in pvm the enfo goes/dies first...
in chess the pawn goes/dies first...
hey!!!!
on a serious note if NR were fixed to be ass reliable as evades, or alowed you to resist part of the nano then rage should (in theory) provide enough NR to be an effective defense, when combined with tools like FM/MotR/what ever else i cant think of off the top of my head.
i also believe that rage lockout should be equal to the root lockout so one on one, were still good, but in cases where there is more than one rooter we need to start using our brains
side note: will roots lock out snares? if they dont then i forsee people snaring wait for rage root and do whatever
What concerns me as a not really into enfo person, is that instead of clear improvements it stays the same. That mixed with the knowledge that Enforcers are okayish but not exceptional in pvp and seeing other proffesions get boosts, theoretically leaves enforcers in the dust where others move on. Which in turn would mean a flaw in a rebalancing act. My hope however is that the Devs are just leaving something behind for special reasons.
I dont really like Enforcers but, possible contributions to affect an enforcer positively would be a "get over here" nano so that running from an Enforcer becomes less likely in which case the rage nano wont be as needed anymore. Like a sort of compensation.
Also Enforcer is all about the attack rating, so bumping up their 2HE skill would give a good boost into the desired effect of being an Enforcer. Nowadays they look absolutely nerfed with their +120 buffs compared to for instance Keepers +170.
And lastly id suggest that Enforcers make better use of their evades if hitpoints are going to be slightly nerfed. Even tho logically it wouldnt fit, it would be a compensation for getting less maximum hp (i know itll only affect Ultra Mongo Behe).
hmm i dont see how its gonn work out tbh... if snares and roots have a 1 min CD and rage lasts 30 secs.. then enforcers will be set to have a crappy NR for 30 secs if root and snares have the same time on lockouts as rage does.
theres no way that roots is gonna last shorter then 15-30 secs in pvp. and having them on a 30 sec lockout would just be redicuolus if they are getting improved landing chance etc and would be a 100% sure doom to all the melee classes. or atleast force all melee classes to go NR8.
as i have said before.. its not so much not being able to spam rage for root breaking that worries me, its running around with crappy NR that will be the worst drawback or in best case senario having to choose between having NR or breaking roots.
since enfs are one of the classes that casts most nanos in AO (all our defences is based on casting nanos basically) we will get extremely vulnerable to anything that debuffs our capability to cast stuff. it will have the same effect as throwing RI on an agent.
we will be left with minimal to 0 defence as soon as a psy mod inexperience lands on us.
anyone that plays an enf in pvp knows that the strenghts of an enf is a massive alpha. and the ability to run away when the alpha is on cooldown.
the removal of almost all our stunning powers and the increase in execution time at the same time as lowering our dmg on the alpha will remove the enfs alpha capability.
wich leaves us with the strenght of running away in pvp.
wich will get nerfed with a lockout on rage.
the third real defence enforcers has is the Nano resist.
wich with a lockout on rage (if longer lockout then rage lasts) will be gone aswell or if the lockout is shorter then the rage duration still will force us have to choose between having high RS/NR or saving rage for root breaking.
the talk about changing the biocoons stacking order back to its original state is something long overdue and a nerf that never should have hit enfs in the first place and frankly with all perks doin the same dmg as the dmg type on wepon nowadays isnt gonna be nearly enough to compensate for only the lockout on rage.
and the unlocking of 1he / 1hb perks so they dont lock eachother out anylonger is not a tweak at all since they are still usable together if u chain them up. it will just make it a little easier to use.
and in my opinion the nerf shouldnt have been introduced in the first place.
spending IP and perk points in 2 different wepon skills should give a benefit over only spending IP in 1 wepon skill, and should result in more attack perks for the defencive perks sacrifized.
its a loss of about 4k health and 3 healperks sacrifized to get some aditional alpha power.
and if looking at the PDF perk documents. 1hb dmg is getting cut down, same is the execution time of all attack perks increased to 2 secs meaning it will take twice as long to actually excute the alpha.
