Also the absorb of inner balance is a joke. It even has a off and def skill... Its 2.5k inly shade tatoo is 5k...
Also the absorb of inner balance is a joke. It even has a off and def skill... Its 2.5k inly shade tatoo is 5k...
One big issue i have forgotten. theough all specials and items you have to use while duelling you dont have much ip for nanoskills whil in nr1 setup. I have to swapo lie 10 items and i dont like it. Either increase the durratiom of the nanos or lower the requiements. Sometimes im unbuffed because to lazy...
There is also a perk issue. Ma dmg perk sucks except the one you can use only under 15% hp.... Why??? Take it out shade have so much of those high dmg perks and the req is always only to have used the other perk before.
Last perk of brawler make it usuablr in duels. And increase the heals of the healperks
Hi. I'm a doctor and I can't go nr1 unless I nerf a good 75% of my setup. Also, I don't get coon. I don't get DOF or Limber. I get the same damage changer you do(alb), I don't get anywhere near the damage of a shade, or even an MA. You have more AR than me, I have better heals. I have more HP than you, you have easily double my evades or more and probably 1k more AR in similarly geared setups. MA's are not that bad off. Maybe a boring profession, or maybe too complicated. Either way they do suffer at tl7 for playability. But they are by far so bad that you need these changes.
Then you're not trying hard enough.Originally Posted by Teeko
Try even a moderate DD setup and you can do 170k DPM in SL, which is very close to what a pure fist MA will do.
I can do 170k. In a damage setup. But if an ma is trying to do damage they should be wearing weapons. You can't compare a dd setup vs sometime not trying. If an ma wants to complain about damage they have to be trying to do damage. There's an optimal way to go about that.
Last edited by Teeko; Jan 20th, 2015 at 02:34:37.
Nowadays, yes; I admit that an MA with weapons will definitely do better than a fist MA.
But also, to be fair, many MA's don't have all the weapons... at least not a few years ago and up to just the latest patches.
It was almost worthless to equip 1 shen stick, and equipping 2 shensticks was straight forward admittance that you were never going to PVP.
Now, however since the recent patch, I admit that even a PVP MA can do much better damage with a trip wield setup while not ruining his IP setup.
The last concession is that MA's do crap damage in SL regardless of weapons or fist, yes, with fist it's worse, but overall a doctor loses the least damage going from RK to SL, MA's lose the most. So, comparing a doc in SL to an MA in SL is the best venue for doc's and the worst venue for MA's.
And broadly speaking, allowing for weighted content an MA can do about 1.5-1.8x what a doctor can do.
How hard is it, to gather all of your suggestions and thoughts into the same thread guys? ^^'
Still glad to witness some recent activity in The Dojo, peace out
Angevil, proud 220 MA from Rimor.
Flourishing anew. About twelve GUI/Perk/Armor setups done so far, hopefully that one will outlast the criticism of my perfectionism!
Ars Magna. Histories became artifacts, images of poor effect, memories filled with acts and neglect
As a vulture of cultures I indeed feed my seeds with much greed, soaked in pleasure I succeed
SL or RK, an MA is still going to OD a doctor in a setup with comparable survivability. Maybe by less in SL, but more damage is more damage. I'm not saying MAs are a perfect profession by any means, they need some work. However asking for "fixes" so you can go NR1(which not many 220s can do and stay selfed/cast their best/most useful nanos can do) is insane. If you want to go nr1 and cast the same things non-nr1 MAs are casting, there are sacrifices. Also, you can't compensate for all MAs "not having the weapons". This is a choice and they can just as easily as anyone else farm dreads/beast/mitaar/12m/vort/whatever you farm for BoB. Let's be honest here, access is not a challenge anymore, especially at tl7 for any character. I can concede that MAs could use a damage boost in pvp at tl7, but damage in pvm is largely up to the person playing the character.
I'll admit that I didn't read the entire thread, and was mainly replying to Rocklee's post which came up on the new posts feed. I'll address his points here:
I'm gonna post this one last time but we should really try to organize the way we communicate with each other and/or with devs. Though I wonder if there will be be devs' feedback nowadays. I brought a few corrections to it.
I) Martial Art Attacks!
