Enforcers RAGE Nano - rework (NERF!)

[Xenotric]

As I've stated I wouldn't really be bothered if it stayed how it was (I've all about given up using any fixer combat nano's other then perhaps dodge debuff), but I would love it if it (and many other things) where reworked to be in a way they where before SL's made certain stats alot higher.

I remember when Rage was a situational tool for removal of roots or fighting heavy casters, but not a permenant buff. And if it wore out during battle it was a sacrifice to recast it again (as the damage built up and the nano cost actually meant something) And I would love to see it be an occasional buff again rather then something seen as a permenant buff whos down side is "having to cast it again".

And if that comes with a big change else where I dont mind, perhaps give enforcers a small NR buff that get over ridden when raged so even without rage they still have all their defense and perhaps remove a ton of the root/snare resistance around the game so that they can land but can be removed easily now and again by those classes that should be able to remove them (enforcers being the main one) but harder for those that shouldn't be able to remove them instantly

[Moonbolt]

and i would like to see snares and roots have a hughe drawback and init debuffs aswell.
rage isnt OP in any way, its 1 of the few survival tools enforcers have that actually works as its supposed to do.

[Kitesfear]

This is something I really have to say, just to point out something so many has forgotten...

Good enfos seem to dodge up to 2800 AR on 100% check perks at least from time to time - that may or may not have to do with Wit though, but it is still quite unbelievable, 100% focused on defense or not (even though 100% defensive setups supposedly claim more static def than 2.8k). Concerning the doctor comments, I thought you did state that "in addition to weapon perks" as in the following:

You do realize that, for example, evade setuped (and not even sacrificing everything to evades) TROX soldier can get near 3k static dodge, with ~100 points lower on other evade skills. This is selfed, without towers, no Wit, and no ACDCs or other "ultrarare" items. This setup will also give 400-500 more static AR than an enfo with 2.8k def has without Chall & procs (and if you pop Chall, you won't be breaking any roots).
The self-proclaimed glass cannons of the game can get 3k+ static dodge in working PvP setup, or so have they said.
Agents in evade setup go for over 3k static def too, if my memory serves me right. We don't need to go to true evaders or even semi-evaders like keepers or traders, they all have better evade skills than enforcers do.
Only two (2) professions in AO have lower static def than enforcers do, engineers (mine, with alphas and somewhat AADish setup has from 2k evade to 2.4k duck def. Yes, including AAD) and doctors, and I'm not even too sure about the docs. There seems to be a thread in their lair about evade builds that might get useful when and if the alpha damage drops so they don't need to sacrifice everything for HP.

And I have hard time seeing an enfo getting 2.8k static def without high towers and/or perks up, at least in a setup they can do anything else than dodge supports while waiting a solja come by to splatter them all across the nearby walls.

[howlin]

You do realize that, for example, evade setuped (and not even sacrificing everything to evades) TROX soldier can get near 3k static dodge, with ~100 points lower on other evade skills. This is selfed, without towers, no Wit, and no ACDCs or other "ultrarare" items.

Says a lot about poor soldiers

[schloops]

Tl7 enfos with low nr would be like sitting ducks to the caster classes... their nr (and rs) is what makes it fun for us and for them. As much as I like situational nanoes, not all of them need to be.

If it makes sense for lower level, then it should change there (sorry, I'm clueless about low level pvp)... but at tl7, they are facing opponents that also have wtf nanoes. Plz, don't ruin the fun for tl7 enfos and nts, and whatever else caster class they are a danger to .

I'm not sure how usefull it is to speak about one nano when the whole game is about to change though... on the other hand, I started enough useless threads about gth, so I won't throw the first heckler (would probably land on my head otherwise ).

[Hacre]

Considering how many of your posts have been devoted to downplaying NT PvP status, I'm not sure you are best qualified to offer that observation.

I'll have 1 billion credits sent to a toon of your choice if you can prove where I downplay NT power.

This is not to be confused with me mixing some actual reality into ridiculously outlandish posts/claims others have made.

I know NTs are powerful. I know some of the things they have need some adjusting, go find my NT Changes thread and it's all there in the OP and in other threads I've put forward suggestions for changes to Constant Barrage which, if implemented would actually make it even -harder- to land on Enforcers than it already is.