the execution time increase on the alpha will result that we wont be able to get our full alpha off in 1 MR, and the stun perks will be completly useless due to the fact that the professions we need the stun perks to kill (docs, agents) will in fact ahve the time to just throw a heal right in the middle of our alpha and thus completly neglect the killing power our alpha has atm.
combine that with the craptastic dmg enforcers have between alphas and we will be worse off then keepers are in todays pvp.
add to that that enforcers are probably the melee profession that will benefit the least from parry/riposte since we are the only class that doesnt have any buffs for it and MAs has already been stated to benefit the most.
then add to the fact that enforcer to get a competitive AR in pvp are completely reliant on 2 challanger procs that requires us to actually hit the target we are fighting.
add to that the fact that the nerf to AS wont affect us as much as it will affect any evade profession. due to the fact that AS will get a def check and well.... frankly enfs has one of the lowest defs in game, ecept for NR where we excel only thnx to rage.
and as the last point, wich i have mentioned several times in this thread before. all other professions is getting new exciting stuffs.
enforcers has about as bright future to look forward to as a kick in the groin atm.
Moonbolt - 220/26/something. Trox Enf RK1 General of Hells Heroes.
Renswind - 220/21/67 solitus trader.
Moonkiss - 219/21/something opifex shade.
Mooncloud - 150/18/somethin solitus MA.
Dont let me burst ur bubble but if u keep on explaining why the rage nerf isnt any good, u wont get any further than u already are. If (and god forbid) ppl start to (and ive seen a few try it but getting snowed under) sum up some good improvements aside from the rage nerf, u might actually come out okay. Open up the mind for something new entirely, the sky is the limit for ideas. The devs are the limit for what comes into the game. Convince them of improvement ideas u have. Thats what rebalancing is about, show the weakness spots in your proffesion currently at hand. But i dont see how u guys would improve if u keep on being stuck with the rage nerf. Im pretty sure theres a way to work with it.
It looks to me like a lost battle to keep ur rage the same tho so imo come with something new and possibly groundbraking. Ive seen other proffesions come up with new stuff so bring em and help ur proffesionals
wait, there actually considering making the cooldown for rage longer than the duration?
and from what ive heard CD for snares/roots will be like 8-15 seconds. anything longer would cripple theit ability to get away from more than one person.
Member of Spartans
Hacre/Solitus/Keeper/220/29/70 - Ninpopotamus/Solitus/NT/220/30/70 - Charmming/Opifex/Crat/220/30/70
Genius at work.
All of this is focused around rage. IMO enf have been the most up and down class in the game, going from the top of the food chain to the bottom back and forth in pvp. As long as the duration of rage is longer than the cooldown and everyone is getting cool downs then I don't see the argument. This is balance, don't cry too much till we see it in action.
In my 7ish years playing an enf as my "main" I never hit max level, one big reason for this is that while leveling damage is sub par to other classes and the ability to tank in a non-raid setting for a leveling enf is laughable through most of the level ranges (other than that I haven't played continuously and have tons of alts). I'm sure I can get teams and I can level but the fact is that I hate being in a team and having no real function... can't keep up with utility or damage classes and sure can't keep a mob on me in a non-raid setting. Besides not being able to keep a mob on me why fight for it when 1/2 the other classes can do just as good if not better of a job tanking in a mission etc. while having more damage/utility (I would be glad to elaborate on this if needed)
Even though I am a little late on this thread I would like to make a few suggestions.
1. Giving some type of borrow aggression from a member of your team for a mission type setting where you don't have the time to build hate through the heavy alpha of your team mates. Maybe a % of the hate a team mate builds is sent to the enforcer.
2. Bridge the gap. End game is fine for enforcer survival wise but there is some huge gaps, we have no evades to speak of compared to most and the huge hps only come into play in later levels. I like the fact that we are not a "hope I don't get hit more than once between heals" class. This gives us the ability to be a consistent tank but at lower levels when you don't have huge hps it doesn't work out well.
