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Thread: Spirit Phylacerty idea

  1. #1

    Spirit Phylacerty idea

    A shade's toolset relies on landing offensive perks on an opponent. Which means that if the opponent is not perkable, the shade has a very limited toolset.

    A lot of the other professions have some form of toolset from nanos which can be used on evaders. Shade's don't.

    The Spirit Phylacerty (SP) perk line has perks which DoT health + nano and perks which drain AAO/AAD, transferring some back to the shade. This is one of the profession defining perk lines for a shade.

    As a defensive tool, the AAO drain works to increase the relative defense rating of the shade. Without the AAO drain running on an opponent, a shade's evades aren't much of a defense.

    What if:

    - DoT / nano drain perks where given 150% AMS check so they could be landed on evaders and thus have an impact with these perks.

    - the AAO/AAD drain perks 'cast' two different actions on use.
    1st action: AAO drain, AAO buff with a 150% AMS check. This drains AAO from the target increasing the relative value of the shade's defense rating (current amount is 502). It also increases the attack rating of the shade (current amount is 368).

    2nd action: AAD drain, AAD buff with a 100% AMS check. This drains AAD from the target increasing the relative attack rating of the shade (current amount is 513). It also increases the defense rating of the shade via the AAD buff (current amount is 209).


    Attack rating of an end game AI armor wearing shade with a setup that doesn't sacrifice too much defense for attack rating and no towers is between 3k and 3.2k. With 3.2k attack rating... a 150% AMS check gives an attack rating of 4.8k. Fixer/CiB professions will be able to resist with their 1k AAD perk and DoF up. It will allow shades to debuff anything but fixers with only DoF up. Some might be able to resist with DoF + Limber up. These checks are ONLY for the DoT's/Nano drain perks and the AAO drains (which increase the shade's relative defense rating and increase the shade's attack rating by 368.

    So... a 3k AR shade against an opponent with 3.5k static evade close rating:
    - perkable with the AAO drains and nano dot's unless they have 1k AAD perk and DoF running
    - after landing the AAO drains, the shade now has 3.368k attack rating with the opponent remaining unperkable. With the shade's evade close debuff proc running on the target, then the target is perkable with 100% checking perks with no other temporary evade buffs (resistable with Limber).

    - a 3.2k AR shade would be able to perk 3.5k static through limber with everything aligned.

    - an opi shade would be able to add another -150 evade debuff to the mix pushing their AR to a level which woulc open up a lot more targets to being perked (everything aligned).

    - a trox shade would be able to debuff anything using mongo rage and wouldn't have to wait for evade perks to go down.


    A 368 temporary AR buff is similar to the temporary AR buffing or defense skill debuffing available to other professions.

    Including the evade debuff proc (+200) and Blur (about +100), the effective attack rating increase is 668 (with a lot of conditions met). If this figure needs balancing, please remove the proc from the game.


    ps. the reduction of the AAO debuff is a huge nerf to a shade's defense. Could shade's get the numbers for the AAO debuff and AAD buff switched. So instead of debuffing the target's AAO by 502 for 15 seconds and AAD of the shade for 209 for 60 seconds, debuff AAO by 209 for 15 seconds and buff AAD on shade for 502 for 60 seconds. This would mean that targets which aren't perkable with 100% checks would only have their offense lowered by 209 but the relative change in offense would be the same against 100% perkable targets (solds / enfs).

    pps. with all SP debuffs running on a target, they'll have 11 items in their NCU from 3 different lines. If the effects were stacked like the NT NR debuff or Malpractice, this would reduce the number of items in the target's and shade's NCU.

  2. #2
    I must admit, trox shade without Mongo "lack of skills" Rage perkline here. It surely sucks having a 3200 AR and not being able to perk 90% of targets. I always suggest chaging TR so it's a bit more pvp friendly. SP, I rarely use in pvp. But it does help, though duration completely sucks.
    Aborted "Provision" Lovechild - 220/30/70 - Shade

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Perking View Post
    I must admit, trox shade without Mongo "lack of skills" Rage perkline here. It surely sucks having a 3200 AR and not being able to perk 90% of targets. I always suggest chaging TR so it's a bit more pvp friendly. SP, I rarely use in pvp. But it does help, though duration completely sucks.
    SP is good when fighting enf's / soldiers. with the duration of the debuff change, this use is going to be significantly reduced and almost made useless. its also nice for getting enough AR to perk some keepers / mp's / traders.

    damage type matching weapon type is a nice boost for TR. it will mean being able to rip through coon with PM then heal up a bit with TR.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by mr_road View Post
    What if:

    - DoT / nano drain perks where given 150% AMS check so they could be landed on evaders and thus have an impact with these perks.

