credit degradation: make credits slowly disappear over time

[thecheeseman]

Besides, your suggestion wouldn't remove credits from the trade anyway ... it only affects the long-term hoarding of credits. Which means you are still going to involve credits. And you will always be able to buy low and sell high.

but not in the hundreds of billions. which will fix the game. dont you want the game to be more fun, drhyde? dont you want to help new players?

What you MAY be trying to say is that having credits slowly devalue to a static point somewhere in the future will lower the effect of selling high during the deflationary period. True, overall banks will definitely go down, but the proportional value of the -credit- in the situation will actually rise. Which means as long as you can keep your reserves semi-fluid during the deflationary period and then invest heavily in valued commodities once the deflation has ended.
(which is the long-winded version of what I said in my most previous post).

the value of creds will be higher but the lower the number of creds, the easier it will be to obtain via selling to npc and shops , and trading, for average players.
the rate of cred farming is much slower now than ingot farming and exploits. introducing a tax to get rid of the hundreds of billions and bring the economy prices to at least hundreds of millions is a good step toward reviving the game.

mereditche, please post your suggestion in a separate thread.

[Doctorhyde]

everyone, EVERYONE who has posted knows if items cost 100m to 300m is easier to afford by the average player than multiple billions.

Incorrect. I am in favor of reducing the grind required to get items. I just feel your suggestion is full of lose and will actually make the REAL problem (credit farmers/sellers) worse. There are plausible solutions. Yours isn't one of them.

Most of us wouldn't argue with your fallacies so much if you would quit sounding like a blustering fool who is just trying to overpost everyone to make your suggestion sound better. The louder you yell the exact same crap the stupider it starts to sound. Your reaction is always "ooooh ohh they hate me because they are rich". You're a populist ... and not in a good way. Find ways to logically counter the opposition or accept that perhaps you are wrong.

the rate of cred farming is much slower now than ingot farming and exploits.

True. But is HAS been slower for YEARS. This isn't something new. Comparing against 3 years in the past does nothing to help an argument about the current situation. And your path would make farming MORE prevalent because the return on time invested for pearls/missions/etc would be so much greater.

You don't understand the concept of proportional value, do you?

I'm out ... points were made. You will continue to believe you're right. Nothing will change that. And your suggestion will never happen anyway.

but not in the hundreds of billions. which will fix the game. dont you want the game to be more fun, drhyde? dont you want to help new players?

Populist rhetoric.

mereditche, please post your suggestion in a separate thread.

Cheesey, don't post a thread if you can't handle people replying to it in-kind.

[Sidana]

Other solution, is doing an "unanounced" wipe or changing credit caps on fr00b accounts and orgs to 50 mil or a %-tage on all of us => UNANOUNCED!

Let's pretend for a second that FC is retarded enough to do this move, one question only: what happens wih credz stored in shops? I'm only asking because I have close to 4b in my terminal, and that money is not "mine". Yet. If it is left untouched, well, wipe goes only so far. If it's deleted I can validly complain that FC deleted my items, as I have never ever realized the credz ppl paid for them. (not to mention what happens if I delete my shop and all it's contents are in a limbo until I plop a new shop, at which time I should get all of its contents back)

[thecheeseman]

Why is that? Currency is what people accept as currency. Ancient Mayas were buying slaves for a few cocoa beans a pop.

the only item worth trading is alien armor. ao's currency isnt lima beans and sexy slaves. stop using non erevelent random info.
it will be hard to barter. you get a piece of cc for a piece of css, for example.

This is where formal logic failed you, Mere said rich #2 dumps in 100b extra money in the economy that he was sitting on previously. How is this not equal to the Zimbabwean money prints? (PLUS goods shortage on that, just for fun)

because in real economies money doesnt magically disappear into thin air. the tax goes to the govenment, while in ao the money will just disappear.

tax in a real world is more like org tax, not the proposed vanishing credit tax.

[thecheeseman]

You don't understand the concept of proportional value, do you?

I'm out ... points were made. You will continue to believe you're right. Nothing will change that. And your suggestion will never happen anyway.

youre trying to compare real life economy to a computer game economy.
you admitted to being friends with credit sellers. your reasons for arguing are highly su****ious.
it doesnt matter whether my suggestion will happen or not. i am merely telling truth that if nothing is done, new players dont stay ,the game dies, new engine or not.
frankl im having a great time playing mass effect and knights of the old republic, and i wait eagerly for mass effect 2. im merely trying to save this old gem of a game. if you do not try to make a difference, you lose.

i am trying to bring ideas to help new and average players where you are apathetic to the situation and maybe have a ulterior motive.
if you have a better suggestion please make a new thread.