3. We are pretty much a 1 use 1 play style class in pvm especially raids... mongo mongo mongo taunt taunt taunt. Perhaps some variability in styles could be worked in, lets take an example mass groups vs single target. Perhaps there could be builds that would favor one situation over another.
a. Tanking lots of mobs,
I'm not sure how the parry is going to work but lets say you have a build for tanking lots of mobs at once you might opt to have the % to not get hit chance if your getting lots of hits for not much damage, the mitigation from the % parry or whatever would out weigh a take X% less damage. Also building area hate is more important.
b. Tanking single mobs.
In this case your looking at single big hits of damage and it is a very different situation to the one mentioned above. In this case you would want the consistency of % less damage taken over hoping to not get hit too much between heals. Also with mutli weps you get more procs etc more often for taunt and you might opt a perk line etc to assist with single target vs area taunts.
This could give some needed dynamics to the enf class endgame. This is also not to say that one build couldn't do the job of the other just that one would be better at said job, perhaps opening up more than 1 tank spot in more raids etc.
Anyway just some suggestions and I could elaborate further if anyone is interested.
Last edited by totam1; Feb 18th, 2010 at 20:24:27.
How about making the single target taunts wipe the hate list on the target mob, -then- deliver a taunt?
Member of Spartans
Hacre/Solitus/Keeper/220/29/70 - Ninpopotamus/Solitus/NT/220/30/70 - Charmming/Opifex/Crat/220/30/70
Genius at work.
Wiping hate list would be easily exploitable or bug mobs (no agg->hd). Taunts in PvE don't need anything, enfo can already keep agg with taunts alone, without even doing damage.
blah
Once they reach 215 they can, sure.
Before being so quick to jump and criticise, look at my suggestion again:
Wipe hate list
THEN
Taunt, so the usual 1 point of damage then however much hate that particular taunt generates.
No mention of calms here and as soon as the hate list is wiped, damage+taunt is delivered, so I don't see where the room for EXPLOITABLE HD is either.
You could even put this one in a separate line of nanos so once it's used the Enforcer could spam a regular taunt nano to build up their own hate, without having to "outhate" other team members such as heal aggro from docs or DD from classes that, especially at lower levels, can OD the Enforcer damage+taunts.
I'm not saying it's the best idea ever to hit the forums, but it's a better idea than your hand waving dismissal is suggesting.
Last edited by Hacre; Feb 19th, 2010 at 13:18:52.
Member of Spartans
Hacre/Solitus/Keeper/220/29/70 - Ninpopotamus/Solitus/NT/220/30/70 - Charmming/Opifex/Crat/220/30/70
Genius at work.
I think wiping hate list would make it too easy to keep aggro. Going from one extreme to another would be so like FC though. I do agree that enforcers need some boosting in taunts between levels 150 and 215. I like the idea of transferring aggro from the team to the enforcer. Not sure how it could be implemented though. A possible alternative would be an aura that gives a negative taunt modifier to the team, resulting in more or less the same overall effect
I could see some other potential problems with a complete wipe of aggro:
Say you have a high damage member that was holding back till mid fight. A not so good team mate that went nuts from the start so you do hate wipe then the good team mate that was waiting for hate to build to unload does so and gets splatted.
I agree that at higher levels and especially in raids where people are paying attention and playing smart it is no problem to keep aggro. I am referring more to trigger happy random teams leveling where there is definitely a problem/gap. I think a -% taunt buff would be ok as long as it is something that can be clicked off with long duration.
I doubt it is just me that has waited after every other fight because some guy thought it would be faster to alpha a mob before hate is established on a tank and died and sent 1/2 the team to reclaim in the process. And before you say it, yes, you can just kick the goober from the team but it is so hard to get a team now for mid levels that you kinda have to take what you can get. Some way to lessen this would be invaluable for an enforcer.
Last edited by totam1; Feb 19th, 2010 at 16:12:06.