So point it out, or, troll elsewhere.

[Moonbolt]

ok ive been to lazy to actually post a real reply in this thread so far.

enforcers is a class that relies heavy on casting to survive at all - Imongo, rage, absorb without those 3 nanos that we need to refresh in pvp every 5 secs - every 3 mins depending on wich of the buffs we are talking about.

can give a couple of examples here.

Imongo is our only realyable healing wich has to be recast about every 30 seconds to keep the HoT up.

Challanger is a must to keep up as much as possible because with out it our AR is one of the lowest of the combat professions and since we rely heavily on perks to actually inflict any dmg at all we gotta try and keep this up at strategic times. for example recast it while we are using coon so we dont get hammered during recharge. lasts 3 mins if i remember correctly.

absorbs has to be recast as often as possible due to the massive dmg enfs are taking due to low def and high caps etc.

with out rage running 100% of the time we are extremely vulnerable to debuffs wich differs us from classes like shades/keepers wich doesnt have to do any combat casting at all.
rage is probably the most important nano in our whole arsenal w/o it 1 bio met inexperience can dissable basically any other defence we got.

Imongo requires 1534 BM/PM to cast wich is not easy to get as an enf.. before the alpha symbs are in we need both Nano Huds and CoNC to cast it wich gimps up our AAD.

challanger requires 1235 BM/MM to cast with enfs nano skills 1 drain or 1 dominate BM is enough to make us unable to refresh challanger.

absorbs require 1335 BM/MM and 1 dominate BM or 1 drain dissables us from refreshing this aswell.

without rage enfs have 2050ish NR wich would make it unbelievable easy to land drains, dominates, crown of frost or any other nano skill debuffing nano/perk and leave us completly defenceless as we wont be able to cast our defensive buffs aswell as we wont be able to run away.

without rage enfs would have 0 root/snare resistance and pretty low runspeed compared to most classes since its a dark blue skill making us unable to catch any kiting professions.
same as we would be sitting ducks to any rooting / snaring profession.

as i said earlier on. rage is fine as it is, its a nessecary tool for enfs to eb able to actually do ANYTHING in pvp.

[Hacre]

ok ive been to lazy to actually post a real reply in this thread so far.

enforcers is a class that relies heavy on casting to survive at all - Imongo, rage, absorb without those 3 nanos that we need to refresh in pvp every 5 secs - every 3 mins depending on wich of the buffs we are talking about.

can give a couple of examples here.

Imongo is our only realyable healing wich has to be recast about every 30 seconds to keep the HoT up.

Challanger is a must to keep up as much as possible because with out it our AR is one of the lowest of the combat professions and since we rely heavily on perks to actually inflict any dmg at all we gotta try and keep this up at strategic times. for example recast it while we are using coon so we dont get hammered during recharge. lasts 3 mins if i remember correctly.

absorbs has to be recast as often as possible due to the massive dmg enfs are taking due to low def and high caps etc.

with out rage running 100% of the time we are extremely vulnerable to debuffs wich differs us from classes like shades/keepers wich doesnt have to do any combat casting at all.
rage is probably the most important nano in our whole arsenal w/o it 1 bio met inexperience can dissable basically any other defence we got.

Imongo requires 1534 BM/PM to cast wich is not easy to get as an enf.. before the alpha symbs are in we need both Nano Huds and CoNC to cast it wich gimps up our AAD.

challanger requires 1235 BM/MM to cast with enfs nano skills 1 drain or 1 dominate BM is enough to make us unable to refresh challanger.

absorbs require 1335 BM/MM and 1 dominate BM or 1 drain dissables us from refreshing this aswell.

without rage enfs have 2050ish NR wich would make it unbelievable easy to land drains, dominates, crown of frost or any other nano skill debuffing nano/perk and leave us completly defenceless as we wont be able to cast our defensive buffs aswell as we wont be able to run away.

without rage enfs would have 0 root/snare resistance and pretty low runspeed compared to most classes since its a dark blue skill making us unable to catch any kiting professions.
same as we would be sitting ducks to any rooting / snaring profession.

as i said earlier on. rage is fine as it is, its a nessecary tool for enfs to eb able to actually do ANYTHING in pvp.

