.

I might have /failed on seeing you giving ANY <strong> reason behind neither the new nano requirements nor the nanos (and their usefullness) themselves...And i've seen alot of people asking for it on either 17.7 update forums or profession forums.
Correct me if im wrong or blind.
Plus, your words toward me commenting me being pissed @ devs make it sound like "dont bite the hand thats feeding you" but dont forget that its the other way around...

I can assure you that the people who made these items understand the game far better, in more depth and with greater experience then the vast majority of you who are so quick to flame them.

Do you fail to understand that this vast majority sees their idea as...well, lets say AT LEAST...er....weird? (yea, i edited to censor myself..)
What do you think that matters more? The fact that they know the in-depth aspects of the game and create stuff that will be in THEIR opinion <somehow> someday maybe usefull?
Or the fact that MAJORITY your <customers> are pissed that you waste their money on making up stuff like this? Once agin w/o giving ANY <strong> reason behind this.

[Avari]

300 symbs used to be close to impossible to equip, now it's different. A game evolves, you aren't let in on the big plan, neither am I, but I'm guessing that these nanos will be very castable in the future.

These nanos do not seem intended to balance anything, but rather fix some old issues for some profs, and in order to give everyone an equal share they also get some new and maybe slightly useless ones. Take doctor for example, not exactly a profession that needs more heal power, but we get two team heals and an improved CH (which are all useless in PvP since BI is still better by far @ 220). We also get a slightly better B DoT which is cool, but you still have to give a hud/util spot to cast it in combat. Other profs can temp equip the hud/util item, cast the buffs and then re-equip combat gear. Yet another example that shows you that comparison will never be any "fair", but it might not be intended that it should be compared in the first place. Doctors have mentioned that it's ludicrous to call something healing 12k for a "complete heal" and that our team heals were outdated, hence we got some new nanos correcting this. It seems like FC is filling some of the odd gaps, and don't intend on balancing anything with these nanos. I noticed that both engi and doctor nanos were things taken from their concernlists, that's all I'm saying.

Another notion I'm finding very likely is the relation between nano/combat professions atm. There are plenty of weapons that no nano prof can ever equip or utilize if you aren't making a crap load of sacrifices - why should it be any different the other way around? Should combat profs get to cast all their nanos in the best combat gear? Some doctors give up the 220 heal in order to do more dmg, that's their choice.

People have gotten too used to easy mode imo - about time FC adds something that you can't use with existing equipments. I'd have to make changes in order to cast my new nanos too.