MA balancing

[McKnuckleSamwich]

What ranged MAs? There's only 1. But that's like saying ranged enforcers need love, I mean we are a melee class... just because we have support for a weapon type doesn't mean we were meant to use that weapon as a main weapon, because we have MUCH more support for fists than bow hence it's logical that FC meant for us to use fists. While advs always had equal-ish support for pistol and for 1he


Thing is, if you want a ranged prof with AS, why not roll something like an agent or something?

There is more than 1, and there would be more than 1 iffff....
sure, reroll, you done the grind lately?
I have 1 220 toon, and I play 1 220 toon, and I will only play 1 220 toon, because I don' thave 5 years to build a new one.

advies didn't have "equalish" support until 18.2 or whatever.

[Soliartist]

But, Noobast, there were way more Ranged Advs pre 18.2 than Ranged MAs, nowadays. I feel you about the grind part though. Always wanted to play a 220 Atrox Agent, never had the will to build one up. Although I've already rolled it, he's called Extinguir, and that's probably my next Character if I ever play AO again.

[navycut]

There is more than 1, and there would be more than 1 iffff....
sure, reroll, you done the grind lately?
I have 1 220 toon, and I play 1 220 toon, and I will only play 1 220 toon, because I don' thave 5 years to build a new one.

advies didn't have "equalish" support until 18.2 or whatever.

Ranged advs weren't total gimps that couldn't do anything pre 18.2, look at Racatti's adv, it was always ranged and he doesn't think it was all that bad.

Do you think they are fine now? No they recieved a stupid amount of love enough to make them truly riduculous in pvp, it didn't make them equal to melee. what I was saying was that they've always had buffs that buffs pretty much the same amounts for 1he and pistol, MAs have what 2 buffs for bow? One from scheol quest and the other from DB quest.

Eh yeah the grind is bad but it's doable if you put your mind to it

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Ranged advs weren't total gimps that couldn't do anything pre 18.2, look at Racatti's adv, it was always ranged and he doesn't think it was all that bad.

Do you think they are fine now? No they recieved a stupid amount of love enough to make them truly riduculous in pvp, it didn't make them equal to melee. what I was saying was that they've always had buffs that buffs pretty much the same amounts for 1he and pistol, MAs have what 2 buffs for bow? One from scheol quest and the other from DB quest.

Eh yeah the grind is bad but it's doable if you put your mind to it

Vast divergence from topic. Ma's have bow support, we need more.

The reason there are no successful Ranged MA's is that there is not enough support. <--intention of literary prose, AKA OP, AKA, wall of text.

[navycut]

I can also say there aren't any melee agents because they don't have enough support. And yes agents do have sneak attack buffs (Unexpected Attack buffs sneak as well) and green sneak attack.

Even fixers have SA support (backpain). Does that mean they should get viable SA weapons and melee support?

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I can also say there aren't any melee agents because they don't have enough support. And yes agents do have sneak attack buffs (Unexpected Attack buffs sneak as well) and green sneak attack.

Even fixers have SA support (backpain). Does that mean they should get viable SA weapons and melee support?

You're way off topic, and arguing something which has no grounds.

Here are some rebuttals:
1. Agents do use SA. if you aren't familiar, there is a weapon they often use called piercing evil as part of their alpha.
2. nobody makes melee agents, except... wait for it, a MA agent I saw one time.
3. While fixers have backpain, one buff surely doesn't mean that the prof has "support" (we can otherwise argue fast attack for MA's, martial arts for engineers, melee energy or piercing for enforcers, chemistry for agents, heck, why not make comp lit the check for traders alternative weapon?)

None of those arguments, nor the rebuttals, matter in the case of MA ranged support.

Here's why:
1. MA's have long been one of two profs who are endowed with real bow support, arguably, MA's have the highest support of any prof.
2. MA's are the only prof able to use top bows, therefore, by process of elimination, we should be best able to use them (before arguing this, please consider the obvious)

We have established that MA's have the most support out of any other prof, and MA's can use the top bows in game, which begs the question: Why don't more MA's go bow?

And this is what you should be arguing for, Navy, not against. MA's need slightly more bow support to make it worth while.