Just to point out, since you brought up Shades and Keepers, debuffs and since we're talking about NR here, snares/roots/nukes don't just hurt casters like Enforcers you know. Sure NSD won't hurt them, nor will Crown of Frost or inexps or Dominates, but guess what, drains land plenty more on them than they do on you, blinds (assuming no 110% resist) lands plenty more on them than they do you, not to mention NR debuffs land easier, they have less runspeed and NR checking perks land -way- easier on them than they do you.

Again, not saying Rage needs a nerf, just pointing out that a lot of the debuffs that hurt your casting, land waaaaay easier on the professions that are also affected heavily by them (blinds, drains, roots they can't remove with one nano cast, etc). Spatial might as well be as much a non option for Shades and Keepers too, which while nerfing them as far as crowd control goes, is absolutely nothing like the nerf they'd both get if they started sinking perks into SD.

We'd kill to have a tool that could negate all but one root in the game and every snare, to be honest and I bet Shades feel the same way.

[Moonbolt]

i have said it in other threads tho but i guess ill have to say it here aswell.. CC shouldnt be spammable or lst several minutes as it does in AO.
its a pretty damn stupid game mechanic to completly immobilize the opponent and i do think that FC realise this, thats why they have implemented stuff like spatial dissplacement and blind resists etc.
i agree with u that having to sink perks into spatial is not fun for anyone and tbh i dont think it should be needed.
remove all roots/snares from nano skills and make them 5 sec duration 1 min recharge perks or w/e, but for a ranged profession being able to keep a mellee profession rooted / snared so we are unable to get in range is probably not even fun for the ranged person since its a guaranted win and thus not a game, just a supid chain of pressing a few buttons and watching pixels.

[Hacre]

i have said it in other threads tho but i guess ill have to say it here aswell.. CC shouldnt be spammable or lst several minutes as it does in AO.
its a pretty damn stupid game mechanic to completly immobilize the opponent and i do think that FC realise this, thats why they have implemented stuff like spatial dissplacement and blind resists etc.
i agree with u that having to sink perks into spatial is not fun for anyone and tbh i dont think it should be needed.
remove all roots/snares from nano skills and make them 5 sec duration 1 min recharge perks or w/e, but for a ranged profession being able to keep a mellee profession rooted / snared so we are unable to get in range is probably not even fun for the ranged person since its a guaranted win and thus not a game, just a supid chain of pressing a few buttons and watching pixels.

CC is neither spammable nor does it last for several minutes in a combat environment. They last several minutes if you don't pack FM stims, Alb stims, or in the case of every root/snare bar one, Rage.

Your wish to see CC nerfed into absolute oblivion represents a -very- one sided argument, coming from an Enforcer, the melee toon who is only beaten by Advies when it comes to ignoring CC tools. If CC didn't exist:

NTs wouldn't kill a single melee toon, or escape from one.
Crat pets would be utterly worthless as people run in circles being not hit by them at all.
Fixers would be at the mercy of anyone with low checking perks, NTs and anyone with MR perked.

That's just -some- examples off the top of my head and I'm tired. I'm sure other CC users could stomp on this suggestion even more.

CC is something most can just shrug off, with perhaps the exception of Shades.

[Moonbolt]

CC is neither spammable nor does it last for several minutes in a combat environment. They last several minutes if you don't pack FM stims, Alb stims, or in the case of every root/snare bar one, Rage.

errrrr with ql 275 FM stims i need 4 FM stims to remove 1 specialized burden. that is 20 seconds rooted with FM stims. wich leaves plenty of time to get 3 CBs in and refresh the root - all at a saef distance.

Your wish to see CC nerfed into absolute oblivion represents a -very- one sided argument, coming from an Enforcer, the melee toon who is only beaten by Advies when it comes to ignoring CC tools. If CC didn't exist:

yeah i agree with u that rage is a great nano when it comes to help me keep moving.

NTs wouldn't kill a single melee toon, or escape from one.

NTs realy arnt the glass cannons anylonger that u trying to come off as. NTs can kill w/o having to root their opponent. they got plenty of defence with the dmg to nano and absorbs and high def they can get.

Crat pets would be utterly worthless as people run in circles being not hit by them at all.

since this is talk about after balance patching where FC has said they will fix runspeed and kiting issues in game i dont realy see the problem tbh. and crats have their root procs that would prevent that aswell.