I wouldn't mind putting an Evade Close check instead of a Duck Explosive one on all MA Attacks (other than AFoK/KF). I'll come back to it at the end of the post. (*)
1) I was thinking about another process our Attacks could use, I'd like our Attacks not to work like Perks do
I wish they would, for instance, neither include our own AAO nor our opponent's AAD in their Attack & Defensive Skills.
It should work just fine, considering we usually have 400ish AAO and most end-game players have around 1K AAD.
It would not make Evade Perks (Limber, DoF) or end-game AAD Perks (CiB, Defensive Stance, Dodge the Blame) ineffective against MA Attacks.
2) Otherwise I'm all up for the Nodrop/collect part of our Attacks but let's face it, we're already buying some of them from VPs shop terminals.
Make all MA Attacks, or at least Nodrop ones (other than UaWoS) upgradable
If the required Skills (Parry/Riposte) of our Attacks finally become available, it could be worth the investment. Otherwise it'd be a real pain in the as* to raise these skills that high just to use QL 300 attacks. If that's even possible at all, whether we cannot reach such figures in Parry/Riposte and/or just can't afford the IP cost. We'd thus be grateful if both their requirements and effects also received an update.
3) Thanks B2 for reminding me a most wanted change, we'd like to be able to use our MA Attacks while perking, even running and without having to be in attack mode (like UaWoS).
It was once tried and ended up being a major failure but hey.
4) Most (both RK and LE) MA Attacks have a too short attack range (3-5m range apart from UaWoS which has a 40m range, and ToSF with a 15m range).
They could have a wider range, like ~10m (couldn't come up with a range in-between five and ten meters).
Let's create something called "distance to damage", with attack range templates for MA Attacks: ~0-5/10m range = 100-95% effectiveness, 10-15(or 20)m range = 90% and so on.
The "distance to dmg" effect could also be applied to our fists hits, with their native range set to 100% dmg efficiency, like it is now, but with the new possibility to hit farther, with less dmg efficiency and/or less % chance to hit (which would take the form of a lowered Attack Skill % as a weapon).
5) LE (VPs shop terminals MA Attacks+TosF) MA Attacks don't have a TL5 version.
6) Flower of Life and Delirium
First off, FoL has a too long recharge time and does no longer recover enough HPs.
Well, as you may already know, FoL has an AAD decrease effect on our target, and Deli is meant to boost our offense with an AAO buff but what's the point in having a 100% check on both of them, if they're (or at least Delirium, because FoL is also an healing source) meant to make our opponent perkable?
We already have sub-100% checking MA Attacks! 80% ones, Ape Fist of Khalum and Karmic Fist, even though they both check Evade Close, not Duck.
I think the 500 AAD penalty on Deli is enough to justify a decrease of its % of defensive check
Edit: Even more nowadays because of the amount of Atrox players
OWNED
7) Touch of Sai Fung
Locking Dimach is one very tricky thing indeed, we should own different types of Dimach attacks (alpha, beta, gamma for instance) with different locks (A,B,G) and different effects.
Also I'd like ToSF to be upgradable, up to QL 300 (like all Nodrop/Yesdrop RK MA Attacks and even VPs shop terminals MA Attacks can attain).
It's a MA Attack which requires 1801 Dimach Skill, originally (as a unique QL 215 Attack). The QL 300 version could require something like 2201 Dimach Skill.
As a QL 300 it would decrease our opponent's inits by 1500 points instead of 1K for the QL 215 one, and see its recharge halved (from 2 mins to a single minute), with its own template of debuff capacity (from 1K to 1,5K) and recharge time (120 to 60s) for each QL in-between 215 & 300.
8) Sappo is quite useless as it currently is.
For a LE Attack it doesn't really make sense, most MAs prefer to keep on using Blessed with Thunder rather than Sappo for PvM purposes, I'm not even talking about PvP where it's quite useless.
Three minutes lock...
9) Many older Attacks are also useless. Attack of the Snake, Bird of Prey, Angel of the Night, Shen, Karmic Fist (which is supposed to be an upgrade of Ape Fist of Khalum, but in reality, it’s more like a downgrade).
A higher version of Tree of Enlightenment would also be welcome, I suppose.
We would like not to have a nano recharge on our MA Attacks that stun such as Bright, Blue, Cloudless Sky and Touch of Sai Fung.
Instead, you (the devs) could for example apply the cooldown system you're going to make up with our Heals to that kind of Attacks, a local cooldown on MA Attacks but not a nano recharge.