MA's lack bow support in the following ways:
1. A heal perk which fits in a reasonable perk setup
2. AS support in perks
3. Bow is not in faded cluster spot on either support/infantry symbiants
4. Aimed shot is not in either of faded or bright cluster spots in either of support or infantry symbs
5. MA's lack a professional bow line which should have a bevy of modifiers and bring us up to par with other professions who opt for an alternative weapon template: FOR EXAMPLE: Light stalker.

Thus, while yes, other profs do have support for max HP, comp lit, weapon smithing or sneak attack, they may not be the top choice for building an effective offense on; MA's however, are endowed with significant support via AI perk lines, quite good bow AR support via buffs and symbiant modifiers, yet lack in some areas due to years of neglect. So, all I'm saying, and doing, is bringing to the attention of the devs where MA's need bow support.

@Navy, don't bother going off topic. It's eating up time I should be working.

[navycut]

Here are some rebuttals:
1. Agents do use SA. if you aren't familiar, there is a weapon they often use called piercing evil as part of their alpha.

Exactly, it's part of their alpha, not what they run around with permanently. Sound familiar?

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Exactly, it's part of their alpha, not what they run around with permanently. Sound familiar?

hmm, youre off topic. how many perks do agents put into SA? (1 buff)

0+1

How many perks do MA's have to put into bow? (2 buffs)

20+2

thats 22x more support get it?

[Szyylin]

1. Agents do use SA. if you aren't familiar, there is a weapon they often use called piercing evil as part of their alpha.

There are some agents that you can count on one or two hands that use PE. That's not "often". They use it for hotswaps in pvp, nobody runs around killing mobs with a PE.

2. nobody makes melee agents, except... wait for it, a MA agent I saw one time.

I saw a 2he soldier once 5 years ago too. Several 2he fixers too. That's not an argument.
The only serious MA agent i know of is Ebondevil's agent on TEST SERVER. Feel free to prove me wrong on that one though.

3. While fixers have backpain, one buff surely doesn't mean that the prof has "support" (we can otherwise argue fast attack for MA's, martial arts for engineers, melee energy or piercing for enforcers, chemistry for agents, heck, why not make comp lit the check for traders alternative weapon?)

That's exactly what we are saying, having a green skill or a buff from 10 years ago doesn't mean that your prof should have more support for it.

I mostly agree with what you wrote about MAs and bows, but your attempt at rebuttals fails.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

There are some agents that you can count on one or two hands that use PE. That's not "often". They use it for hotswaps in pvp, nobody runs around killing mobs with a PE.


I saw a 2he soldier once 5 years ago too. Several 2he fixers too. That's not an argument.
The only serious MA agent i know of is Ebondevil's agent on TEST SERVER. Feel free to prove me wrong on that one though.


That's exactly what we are saying, having a green skill or a buff from 10 years ago doesn't mean that your prof should have more support for it.

I mostly agree with what you wrote about MAs and bows, but your attempt at rebuttals fails.

pardon me, but all your arguments are in agreement with mine.

But, are you saying that MA's shouldn't be *allowed* to use bows?

[Gatester]

if anything, the reverse should be true.

I meant based on gear a ranged MA "would" have more evades than a fist MA, not that a ranged MA deserves more evades.

[Szyylin]

pardon me, but all your arguments are in agreement with mine.

But, are you saying that MA's shouldn't be *allowed* to use bows?

If my arguments are in agreement with yours it means that my irony detector bugged. If so my bad.

I think that MAs should be allowed to use bows. BUT using a bow as a main MA weapon doesn't sound "MAish" to me. You're supposed to kill with your fists!

[McKnuckleSamwich]

If my arguments are in agreement with yours it means that my irony detector bugged. If so my bad.

I think that MAs should be allowed to use bows. BUT using a bow as a main MA weapon doesn't sound "MAish" to me. You're supposed to kill with your fists!

Just for reference: can you define "supposed" for me?

Is that the same as: Soldiers are "supposed" to use Assault rifle?

or, advies are "supposed" to use 1he?

or, enforcers are "supposed" to use 2hb?

or, engineers are "supposed" to use remodulator?

You see, all of these profs have options, and I disagree that MA's are "supposed" to kill with your fist!

Note that I'm not saying you're wrong. I just have a different view of my freedoms, and I want more support using a weapon which appears to have lost some support over the years.

[Soliartist]

"Supposed" to kill with fists just because that's how it's been done from the beginning, in the most efficient way. Because of all the MA specific stuff that can no longer be used when you carry a Bow (MA Attacks and so on), I think.