Fixers would be at the mercy of anyone with low checking perks, NTs and anyone with MR perked.

fixers are the ones that can evade MR if they got CiB up and tbh a 80% checking perks wont help when fixers on occasion resist my 50% checking perk so this is yet another false statement.

CC is something most can just shrug off, with perhaps the exception of Shades.

most people can shrug roots off if they have either spatial dissplacement, is an enf or if they got same range as the rooter.
yet good fixers, crats, NTs and so forth can be very hard opponents w/o rooting someone

[Hacre]

errrrr with ql 275 FM stims i need 4 FM stims to remove 1 specialized burden. that is 20 seconds rooted with FM stims. wich leaves plenty of time to get 3 CBs in and refresh the root - all at a saef distance.

Spec Burden is 4 minutes 48 seconds in duration, needing 3 ql 275 FMs not 4. A QL 275 FM takes off 120s of Root. You're thinking of QL 200.

You don't have any -skill lock in your equipment? Surely given how crap the Infantry left hand is, you'd have an implant there with Fast Attack, First Aid and -Skill Lock, no? No? That's a shame. Perhaps you should. I have 2.5s between my Free Movements. More classes have -skill lock on symbs or implant it, than don't. FYI if an NT is refreshing a root on you, they're not doing any damage. Each of those CB casts has a chance to break the root. Hello, if you're going to start preaching about the apparent follies of crowd control, at least make sure you're fully aware of all the facts at hand, not just the one sided and misguided ones that you feel hard done by.

NTs realy arnt the glass cannons anylonger that u trying to come off as. NTs can kill w/o having to root their opponent. they got plenty of defence with the dmg to nano and absorbs and high def they can get.

You do realise that the high defence NTs get, is against ranged, or more specifically, dodge ranged, yes? This also assumes that the target can be blinded. When was the last time you couldn't perk an NT? I thought so. Does it take more than 25s for an NT to kill you? Yes? Well then there's no magical damage to nano shield, nor ammo with which to nuke/root/debuff you with afterwards. Absorbs? Oh you mean the wonderful 1334 point absorb we have, that has a 4.6 second recharge, that's gone with two hits from you by the time the recharge is up?

So, assuming we have these crappy 5s roots you're suggesting...

Melee professions are -not- people we want anywhere near us, because more often than not:

They don't miss regular hits (absorbs gone)
NTs are lucky to break 16K HP in a useful PvP setup, so regular hits matter
ALL can perk us unless we have 250+ evade and aad towers AND we're solitus with Sphere AND we land Dazzle with Lights and that only, so far in my experience, affects MAs. This is a 15s duration, by the way. Easy to spot the debuff, your attack rating drops, easy to spot Sphere, it has a nano effect.
Melee perk alphas, when they land, puts us in alpha range, so NBG is a must cast. Which means the fight needs to end in 25 seconds.

Can I kill a Keeper in 25s? Nope.

Can I kill an Enforcer in 25s? Nope.

Can I kill a Melee Advy in 25s? Nope.

Can I kill an MA in 25s? Yes if they're low enough HP, my MoR is up and they don't interrupt my casting (which in mass PvP they do, because I can't afford to lose 125 NCU to an NCU coolant sink. Duels are a different story, but in mass, nope) which means I'm restricted to Doubles only, as Red Dusk screws me out of IU and SI so against good MAs, I need at least 2 CB casts as well if their NR attack is up. Plenty of time standing still which means I am going to want to be under NBG since they can catch up to me in the time it takes to cast CB, since it's cast capped. Which means before they're even debuffed, they can start perks. I'm not even taking into account SA/AS swap here, currently.

Can I kill a Shade in 25s? Not if I can't root them because their alpha will drop my nanopool in the blink of an eye and they have stuns which if my MoR isn't up, they will stun me, causing more delay in casting.

Now lets move on to ranged classes an NT might need to root.

Traders, GTH lands, if I don't want to die my option is root before my nano is gone and run for the hills and hope the Trader doesn't remove it quickly via root removal nano and follow me quickly.

Agents, they can also remove roots and good ones can pose -quite- the issue for NTs. 50/50 fight at -best- assuming the very best of each class, so not including skill here.