    With 3.2k attack rating... a 150% AMS check gives an attack rating of 4.8k. Fixer/CiB professions will be able to resist with their 1k AAD perk and DoF up. It will allow shades to debuff anything but fixers with only DoF up.
    So basicly what I think you are trying to say is that SP line should have a 66.67% defensive check, with 3200 AR being equivalent to 4800 AR?

    Calculation:
    3200 / 0,6667≈ 4800

    I agree on you pov though.

  5. #5
    The only instances I do use SP is against enforcers and soldiers ironically. They're about the only thing the perkline will land on. Sad.
    Aborted "Provision" Lovechild - 220/30/70 - Shade

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Perking View Post
    I must admit, trox shade without Mongo "lack of skills" Rage perkline here. It surely sucks having a 3200 AR and not being able to perk 90% of targets. I always suggest chaging TR so it's a bit more pvp friendly. SP, I rarely use in pvp. But it does help, though duration completely sucks.


    Wait wut?! , i used to have 3330 Ar (with 275+ towers yes ) and i was perking advys in limber .... not to mention 99% of the Ma population , mps anything basicly and if i couldnt SP would make it happen .
    You sure your not hunting down small yoda midgets with a big bar and wierd names , those are GMs my padawan .
    "Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit, because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure. "

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by iolanda View Post
    and i was perking advys in limber .... not to mention 99% of the Ma population
    *cough*

    MAs have CiB...and thus usually a higher def than advies

    and you perk 99% of MAs? With MR yes, otherwise no.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Superflare View Post
    So basicly what I think you are trying to say is that SP line should have a 66.67% defensive check, with 3200 AR being equivalent to 4800 AR?

    Calculation:
    3200 / 0,6667≈ 4800

    I agree on you pov though.
    Only parts of SP would have a reduced defensive check.

    150% AR is not the equivalent of 66% evade close because AAD is added after the percentage check is made.

    A defensive check of 66% evade close = 66% * evade close + AAD
    So with 2.4k evades and 1k AAD as an example: defense rating is 1.6k evades and 1k AAD = 2.6k defense rating and thus 2.6k AR to perk with 100% AR checking perk.


    A attacking rating check of 150% vs 100% evade close = 150% * AR
    So if the target has 2.4k evades and 1k AAD, the def rating is 3.4k
    150% AR means 3.5k/1.5 = 2.33k attack rating needed to perk that defense rating.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by mr_road View Post
    Only parts of SP would have a reduced defensive check.

    150% AR is not the equivalent of 66% evade close because AAD is added after the percentage check is made.

    A defensive check of 66% evade close = 66% * evade close + AAD
    So with 2.4k evades and 1k AAD as an example: defense rating is 1.6k evades and 1k AAD = 2.6k defense rating and thus 2.6k AR to perk with 100% AR checking perk.


    A attacking rating check of 150% vs 100% evade close = 150% * AR
    So if the target has 2.4k evades and 1k AAD, the def rating is 3.4k
    150% AR means 3.5k/1.5 = 2.33k attack rating needed to perk that defense rating.
    I think we are are talking about the same thing, just a different approach.

    Example:

    Target: 2400 evade close +1000 aad = 3400 static defense (lets call it defense rating)
    Shade: 2500 piercing + 700 aao = 3200 attack rating (as shown in "stats" in GUI)

    In this case perk checking attack rating vs. defense rating 100 / 100 will be resisted.


    Using blur with a 95 % defense check:

    In my example the target got 3400 defense rating. By using blur the Shades attack rating (3200) will check against 95 % of targets defense rating (3400*0.95 = 3230).

    A bit closer but perk would be resisted as AR was still 3200 and 95 % of targets defense is 3230.


    Now to compare our approach:

    Your approach (150 % AR check on SP)

    You said: "A attacking rating check of 150% vs 100% evade close = 150% * AR
    So if the target has 2.4k evades and 1k AAD, the def rating is 3.4k"


    Then you calculated (you wrote 3500 but I guess it was ment to be 3400?):
    3400 / 1.5 = 2266,67 attack rating needed to perk 3400 defense rating with a 150 % AR check.


    My approach (66,67 % defense check on SP)

    I will use same numbers as you. Instead of SP having 150 % attack rating check, I say 66,67 % defence check.

    Calculated: 3400*0,6666666667 = 2266,67

    Did we get the same answer?