OWNED
While we're at it, please fix the bug that prevents us from chain stunning a target when we cycle BBCS & ToSF.
The second stun won't land even after both of the visual effect and Tight Embrace program are gone from the first attack.
OWNED
II) Now let’s talk about Nanos!
10) Well, first of all, Cohort.
This Nano used to give 200 Bow Special Attack but it was changed with 14.4.2 Patch.
It then gave 300 more ACs (200 more for Poison AC, 400 in total) and became pretty much useless.
I think the previous version would fit a lot more actually, please give it another try.
11) Muscle Booster, Horde, Velocity, Dirty Fighter, Four Fists of Kali, Lesser Controller Rage are way too old and need some updating.
HALF-OWNED
12) Anvil Fists doesn’t set our damage to its type, could there be a version of it that would indeed set our damage to the selected type of fists, with every kind of damage available that already exists in other MAs fists buffs (even the most temporary one) such as chemical, melee, fire, energy, cold types.
OWNED
13) Return Attack doesn’t last enough time (but you’re going to increase buffs duration, right?) and costs too many NCUs for what it gives (+50 Riposte).
14) Autumns Leaves, our best ((SL)) temp add. dmg. buff has too high requirements.
15) Give Energy and Give Life Nano programs are utterly useless, but there could be interesting things done with them.
16) A SO buff could be cool, considering it’s IMPOSSIBLE to use Tear of Oedipus without a couple of AI Armor pieces we'd sometimes like to get rid of and a RW Infantry Symb or Implant with SO which may sound kinda outdated ND purposes but I think it's been made very clear that Nanopool will be way differently spent in the next updates and that we may eventually lack of it in sooner than we think.
OWNED
17) Form of Risan will be available along with Reduce Inertia or Stutter Step (respectively the best MA RK/SL evade close buffs), at least I hope it'll still be the case.
The Devs did suggest that there could be some useful MC Nanos in a near future or that they could simply delete all MC requirements from our buffs.
Well guys, I’d like to know what exactly you had in mind, if we were to create other Nanos based on Matter Creation?
---> Matter creation is the process inverse to particle annihilation. It is the conversion of massless particles into one or more massive particles. This process is the time reversal of annihilation.
Wikipedia definition is quite sufficient as is, the concept could be interesting in my opinion.
FoR was modified
III) Weaponary
18) A P.I reliant and reliable PvM/PvP Bow.
19) I'm not quite up for putting a MA-only tag on BoB/Shen Sticks or even Tonfas but there should be different versions of these weapons available for us having a MA-only tag.
With some real PvP purposes!
SOMEWHAT OWNED
SA seems the most evident ability to add to these weapons so they can have a real PvP use for MAs. I'm also up for a 5 or 7% critical chance proc having about 30% of chance to land (on hit), 10s duration.
Well, most MAs find Shen Sticks outdated. Maybe some Xan version could be created.
OWNED
IV) Other thoughts
20) Rework Dimach recharge at all TLs with a tweaked up but similar conception than it is now, with more templates and at a constant rate of decrease, especially for MAs at TL7.
The decrease of recharge is just too little to be any viable at this TL, no need to max Dimach. 2001+ is enough to get a tad under ten minutes recharge and to use every possible TL7 MA Attack which requires Dimach Skill.
Plus the last (2001-3000) Skill template grants us a 5 mins recharge decrease, whereas the previous template (1001-2000) offers a 19.18 mins to 10 mins decrease (9.18 mins, almost twice less recharge time!) we could say it "scales" but I guess there are a few concrete cases where "scaling" just cannot operate that way.
Especially when the last template cannot be quite achieved, not even to its half, we cannot reach more than 2,4Kish Dimach Skill at 220.
Though we are the only Profession to have a sub 10 mins recharge Dimach of this kind (a Dimach that deals sustainable dmg), I, for one, surely wouldn't mind putting Melee Advs back in business but it still wouldn't feel quite fair for Enforcers to share that dimach recharge time decrease with us.
We were told about "incoming" MA Zazen stance, let's create a different Dimach effect depending on the Stance we're playing with. That or the Alpha/Beta/Gamma Dimach thingie I went through earlier on.
21) Brawling
We can achieve more than 2,5K Brawling Skill at 220 if we perk Brawler fully. We're the specialized Brawling Profession, period.