Engineer. If an Engineer is in range of me it means their pets are in range of me. Unless I rooted the Engineer and he was stupid enough to let me kite their pets away and calm them. Oh wait, in your world I can't root the Engineer and do that. SO if the Engineer is in range of me, their pets are. Remember what I said about good dodge defence? Yeah, doesn't work against pets. Oh look I'm casting NBG again and need to kill the Engineer in 25s. Good Engineers don't die in 25s if Bio Cocoon and Bio Regrowth is up. My only saving grace against them is they're so vulnerable to everyone else, cocoon might not be up and they have lowish HP.

since this is talk about after balance patching where FC has said they will fix runspeed and kiting issues in game i dont realy see the problem tbh. and crats have their root procs that would prevent that aswell.

They also said that professions who benefit from high runspeed via buffs will still be able to. Oh HAI Enforcers!

fixers are the ones that can evade MR if they got CiB up and tbh a 80% checking perks wont help when fixers on occasion resist my 50% checking perk so this is yet another false statement.

IF they have Stance up. That's a very big if.

most people can shrug roots off if they have either spatial dissplacement, is an enf or if they got same range as the rooter.
yet good fixers, crats, NTs and so forth can be very hard opponents w/o rooting someone

No, most people can shrug roots off if they have an MoR, which everyone does, if they have ql 250 albtraum spirit purges which anyone except Shades can reasonably use (you know before I tweaked First Aid on my Keeper, I actually got SFA or Robust Treatment so I could use these, you know, OBs are quite readily available in mass PvP), if they have Rod of Dismissal or the TOTW little brother, if they're Solitus and have Tacky Hack or if they have enough HP to be able to take some damage because that root will break. And it will break.

As for what Crats/Fixers/NTs can do against people they need to root, well we already covered those people are either melee we need to keep out of range, or ranged people we need to get the hell away from.

Crats. No heals, very short term high aad perks, regular hits count for a lot, here and often make or break a fight depending on how many land, because as I said already, no heals, no other form of damage mitigation other than evades. ~3.7k def rating without short SHORT term perks, isn't going to make that many regulars miss against the professions they need to root.

Fixers. Ok, maybe. Congratulations, you found a perhaps among the CC using classes. It puzzles me in fact, why we don't see Fixers crawling all over the Battlestations and mass PvP since they can root anyone that matters and dodge everything from everyone else. HINT: They're not almost extinct just because of NTs.

I already covered an NT's need to root people.

Now. I'm arguing from the point of view of someone who has done their very best to try and avoid CC tools on my Keeper, -and- has experience of trying to deliver CC tools on a Crat and NT. I can tell you that the odds are very much not stacked in the CC casters favour. It never ceases to amaze me how many Keepers do -not- kick my ass just because of how trivial I made roots on my Keeper, 25% innate resist, MoR, alb spirit purges and Rods of Dismissal meant NTs got alphad 9 times out of 10, same with Traders (though when I PvP'd there they didn't have all the new drains, however that's nothing to do with crowd control). Anyone can be free of a root before the root is even recharged, root graft the target and proceed to stomp.

You however, are arguing from the point of view of....an Enforcer, who can laugh off all forms of crowd control except one, from one profession.

I'd drop this now, if I were you, before you're really embarrassed.

You have -zero- clue about crowd control because you can either ignore it, or spam a few FMs, while remaining very much alive, when an NT roots you with an SL root. Which these days, is good job NT, because they've managed to survive standing still for 1s in the face of your immense run speed AND managed to get past your at the very LEAST 20% innate root resist. Not only that you've never used crowd control outside of root grafts.

Oh one more thing. If anyone other than Shades chooses -not- to avail themselves of the plethora of ways in which CC can be ignored, then they're either idiots, or, crowd control isn't the big bad terrible game breaking "write a teary letter home to mommy" issue that you're trying to make it out to be, is it?

The only profession with an iota of room to complain about crowd control, is Shades. You're not one. So shut up.

[Swordbreaker]

My only saving grace against them is they're so vulnerable to everyone else, cocoon might not be up and they have lowish HP.

I must say, having never seen an NT run around alone (in BS), I started to try to avoid them. Getting tripplured after fighting some folks makes for a world of hurt. Especially since they land practically all the time (I have resisted a triple (or was it double) a couple of times, must've been a fluke).