Nemesis Nanos Balance

[Technogen]

This thread is part addressing the nanos themselves and part addressing them post balance so if ARKs feel please move this to game suggestions.

The nanos.

# Adventurer
Heal modifier -50

# Agent
Target Modify Sensory improvement -750
Target Modify Matter metamorphosis -750
Target Modify Biological metamorphosis -750
Target Modify Psychological modifications -750
Target Modify Matter creation -750
Target Modify Time and space -750

# Bureaucrat
Target Hit Health Poison -1500 .. -1500 10 hits, 1.99s delay
if Form == 17710 or
Form == 227238 or
Form == 30356 or
Form == 30348 or
Form == 30365 or
Form == 17655

# Doctor
Target Hit Current nano -750 .. -750 5 hits, 2.99s delay
Target Modify Sensory improvement -500
Target Modify Matter metamorphosis -500
Target Modify Biological metamorphosis -500
Target Modify Psychological modifications -500
Target Modify Matter creation -500
Target Modify Time and space -500

# Enforcer
Target Modify Duck explosives -1000
Target Modify Dodge ranged -1000
Target Modify Evade close -1000
Target Modify Critical chance -10

# Engineer
Target Modify Smg -600
Target Modify Ranged init -600
Target Modify Burst -600

# Fixer
Target Modify Sensory improvement -750
Target Modify Matter metamorphosis -750
Target Modify Biological metamorphosis -750
Target Modify Psychological modifications -750
Target Modify Matter creation -750
Target Modify Time and space -750

# Keeper
Target Modify Rifle -1250

# Martial artist
Target Modify Sensory improvement -750
Target Modify Matter metamorphosis -750
Target Modify Biological metamorphosis -750
Target Modify Psychological modifications -750
Target Modify Matter creation -750
Target Modify Time and space -750

# Meta-physicist
Target Modify Nano attack damage modifier -25

# Nano-technician
This nano formula will clear any rage or essence effects that an Enforcer has running.

# Shade
This nano formula will remove active auras from a Keeper.

# Soldier
Target Modify Piercing -1000

# Trader
Target Modify Reflect projectile damage -100
Target Modify Reflect melee damage -100
Target Modify Reflect energy damage -100
Target Modify Reflect chemical damage -100
Target Modify Reflect radiation damage -100
Target Modify Reflect cold damage -100
Target Modify Reflect fire damage -100
Target Modify Reflect poison damage -100
User Cast Borrowed Reflect

[Technogen]

Suggested changes.

All the nanos will be a dual cast nano, meaning it would cast both its debuff and the lockout on cast. On top of that all of the nanos are the same duration both in cast and lockout.

Duration = 15s
Local Cooldown Lockout = 1 minute 30 second.
Target Lockout = 30 seconds.

The Nanos and their New Effects

# Adventurer
Heal modifier -25%

# Agent
if Random roll <= 49
Target Modify Matter metamorphosis -450
Target Modify Biological metamorphosis -450
if Random roll <= 50
Target Modify Matter creation -450
Target Modify Time and space -450

# Bureaucrat
Target Hit Health Poison -500 .. -500 15 hits, 1s delay
if Form == 0

# Doctor
Target Hit Current nano -750 .. -750 5 hits, 3s delay
if Random roll <= 33
Target Modify Sensory improvement -250
Target Modify Psychological modifications -250
if Random roll <= 65
Target Modify Biological metamorphosis -250
Target Modify Matter metamorphosis -250
if Random roll >= 66
Target Modify Matter creation -250
Target Modify Time and space -250

# Enforcer
Target Modify Evade close -1000
Target Modify Critical chance -10

# Engineer
Target Modify Burst -400
Target Modify Aimed Shot -400
Target Modify Full Auto -400
Target Modify Fling Shot -400

# Fixer
Target Modify Brawl -400
Target Modify Sneak Attack -400
Target Modify Fast Attack -400
Target Modify Dimach -400

# Keeper
Target Modify Rifle -625
Target Modify Assault Rifle -625
Target Modify Shotgun -625
Target Modify Pistol -625


I cant come up with something useful for MA, I was maybe thinking Heal Delta nerf and anti-crit nerf.
# Martial artist
Target Modify Sensory improvement -750
Target Modify Matter metamorphosis -750
Target Modify Biological metamorphosis -750
Target Modify Psychological modifications -750
Target Modify Matter creation -750
Target Modify Time and space -750

# Meta-physicist
Target Modify Nano attack damage modifier -25
Target Modify attack damage modifier -25% (I'm getting lazy but all weapon damage by 25%)

# Nano-technician
Target Modify Remove all Enforcer and soldier and doctor health buffs

# Shade
This nano formula will remove stop all nanos from refreshing on the target.

# Soldier
Target Modify 1he -625
Target Modify 2he -625
Target Modify Martial arts -625
Target Modify 1hb -625
Target Modify 2hb -625

# Trader
All ready done by devs, just need LC added.

[Eseb]

The best thing is to just remove all of them. All they do is make PvP about what prof you're fighting instead of actual skill.