[Sidana]

the only item worth trading is alien armor. ao's currency isnt lima beans and sexy slaves. stop using non erevelent random info.
it will be hard to barter. you get a piece of cc for a piece of css, for example.

LOL, LOL and LOL. Seems you don't even understand the word "barter", much less AO's economy or, God forbid, real world stuff. Let me please link you one relevant Wikipedia page (I know, it's irrelevant since "it has nothing to do with AO"): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_money

Don't have to read much, just the intro and maybe "Aspects" if it's not "tl;dr". Maybe click on Barter too...

because in real economies money doesnt magically disappear into thin air. the tax goes to the govenment, while in ao the money will just disappear.

tax in a real world is more like org tax, not the proposed vanishing credit tax.

This is so out of context regarding my quote that I don't even know how to respond...

[thecheeseman]

there are no real valuable items in ao to barter other than alien armor. so theres nothing to be gained without using credits.

This is so out of context regarding my quote that I don't even know how to respond...

because i win. you are trying to compare real life to a computer game.
how about this, in real life governments control inflation. i bet you are against credit control in general, and want the trillions of credits to remain in game, for personal gain. do you support inflation control or are you against it?

[Doctorhyde]

youre trying to compare real life economy to a computer game economy.

Because they are intimately related and very much part of the problems that got the game to this point.

you admitted to being friends with credit sellers.

I'm also very close friends with a Christian youth minister, and a group of initiated 3rd degree Wiccans, an admitted killer, a turkish jew living in oklahoma and a bunch of people who would be amazingly shocked to know I know ANY of those people. So what? Oh, guilt by association. Got it.

i am trying to help new and average players where you are apathetic to the situation and maybe have a ulterior motive.

Populism. The first step on the road to fascism. And that's exactly how it works. The trivial parallels between your posts and McCarthyism are intriguing. Care to call me a red?

if you have a better suggestion please make a new thread.

See, that's just it. I'm debating YOUR suggestion. I avoided any full fledged suggestions (and posted in other threads about it). The first sign of a failed illogical suggestion is to get populist and claim you are doing it for the good of all and anyone who disagrees has an ulterior motive (what would mine be? I don't even play right AO anymore ... and I don't dislike you personally ENOUGH to be arguing with you just to annoy you ... since I would have many other threads to do that in). The second sign is to tell people who are disagreeing with you to go somewhere else so you can post in blissful ignorance. The third sign is to let the thread quietly die. Feel free to move to phase 3 any time.

[thecheeseman]

I'm also very close friends with a Christian youth minister, and a group of initiated 3rd degree Wiccans, an admitted killer, a turkish jew living in oklahoma and a bunch of people who would be amazingly shocked to know I know ANY of those people. So what? Oh, guilt by association. Got it.

being friends with a minister or a killer(you are strange) doesnt make you su****ious of cred selling. being friends with "many" cred sellers does.
being friends with criminals will make the police suspect you of partaking in their crimes.

I don't even play right AO anymore.

if you dont even play and dont show support to funcom by subscribing, please dont post on this thread and argue for the sake of arguing. i want to actually help this game.
if you dont play in this game your opinions have no value.

[Mereditche]

But average player has 330m, how are they going to afford something "worth" 550m? No-one will buy it and eventually when the cred-seller needs creds to sell to someone, he will have to sell off the bots at lower prices because no-one will buy them. Rotting armour in your bank is worthless. Also even if he decides to sell off the bots directly, the work required to get 550m credits by selling to shops etc would be ridiculous and he would have to raise the real money price to stupid heights, possibly over $100 for one bot to break even, and no-one but the extreme gamers with lots of real cash will buy it and they dont make up the majority.

On average, wtf mate. Do you understand that you can sell something in that case and you'll surpass that amount? And someone else will have a bit less cause he bought something from you? And people will still have 330 mil on average, even though you have 550 and someone else 110... Then you buy his supple and you got 0 and he got 660. Then he buys your med suit and you have 10k and he 659.990.000.

People buy supple bots now so why wont they be able anymore after 100 bil was added to the economy. Logic?

Yes bigger inflation and no1 will buy the said shortage of goods because the farmer will want more money than people have. Even if a few people who are unusually rich buy a few parts from the farmer, the average person is not going to blow his whole bankroll on one piece of armour and will wait for prices to drop again.

Again, average people pay 500 mill today, why wont they do so after 100 bil is added to the economy?

This is where you dont have quite a firm grasp on economy. Shortage of goods= high demand and prices will "increase" not "inflate", inflation assumes that ALL the money in the whole game has increased for example the Zimbabwe printing of trillions of dollars.

Double effect:
1) 100, 200, 300 billion are added to the economy when cred hoarders get rid of their credits-> this causes inflation.
2) many valuable items will be removed from the market, since cred hoarders now stockpile items instead of credits=> price increase caused by shortage of goods.