Edit: Freedom is more a bitch than anything, sometimes. Because of it, you've got to make choices. You base these choices from all the pros that gravitate around it, coupled with the cons. I fail to see how it we "lost" Bow support btw, just take a look at the buff you like to mention, Supreme Kyudo, that came with 17.7. It's just that MPs have been drastically boosted, from a Bow support point of view, nothing else really.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

"Supposed" to kill with fists just because that's how it's been done from the beginning, in the most efficient way. Because of all the MA specific stuff that can no longer be used when you carry a Bow (MA Attacks and so on), I think.

Edit: Freedom is more a bitch than anything, sometimes. Because of it, you've got to make choices. You base these choices from all the pros that gravitate around it, coupled with the cons. I fail to see how it we "lost" Bow support btw, just take a look at the buff you like to mention, Supreme Kyudo, that came with 17.7. It's just that MPs have been drastically boosted, from a Bow support point of view, nothing else really.

Advies, for example have "always" been melee, because, well, clearly they had more support for 1he/SA, than pistol+AS/FA.

Ma's have always been fist, sure, because we've had "more" support. Clearly, though, Developers have toyed with the idea that MA's were meant to have more options.

The bow toting MA is the single most obvious evidence that the dev's considered MA's to have an option. So, what changed the developers' minds?

Spear of Forbidden Ceremonies.

Period. The advent of the duel hotswap setup was the single biggest nail in the coffin in the trend of MA's gaining support for alternative setups.

As a result, here we are, at the cusp of a significant rebalance, and, what concerns me is: SA will lock AS. That is a known change that IS coming.

So, I want to remedy, or at least bring attention to, the alternative setup that for over a year now has been completely disregarded as a possible alternative due to the strength of offensive capability which most MA's adopted in the duel hotswap approach.

So, dear ex-professional: how strong will "fists" be without SA or AS?

Or, better yet, how strong is "fists" without SA or AS?

Better still, lets stay on topic, and discuss how and where bow alternative setups started to be neglected. We have a lot of catching up to do.

[Arlancor]

While I have to admit that I just read it very quick I like the idea to improve Ranged MA's. Bump for SL bow perkline.

[Szyylin]

Just for reference: can you define "supposed" for me?

Is that the same as: Soldiers are "supposed" to use Assault rifle?

or, advies are "supposed" to use 1he?

or, enforcers are "supposed" to use 2hb?

or, engineers are "supposed" to use remodulator?

You see, all of these profs have options, and I disagree that MA's are "supposed" to kill with your fist!

Note that I'm not saying you're wrong. I just have a different view of my freedoms, and I want more support using a weapon which appears to have lost some support over the years.

MAs are "supposed" to use fists just like soldiers are "supposed" to use assault rifles and agents are "supposed" to use rifles. It's just their natural weapon. How many soldiers would go SMG if SMG didn't OD Assault rifle for some weird reason?

If you want to wander an alternative path, that's fine, and you can, that's what makes AO fun. I'm thinking of using ice arrows on my agent after rebalance. will i do it? will it work? we'll see. But that's not a reason for me to ask for more bow support for agents.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

MAs are "supposed" to use fists just like soldiers are "supposed" to use assault rifles and agents are "supposed" to use rifles. It's just their natural weapon. How many soldiers would go SMG if SMG didn't OD Assault rifle for some weird reason?

If you want to wander an alternative path, that's fine, and you can, that's what makes AO fun. I'm thinking of using ice arrows on my agent after rebalance. will i do it? will it work? we'll see. But that's not a reason for me to ask for more bow support for agents.

Well the recharge on the ofab bow is so long that getting a decent AS recharge pretty much gimps youre entire setup, leaving you with with a retardly low AR, and substandard offensive AND defensive capability.

I have tried bow for a few days, and I'm glad I have some resets, because MA's are ruined in bow.

[Gatester]

Bows and shotguns were actually the best option for MAs a while back.

Honestly though, I'd see more support for giving MAs piercing support or 1hb support

[Arlancor]

Well the recharge on the ofab bow is so long that getting a decent AS recharge pretty much gimps youre entire setup, leaving you with with a retardly low AR, and substandard offensive AND defensive capability.

I have tried bow for a few days, and I'm glad I have some resets, because MA's are ruined in bow.

I think it is a viable option for pvp, as it works now.
Did you pvp or did pvm content if I may ask? for pvm its not an option.