If you MUST have nemesis nanos, though, they should be there to fix balance issues. For example, give solds a nano that uses up some of an engi's blockers, or fixers a nano that gives NTs -50% nano dmg. They need to fix balance issues, not create new ones.

[Berinda]

No point in giving soldiers a weapon skill debuff, we'll still get hit.

[Technogen]

No point in giving soldiers a weapon skill debuff, we'll still get hit.

Yes you will get hit but weapon skill directly translates into damage until MBS, so if the debuff lowers the amount of damage the player is able to do with the weapon it will directly translate into the soldiers defense being more robust.

[Ashes2Ashes]

There are people who are lobbying on both sides of this issue. Fair, simple, easy solution to follow...

Nano Crystal (Nemesis Inhibitor)

NCU: 5
NanoCost: 800
School: Psionic
Duration: 30 Mins
Attack time: 1s
Recharge Time: 1.5s
Range: Self

Description: Originally created by the fixer Ofoz to protect fellow Hacker Club Affilliates, by setting up a specialized firewall against the intrusive nemesis nanos. That started appearing shortly after the Battlestation nano libraries were hacked. The running of this program in your ncu will ensure "the infamous nemesis nanos" never disrupt you at inoppertune moments.

Focus Effect:You have recently used a powerful defensive formulae. Your NCU has been focused on defensive libraries, and will not be able to execute any Nemesis Nanos for the duration of this formulae, consequently your ncu is safeguarded from the effects of any hostile nemesis nano programs.


There you go. Throw a lockout timer for nemesis programs, so this can't be abused by clicking it off, casting a nemesis nano, and then recasting this to protect yourself. Throw a visual effect ala-Dust Brigade Buffs, so ppl know who is, or isn't running Nemesis Inhibitor so they wont waste thier time trying to cast a nemesis nano on thier target if they see this running.

This way those who want to pvp with the Nemesis Nanos can, and those who choose not to simply wont be effected by them.

Or if thats too much, feel free adjust the description/effect to make this the "Fixer" version of a nemesis nano, we simply stop you from hacking our shiz!

[Berinda]

Yes you will get hit but weapon skill directly translates into damage until MBS, so if the debuff lowers the amount of damage the player is able to do with the weapon it will directly translate into the soldiers defense being more robust.

Lowering a weapon skill by 650 isn't going to translate into any meaningful damage reduction, and is not on par power wise with any of your other suggestions.

The only thing that would foot the bill of being a debuff soldiers could use is an evade debuff - and historically, if soldiers have had the skills needed to land evade debuffs, the target has low enough evades that they didn't need debuffed.

[MassDebater]

Lowering a weapon skill by 650 isn't going to translate into any meaningful damage reduction, and is not on par power wise with any of your other suggestions.

The only thing that would foot the bill of being a debuff soldiers could use is an evade debuff - and historically, if soldiers have had the skills needed to land evade debuffs, the target has low enough evades that they didn't need debuffed.

Then I guess youll just have to put up with high AR, high damage. fa and ams

[NoGoal]

# Bureaucrat
Target Hit Health Poison -500 .. -500 15 hits, 1s delay
if Form == 0

I'd rather suggest:

# Bureaucrat
Target Set Form == 0
if Form == 17710 or
Form == 227238 or
Form == 30356 or
Form == 30348 or
Form == 30365 or
Form == 17655

(removes morphs :P)

[bitnykk]

i hate those people that just have to say "removed = fixed" without any interesting suggestion. plz cut the crap !

@techno : about your changes, what i don't like :
- random rolls make these unreliable on efficiency. NR roll to resist is enough this side.
- heal mod 25% depends on how they nerf heals already. might be enough (or not !).
- enforcers don't need more evade debuff, they got enough AAO. give it another prof missing AR.
- special -400 are useless. as a fixer i still prefer blindside as it is. i'm sure engis don't like neither.
- keeper range debuff is way to OP compared to most of those buffs.
- nt one seem funny like you designed
- shade is unclear ? you talk about procs ?
- MP is way too OP, like keeper.
- same for soldier on all melee. they got relfect already ! ffs ...
- trader don't need borrow reflect. i think a reflect debuff might be enough.

in the end your suggestion isn't balanced enough imo.

[Drakeep]

Hey,

I think the ideas in here are decent, don't forget the 15 seconds duration he suggested with the lock on all of em. Makes any nano that might be slighty over the top acceptable imo.

[Avari]

Some of the suggestions are horrible. 250 nano skill debuff and 3750 nano drain over 15 seconds not subtracting the crats nano delta - how's that gonna severely harm a crat in a way that you'll call doctors their nemesis?

The whole point is that nemesis nanos are a failed concept. You need to make them strong enough to actually be a nemesis, but at the same time you have a high risk of making the game breaking. It's simply impossible to balance them properly across professions because such a delicate balance does not exist in a game such as AO.