But its stun chance (10% at first and 20% for the last template) does not really reflect the prowess of going from 1K to 2-2,5K+ Skill.
Then again, Enforcers would greatly benefit from such change...
22) There should be other versions of Symbiants that fit each Profession, until the very Breed we choose to couple our Profession with. Same goes for Perks. That would be a real balance rework imo.
At least an upgradable (up to QL 300) Syndicate Symbiant.
With a decent NR buff but nowhere equal to what a Support Brain of the same QL (+/- 10) provides for MA.
Probably a bit less than half Support Brain benefits, like 45 NR at QL 180 which is the original and current QL of Syndicate Symbs and 70 as QL 300.
23) Martial Artist Physical Initiative
In order to balance what our MA skill/physical initiative dynamics cripple us with (that is, our attack speed), there could be a wholly reworked agg/def bar usage with an optimal and more precise slider that sets and displays our current attack speed, a way to determine how fast we hit under whichever setup, through whichever debuff(s) (P.I/MA Skill ratio), and finally how many MA and P.I Skill points we need to either lower or raise, in harmony, so we can hit a plain 1/1 attack time hits on our fists.
Something like http://www.unityoftherose.com/tools/aggdefcalc.htm implanted, in-game.
When we go full agg, it just makes us hit faster. Having not-so-high defensive figures and usually a (very) poor attack time, full def is both a must-do defensively and a no-go offensively wise for a MA. How to make full defense a viable offensive option too, how to optimize our damage.
Our fists, as weapons, have a 100% evade close check rate as defensive skill. Which is, as of today, the case, regardless of your attack time; they include all of your target's close combat evade Skill as well as his AAD and even slidebar position in order to determine, along with your own MA Skill and AAO, your chance to make a successful hit.
(*) Here's what I suggest: the higher our attack speed time gets (that is to say, the slower we hit), the less % of close combat (opponent's) skill it checks, still with a 100% AAD check.
Why is that? Well, it would make perfect sense if we are to make all MA attacks defensive skill check Close and not Duck like I first suggested, both sharing the exact same mechanic --> one that is defined by our attack time.
It could take the form of an hostile nano (100% cast chance) of this kind: a 2% Evade Close debuff to our opponent's evade close skill for each 0.1s under 1/1 attack speed. With a -25% close combat skill debuff cap because of outside debuffs, for instance.
In a nutshell, the natural cap (when we have no hostile buffs running) would therefore inflicts a -16% combat close skill debuff to our target, as our attack time doesn't get any slower than 1.8(4)s with our highest (read worst) P.I/MA skill template ratio (the template that goes up to 3K MA Skill which is the penultimate one fyi).
Remember, hitting 1/1 attack time on our fists would still check 100% of our target's defensive skills. Sounds decent to me.
Edit: One odd thing though, did anybody ever notice that the last MA skill template (3001+ skill) sets our attack time speed back to 1.25s (from 3001 skill to whatever number above) when it's 1.84s at 3000, using UoTR? This tool must be broken! I don't exactly remember hitting faster through the highest MA Skill template when I tried it.
Last edited by Soliartist; May 30th, 2015 at 23:09:46.
Angevil, proud 220 MA from Rimor.
Flourishing anew. About twelve GUI/Perk/Armor setups done so far, hopefully that one will outlast the criticism of my perfectionism!
Ars Magna. Histories became artifacts, images of poor effect, memories filled with acts and neglect
As a vulture of cultures I indeed feed my seeds with much greed, soaked in pleasure I succeed
I basically agree with all that Ang said.
My main concerns, which you clearly stated (not in any specific order):
1. Cool Downs on MA attacks, and the BBCS/ToSF being broken when chained. As well as being able to use them when we arent in combat.
2. It has bugged the hell out of me, why can we not stack Risan and RI/Stutter???
3. Inability to hotswap because of heal recharge, getting fixed from what Ive heard tho, Ill keep my fingers crossed here.
4. Duration of our buffs, It gets really annoying to rebuff every 20 minutes.
5. LE Attacks, Would love to see varying Qls of these, including like ql180 for TL5s and ql300s for 220s.
6. Im not sure I like the idea of any profession being able to use a Sneak Attack version of BoB's, but I would certainly like to see at least an MA only version of BoB's with SA on it. Also quick props for updating the damage on BoB's, I completely use it in my offhand with no IP in mult melee now days when I am forced to do pvm on my MA, and im loving the triple wield love again.