Double effect => prices sky rocket. And people will pay those new prices as once the money is actively available it will be used. The fact you don't have money wil not stop those who have it from using it.

Increased prices means nobody can afford it, for now. This means people will just resort to trying to farm their own armour parts or just getting on with life without bothering to farm their full combined sets (you dont need a full combined set to play this game funnily enough). After some time when the farmer who invested his creds into items realises nobody is buying then he will have to start selling at lower prices, this is just logic.

Yes, the farmer bought those items from someone, so someone has the money. The difference is that it's active now. Before it was on an inactive fr00b, now it's on an active player. He'll use the money, he'll even have to since taxation forces him to spend it.

The farmer will not be selling them, the armor is now inactive. He'll only use it if he ever needs some money to buy something. He wont flood the market. Instead of 100 bil being inactive, you have 200 supple pieces inactive. I don't see how this is better for all of us.

[pyhispahis]

because in real economies money doesnt magically disappear into thin air. the tax goes to the govenment.

Yes it does, you do know most of money on earth are actually nothing more than just virtual money that does not really physically exsist anywhere?

[Manaas]

What I want to know is: if you guys aren't hoarding credits for epeen, then how will this even affect you in the long term? You will still have the same proportional creds as before, since everyone is losing at a rate of 10%, this proposed change is only going to affect the hoarders who have amassed billions upon billions (as stated in this thread countless times).

So alien armour thats worth 600m a piece now will be worth 200m a year later, the effort required to get 200m is the same as it was to get 600m, but only now the newer players dont have so much of a gap to cover since 200m is doable without relying on farming bots and camping uniques (which all have people with endgame toons camping them on timers already).

[thecheeseman]

this is because many posters own billions and billions of credits, dislike me because i spoke out against their orgmate for ganking a fellow clan, or just like to troll.

[Doctorhyde]

being friends with a minister or a killer(you are strange) doesnt make you su****ious of cred selling. being friends with "many" cred sellers does.
being friends with criminals will make the police suspect you of partaking in their crimes.

You really ARE going for guilt by association. Nice.

I hereby open myself up to investigation by FC for any level of credit buying or selling. I worked my butt off for what few credits I have ... over years ... and am quite proud of what I did on fairly casual resources while still obtaining the gear I wanted. Feel free to petition me or even toss my name to the exploits mail bin.

If you're not willing to go there, then stop posting stupid accusations.

The only reason I am willing to state that I know credit sellers and the practice of credit farmers is because the friends I had who did it quit long ago (guess why? because FC was able to devalue the value ratio of RL money to in-game credits ... wonder where I get the idea that your suggestion would make it worse again?) and because I know I'm 100% fully in the clear.

if you dont even play and dont show support to funcom by subscribing, please dont post on this thread and argue for the sake of arguing. i want to actually help this game.
if you dont play in this game your opinions have no value.

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. I could do that on any thread. I'm disagreeing because I think your suggestion sucks. If you can't handle a real discourse about a suggestion, then don't post it at all. These are called "forums". Maybe you need to go look up the etymology of the word to see why telling people to leave you alone here is a bit silly. I'll save you the trip ... "assembly, place for public discussion".

Really really really done Banter away. I need to pay some bills.

[thecheeseman]

On average, wtf mate. Do you understand that you can sell something in that case and you'll surpass that amount? And someone else will have a bit less cause he bought something from you? And people will still have 330 mil on average, even though you have 550 and someone else 110... Then you buy his supple and you got 0 and he got 660. Then he buys your med suit and you have 10k and he 659.990.000..

in one month he wil have 600mil. the next, 540 mil.

People buy supple bots now so why wont they be able anymore after 100 bil was added to the economy. Logic?.

people will always be able to buy supple bots. its just the price wont be as extreme and drive away new players.

Double effect:
1) 100, 200, 300 billion are added to the economy when cred hoarders get rid of their credits-> this causes inflation..

in one month only 270 billion remains. the next, about 240 billion. a huge loss, no?

2) many valuable items will be removed from the market, since cred hoarders now stockpile items instead of credits=> price increase caused by shortage of goods...

they have nothing to gain, other than being weirdos who like to hoard on a computer game

I need to pay some bills.

perhaps by selling creds/gold/mesos? i find it weird of you to mention paying your bills for apparently no reason, other than to hint that you sell/buy credits.

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. I could do that on any thread. I'm disagreeing because I think your suggestion sucks..

ok.

[Manaas]

On average, wtf mate. Do you understand that you can sell something in that case and you'll surpass that amount? And someone else will have a bit less cause he bought something from you? And people will still have 330 mil on average, even though you have 550 and someone else 110... Then you buy his supple and you got 0 and he got 660. Then he buys your med suit and you have 10k and he 659.990.000.