[Taranide]

Adventurer:
* Morph target into a tree for 5s.
Agent:
* Cloaking device effect on target for 5s.
Bureucrat:
* Unremovable root.
Doctor:
* 50 heal modifier debuff.
Enforcer:
* Makes all players of opposing faction in range to attack enforcer, Deranged Xan style.
Engineer:
* Warps pets over to the target and a short unremovable snare.
Fixer:
* -2k nanoinit debuff, consider your NCU hacked.
Keeper:
* Tractor beam (yeah heard it's coming anyway)
Martial artist:
* Tractor beam or temporary super ninja runspeed mode.
Meta-physicist:
* Summons two extra attack pets for a short period of time.
Nano-technician:
* Target is unable to regain nano in any way.
Shade:
* -1k debuff on all evades.
Soldier:
* Isn't this the profession that should be able to borrow reflect.
Trader:
* Target loses same amount of HP as one uses nano.

Short durations, reasonable lockouts. Give them some cool names and stuff. Why nanos like this? Because I'd like to nemesis nanos be something that you could see coming from the opponent instead of prof vs prof related yibby yabby.

[Technogen]

- special -400 are useless. as a fixer i still prefer blindside as it is. i'm sure engis don't like neither.

specials.

@ Ella: Last time I checked special recharge was checked/set at the time it was last used. Assuming the target has just barely 11sec FA it would look like this:
FA°1 -> DEBUFFED! -> FA°2@11sec@600ARless -> FA°3@(11+600/25=35sec)+11=46sec@600ARless

-600 Special Skill would slow down ....
Burst and FullAuto by 600 / 25 = 24sec
AS by 600 / 33 = ~18.2sec
FlingShot and FastAttack by 600 / 100 = 6 sec

Lower AS & SA multiplier by 6-7

Granted it's based on 600 skill and for all specials but this would reduce the recharge rate on the special abilities.

[Technogen]

Some of the suggestions are horrible. 250 nano skill debuff and 3750 nano drain over 15 seconds not subtracting the crats nano delta - how's that gonna severely harm a crat in a way that you'll call doctors their nemesis

Sorry I should edit the 2nd post so this makes more sense, but these nanos are designed such that they will land on anyone not just X prof.

[Avari]

Sorry I should edit the 2nd post so this makes more sense, but these nanos are designed such that they will land on anyone not just X prof.

I missed that part, my bad.

I still don't see much of the point though. It'll be hell for any nano profession to deal with even more nano skill debuffs than we already are with traders and MPs, not to mention the smaller debuffs flying around in perk setups too. I don't want to remove the uniqueness of the trader/MP tool set either. It's not a doctors job to debuff nano skills.

The idea of a nano pool debuff is also rather ridiculous to start with, since it's so hard to balance. Not only do you suffer the effects of the debuff, but you also suffer after effects of having to regain nano. No other type of debuff lingers like that once it's removed. When a drain is removed the skills are back, but when GTH is removed you have to regain your nano before going back into the fight. Even with the new version of GTH proposed in FwM, I'll still prefer to die than be hit with GTH. It's just not how a game should be.

[RmikClan]

# Adventurer
Heal modifier -50

thats no nemesis nano....docs get so much heal eff this days that we barely feel that debuff


as a doc i suggest to even increase this to -75% to give advs a small chance to kill us

[Klod9003]

i hate those people that just have to say "removed = fixed" without any interesting suggestion. plz cut the crap !

Well, sad but true. This would actually be the best way to fix that issue.

[erozc]

# Adventurer
Heal modifier -50

thats no nemesis nano....docs get so much heal eff this days that we barely feel that debuff


as a doc i suggest to even increase this to -75% to give advs a small chance to kill us

Misdiagnosis is a pain too tbh. It's one of the medium powered nemesis nanos I'd say.

I don't know what to make of this then, except hypotheses about uber and not so uber docs.

In nerfed form misdiagnosis would be usable vs. the FP doc agents, and to some extent other advies as well. Maybe it should work on the MP heal ball too?

[Avari]

# Adventurer
Heal modifier -50

thats no nemesis nano....docs get so much heal eff this days that we barely feel that debuff

as a doc i suggest to even increase this to -75% to give advs a small chance to kill us

Not so much true for PvP doctors. PvP setups have less +healeff than PvM setups.

If you look at it isolated one BI (~12k) heals roughly 1.5 cap'ed specials with a setup of 25k HP. -50% healeff would take that down to not even being able to heal a single cap, and there're definetly a lot of those coming our way. Remember that doctors survive only by out-healing and nothing else. Damage mitigation (UBT) is no longer a viable part of our tool set, since it hardly affects anyone's dmg anymore.

I don't know what to make of this then, except hypotheses about uber and not so uber docs.

In nerfed form misdiagnosis would be usable vs. the FP doc agents, and to some extent other advies as well. Maybe it should work on the MP heal ball too?

Above reply explains it pretty much. I have to add though, that I didn't say that Misdiagnosis was imbalanced, but merely that it was a pain and one of the medium powered nemesis nanos. Medium powered is idealy where we should be, since it would otherwise be over or under powered.