    My conclusion is that 150 % AR check and 66,67 % Defense check on SP is equivalent.
    Last edited by Superflare; Nov 24th, 2009 at 18:04:01.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Superflare View Post
    Example:

    Target: 2400 evade close +1000 aad = 3400 static defense (lets call it defense rating)
    Shade: 2500 piercing + 700 aao = 3200 attack rating (as shown in "stats" in GUI)

    In this case perk checking attack rating vs. defense rating 100 / 100 will be resisted.


    Using blur with a 95 % defense check:

    In my example the target got 3400 defense rating. By using blur the Shades attack rating (3200) will check against 95 % of targets defense rating (3400*0.95 = 3230).

    A bit closer but perk would be resisted as AR was still 3200 and 95 % of targets defense is 3230.
    This is where you make your mistake.

    AAD is added to the defense check, after the %-check has been calculated.

    So instead of your 3400*0.95 = 3230 defense check, the actual defense check is 2400*0.95+1000=3280 defense check.
    Lupusceleri L220/30/70 Agent -- Advisor of Spartans -- equip endgame AR setup endgame def setup <3 Azs wearer of Cheree's pants
    Arrowsmith -- Arafellin -- Alphacenta -- Aesculapias -- Wolfseye -- Lysdexic


    TL5 enf twink: im out those MPs are to overpowered

    crattey: The Balance Discussion forum. Where common sense goes to die.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by iolanda View Post
    and i was perking advys in limber .... not to mention 99% of the Ma population , mps anything basicly and if i couldnt SP would make it happen .
    HAHAHAHA

    Ok now your E-pen0r is all out for everyone to see, time to go back to kinder garden please...

    Anyhow i see that roughly three years later shades(non trox especially) are still in the abyss of the pvp chain...

    I'll never understand FC attitude towards this prof...

    A few years back shades were at least great DD and good pve wise.At least i remember the time when people were happy to get a shade in XP team, and our solo habilities were as well very good.
    PVP sucked, pvp always sucked for shades(die on reflect shield with the target ignoring you, good times) althought it became a bit better after what? 3 years of ultra gimpyness?.
    Now every support profs OD the old king of pve DD.

    What's left for shades then?nada, thx FC!

    ALL other gimped profs got some heavy love for pvp, traders(tl7), MP, NT(lol? a bit too much?).Even uber OPed ones got love with expansions, Dshark was a mastermind gamedesign addition lol...

    Now after a big AO break what do i see? they gave HUGE boost to ranged advies?
    hahaha good move FC as usual...
    Don't forget CH for soldiers next month.Well give them evade nano +1000 for 2 hours sometimes AMS isn't enough...

    hahaha oh woaw.

    No wonder Rubi-Ka is empty...
    There seems to be problems with the internet itself!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Lupusceleri View Post
    This is where you make your mistake.

    AAD is added to the defense check, after the %-check has been calculated.

    So instead of your 3400*0.95 = 3230 defense check, the actual defense check is 2400*0.95+1000=3280 defense check.
    But why is AAD added after? Didnt see it mentioned in perk changes. Can I have the the link to any source that confirms it? Im not saying you are wrong, but It just seems strange. But hey, after all its Funcom

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by keitelo View Post

    What's left for shades then?nada, thx FC!
    Hehe, hopefully we will once shine again...maybe

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Superflare View Post
    But why is AAD added after? Didnt see it mentioned in perk changes. Can I have the the link to any source that confirms it? Im not saying you are wrong, but It just seems strange. But hey, after all its Funcom
    That's simply the way things are, right now, on Live and Test servers. As far as I'm aware, nothing was (going to be) changed about it the last few years.

    Don't ask me why, as indeed, it's Funcom.
    Lupusceleri L220/30/70 Agent -- Advisor of Spartans -- equip endgame AR setup endgame def setup <3 Azs wearer of Cheree's pants
    Arrowsmith -- Arafellin -- Alphacenta -- Aesculapias -- Wolfseye -- Lysdexic


    TL5 enf twink: im out those MPs are to overpowered

    crattey: The Balance Discussion forum. Where common sense goes to die.

  15. #15
    "Then you calculated (you wrote 3500 but I guess it was ment to be 3400?):"

    yeah. my bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superflare View Post
    But why is AAD added after? Didnt see it mentioned in perk changes. Can I have the the link to any source that confirms it? Im not saying you are wrong, but It just seems strange. But hey, after all its Funcom
    because the defensive check is evade close. and for perk defense checks, the defense rating is evade skill + AAD.

    so, 95% evade close refers to the defense rating using 95% of the evade close value. the AAD is added after that.

    so its... (evade close * 0.95) + AAD = defense rating.



    as for proof... don't have any.

    it could be checked by getting someone with the new pistol perks to try and perk someone who would be perkable IF it was 80% of defense rating and not perkable IF it was 80% of dodge ranged.

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