I dont really see your point.

People buy supple bots now so why wont they be able anymore after 100 bil was added to the economy. Logic?

Because in order for the cred seller to make a profit, he has to charge people MORE than he bought them for...what do you think cred sellers are? Some kind of loan company without interest?

Again, average people pay 500 mill today, why wont they do so after 100 bil is added to the economy?

So you're saying a cred seller will buy and sell for the same amount, lol good one.

Double effect:
1) 100, 200, 300 billion are added to the economy when cred hoarders get rid of their credits-> this causes inflation.

Yes it does.

2) many valuable items will be removed from the market, since cred hoarders now stockpile items instead of credits=> price increase caused by shortage of goods.

Yes it will

Double effect => prices sky rocket. And people will pay those new prices as once the money is actively available it will be used. The fact you don't have money wil not stop those who have it from using it.

People won't pay the prices because they know the tax system will even out the amount of credits in a few months. Then this forces the cred sellers to lower their prices and therefore make a loss, which then means they leave the game since there is no competitive market for cred selling anymore.

You're talking as if the tax system magically goes on hold when the cred sellers release their creds into the open..

Yes, the farmer bought those items from someone, so someone has the money. The difference is that it's active now. Before it was on an inactive fr00b, now it's on an active player. He'll use the money, he'll even have to since taxation forces him to spend it.

Taxation doesn't force anything, since an average player will spend what he needs to spend it on. Tax will just cleanly take the extra creds hes not spending and remove the exploited and ingot creds from the game. There will be impatient people who instantly buy as much stuff as they can with their newly found creds, but then that doesn't stop what he buys from being worth less (in terms of amount of creds) over time.

The farmer will not be selling them, the armor is now inactive. He'll only use it if he ever needs some money to buy something. He wont flood the market. Instead of 100 bil being inactive, you have 200 supple pieces inactive. I don't see how this is better for all of us.

The farmer wont be selling them? LOL. Do I need to give you a detailed outline on what cred sellers do exactly? I would have thought it would be obvious by their name.

Cred sellers have to have CREDS to SELL, in order to make money. They also have to make a PROFIT so will SELL at a higher PRICE than he BOUGHT them for. This is basic economy even a primary school kid could understand.

[pyhispahis]

New players do not need full set of AI armor / best weapons available to do the PvM content in this game, theres decent armor that can be acquired for zero credits that will do very good in PvM.

Im not super rich in this game, nor does it bother me some people are. If theres an item i need, i either go farm it with friends or go farm something else i can sell so i can buy the item i need.

A new player can farm 10m credits from missions and then start multiplying that 10million by buying low and selling high from players to players. If they feel like they need to have the absolutely best gear available..

Theres alot more important issues to fix than credits in this game, like more noobie friendly lower level content.

[thecheeseman]

Theres alot more important issues to fix than credits in this game, like more noobie friendly lower level content.

there wont be any new players because they are driven away by massive credit inflation. it turns the averge gamer, who are normall people, off.

New players do not need full set of AI armor / best weapons available to do the PvM content in this game,

who are you to decide who needs which items? new players cant use alien armor? only veteran pvper twinks? alien invasion content, which we all pay equally for, is reserved for the very rich and few? that is very elitist of you to say who deserve what item and who doesnt.

[Sidana]

there are no real valuable items in ao to barter other than alien armor. so theres nothing to be gained without using credits.

Sure, anythin else, from Infusers to RBP are worthless piece of garbage, so I'm sure your problems are mostly solved, since the "only valuable items" ingame can be now farmed by anyone who can fork up a little advance for buying a city. You said it, anything else is worthless.

how about this, in real life governments control inflation. i bet you are against credit control in general, and want the trillions of credits to remain in game, for personal gain. do you support inflation control or are you against it?

There's no need for combat inflation as there was literally no inflation (on RK2) since the ingot nerf. So what to do with the ingot/sploit credz? Either remove them like Mere said, or leave them be and hand out STUFF instead of credz to newbies, so they get used to doing things for stuff instead of grinding credz. That simple, really. (and how about this: no government want to get ri of inflation, because no inflation means no profit means no growth)


I have to immortalize this here too, tho!

This is so out of context regarding my quote that I don't even know how to respond...

because i win.

[thecheeseman]

trying to grab onto anything that i say to discredit me is showing you have something to lose, and have a hidden agenda. perhaps youre one of the many friends of drhyde?

There's no need for combat inflation as there was literally no inflation

robust backpack (which needs to have droprate increased) costs 1.5 BILLION. cities cost MULTIPLE BILLIONS. alien armor cost 1.5 BILLION PER SET.
credit inflation has destroyed the game. no one lvls past 60 because they cant afford anything and get ksed when they try to get it themselves.

you are a liar and a slanderer.