7. I really really like your higher ql of a syndicate brain idea, I was 100% looking at my MA about 2 hours ago, and was thinking to myself "Man, I wish Syndi Brain had even 40 NR on it, Id totally use it over the 280 Support Brain" (We wont get into the crappy trox twinking abilities tho)
8. Fire whoever decided Sappo was even worth coding into the game. Just playing, but seriously, its completely worthless, I did have a paragraph typed here explaining possible changes/fixes, but really I keep coming back to its worthless. Blessed with thunder is better all around, mainly due to the cooldown of Sappo, and what are we supposed to do with this in pvp? It checks duck exp at least, but still it locks MA skill..meaning the same locks as AF and BBCS...which are both really important in our pvp tools, an MA should never, ever pick Sappo in pvp, ever.
Rocts - 220 Soli Martial Artist
Rocts2 - Leveling Bow Soli Martial Artist
Testlive Trox MA - Wtscrits // Opi MA - Rocts // Soli MA - Rocts2 // Deleted NM MA, not Viable.
+many old TL7s across old retired accounts.
Doctors would be mainly the target here as they are probably the only other profession using MA at 220, and I don't really think it would be a problem because doctors already have access to troa'ler and if we could have the same PVP capabilities(Ok, maybe slightly lowered capabilities because 40s recharge) as martial arts, maybe some more variation will occur in setups. Which really appeals to me. Is there any specific reason other professions shouldn't have access to a bob with sneak attack?
I just hate doctors, personallyIn all seriousness, it wasnt really directed at Doctors, although I suppose they could see some of this same thing if given this route for pvp. My concern is opening the door to other professions using this as a pvp setup, and also having access to MA attacks, such as Enigma, BBCS, and FOL. Granted, probably only traders or Shades? would get enough AR to hit anyone with those books, but still, I just dont like the idea behind other professions having a stun now, with sneak attack, and being able to drain nano from a target, I feel like thats kind of what makes MAs so unique, and i feel like other professions have their own kits they should be using.
Im pretty sure Atrox Shades would all of a sudden become the new fad again as well, if they went MA and still had access to SA and now the books as well, they could literally chain stun anything to death. Now I may be wrong about this, but im pretty sure as it stands now, shades using a piercing weapon and a tonfa in off hand cant use MA books, because of the piercing weapon in main hand. Can anyone confirm that? Ive only seen like 2 Piercing/MA shades ever. I know I cant use MA attacks if I have a phulak in my main hand and a bob in off, because of no combined MA skill on main hand weapon.
Last edited by Rocts; Jan 30th, 2015 at 06:15:54.
Rocts - 220 Soli Martial Artist
Rocts2 - Leveling Bow Soli Martial Artist
Testlive Trox MA - Wtscrits // Opi MA - Rocts // Soli MA - Rocts2 // Deleted NM MA, not Viable.
+many old TL7s across old retired accounts.
Doctors don't have access to most MA attacks, and even the ones we do, were limited in the usage because of IP constraints. We don't have the IP for Parry/Riposte so any decent QL of those are out of the question.
I see how this could become an issue with shades, however that sounds like an exception to the "this would be good for everyone" statement. I think we would be better off trying to prevent shades from getting stupid awesome(more than now) than restricting weapons more.
Last edited by Teeko; Jan 30th, 2015 at 08:32:44.
Maybe instead of putting all this time and effort into whining on forum, you go put effort into your ma. Theres a lot of goods mas in both pvp and pvm. Sucks to suck. Nut youre just not doing it right.
And ofc all the MAs who left just didn't know how to play MA properly
:: Izolenta :: Kynopoc :: Dreamech :: Dreamchaser :: Batmobile ::
President of Molotoff Cocktail
Playing since 2002/06/26
Basically. Ive played ma, i dont knkwcwhere you get theyre nerfed. Evades/heals/dd/dynamic setups/nr..... QQma need shade damage / doc heals / lower nano reqs/lower nano cost. If thata how you truly feel...bai.
I didnt say MA was nerfed in totw
:: Izolenta :: Kynopoc :: Dreamech :: Dreamchaser :: Batmobile ::
President of Molotoff Cocktail
Playing since 2002/06/26
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