Friday with Means - July 3rd, 2009 - German Server and AO Learning Curve

[Menzagitat]

[...]Thank you all for reminding me why this effort is worth it and why we will continue to do it every week...even if I have to use my phone to do it!

Have a great weekend!
__________________
This "Means" Cake
Game Director

"I killed my boss and all he dropped was an iPhone..."

Means is using loot in his job!

[Mastablasta]

I think it's a mistake not closing that server and letting people themselves answer whether or not to have their server merged for the good of all.
Of course germans will say "no, we don't want to play on any other server", you should've included the question "would you play AO if you could not do it on a German-language server?", as that's the more interesting thing to know rather than "would you rather play on a German speaking server than an English speaking server?"...

Germans don't speak English well in general, and it's a well known thing around MMOs that they also build their own communities within the games, like the french and spanish who are also very poor at English in general. But obviously they understand English well enough to play the game in English.
They also had no problems being a part of the game before a special server was made for them, why wasn't one made for the french at the time? Far as I remember some of the biggest and organised player groups were french and german...

I guess if the server is earning its keep, then there's no real reason to close it right now, other than the fact that the international dimensions would become more populated, which overall would be a good thing, as there's not much of any wait-in-line content anymore. Of course, having a 3rd server grow in population with new sponsorship programs would be beneficial, but is the german speaking market for AO, now and in the future, really large enough to warrant having an isolated server? Indeed, can an un-translated AO compete with other, newer MMOs that are translated to German?
I think such questions are far more interesting for the future development than whether or not germans want to play on a German speaking server or not... the outcome of which questionaire should be pretty much unsurprising, it seems odd to me that you should not know the predisposition of germans toward German content. Germans in general even PREFER movies dubbed in German when given the choice between dubbed or not!

[Menzagitat]

[...]

Mastablasta, you are a heretic.

[zartosht]

like the french and spanish who are also very poor at English in general.

Burn!

Plus, there is also a fair share of English and Americans who are also poor at English.

[Nosgoth]

Masta, I disagree. I'm German and I know English very well, so do many other Germans. Even the movie example isn't too good. Would you like to watch a German/French movie in its original language when reading/writing French or German is easy for you, but talking/hearing those languages is a lot harder? I like to watch movies in their original language if i'm able to properly understand it (Monty Python... German translation is lol, English original is wtfhilariousomgzorsrofl!!!1!), but even if many Germans are able to write/read English, they aren't able to understand it properly when spoken.

[Alternity]

I think it's a mistake not closing that server and letting people themselves answer whether or not to have their server merged for the good of all.
Of course germans will say "no, we don't want to play on any other server", you should've included the question "would you play AO if you could not do it on a German-language server?", as that's the more interesting thing to know rather than "would you rather play on a German speaking server than an English speaking server?"...

Germans don't speak English well in general, and it's a well known thing around MMOs that they also build their own communities within the games, like the french and spanish who are also very poor at English in general. But obviously they understand English well enough to play the game in English.
They also had no problems being a part of the game before a special server was made for them, why wasn't one made for the french at the time? Far as I remember some of the biggest and organised player groups were french and german...

I guess if the server is earning its keep, then there's no real reason to close it right now, other than the fact that the international dimensions would become more populated, which overall would be a good thing, as there's not much of any wait-in-line content anymore. Of course, having a 3rd server grow in population with new sponsorship programs would be beneficial, but is the german speaking market for AO, now and in the future, really large enough to warrant having an isolated server? Indeed, can an un-translated AO compete with other, newer MMOs that are translated to German?
I think such questions are far more interesting for the future development than whether or not germans want to play on a German speaking server or not... the outcome of which questionaire should be pretty much unsurprising, it seems odd to me that you should not know the predisposition of germans toward German content. Germans in general even PREFER movies dubbed in German when given the choice between dubbed or not!

We have Project Transfer on RK1 currently, I've been active in helping along side my Org and other Orgs. The language barrier is nonexistent tbh, some speak and write english great, others use a 3rd party software to translate and behold they mighet get better at it.

Project Transfer is in all regards a perfect example, of the fact that German players can both live and thrive on our two other servers.
Yes it takes some effort and determination, and yes if takes some dedication from the respective servers to help these "new" players.

They have a choice, either remain on a server with dwindling numbers, or forgo their all German server and become part of a larger community.
Don't try and instill the Germans often manical behaviour towards "German" content, several MMO's have loads of German players, and I don't see any integration problems there.

[Toyhazard]

So only 53% wants to stay on RK 3, anything gonna happen or made possible for the people who want a transfer or are still undecided?

53% isn't an overwhelming majority but just over half of the population.

[Inovaye]

No merge, no transfer. I like DNW how it is and would prefer to be able to continue playing on a German server. - 53.65%

Merge with RK1 or RK2 - 19.88%
Free transfer to RK1 - 6.59%
Free transfer to RK2 - 5.17%
I am undecided - 14.71%
[/B]

This was of course the most important question. All concerns and suggestions aside...what did the general population really want? The overwhelming majority of players on DNW want to remain a german population on a german only server. This means we need to work towards a more populated DNW without destroying it with character transfers or server merges.

That sounds quite stupid. I excpect something else when I hear of an "overwhelming majority" (only half of the players do like RK3 as it is and the other half wants a solution for the problem... now!). I am not willing to pay for another year just because it might be possible that RK3 might see better days. When you think it's better to wait for new players, rather than helping the old ones, then I'll cancel my account until it gets much better.

I really like (...or liked before NCU window and stupidly overpowered nanos and stuff) this game (especially for PvP), but the content is unplayable on RK3 as you aren't able to find any teams for anything that is older than 3 months. Because of that most toons are just tl5 twinks nowadays, though it's even on that BS hard to find at least 12 players (I thought AO is a MMO...) that want to fight with you (there are only 1-5 rounds per day).

[Sturmfaust]

We were talking about this yesterday in org chat.

I think its about time to boost RK XP.

I think this would really help making "new players" stick around.

I mean, lets face it. Back when we started RK had players. You could find teams and actually feel like you're headed in the right direction. If RK mobs shared the same XP as SL mobs, I think the results would be RK slowly coming back to life with new players.

People will still go to SL, when they are ready. But if I started this game today as compared to when I did in 2002, I'm pretty sure I would have never renewed after the first 30 days since the first impression is RK, and ATM its dead...


We all know hecklers were never intended to be farmed. But thats been the reality for years now. We need to stop that. When I think of leveling in AO, I think of killing the same rocks over and over, then doing the same inferno mission over and over (which I never got to enjoy, it was hecklers for me). How many Halen Van Dummy's do we need to kill?

I would gladly do RK missions if they offered the same XP. Or hell, I'd kill Cyborgs, Rhinos, theres so many amazing hunting spots on RK, its a shame.

Or hey, make an item that can be crafted called "Deja Vu" that can be worn. It would convert XP to SK. All this would pull current players to RK, where NEW players start off. Teams would be going, chat channels would be active. A lot would happen.

We dont need to merge servers. We need to repair the game to make it more interesting to play for lower levels/new players.

[Mastablasta]

Burn!

Plus, there is also a fair share of English and Americans who are also poor at English.

Never said there weren't, it's just fact that those countries are large enough, Spanish even being a worldlanguage, to not bother too much with proper education in the languages.

Masta, I disagree. I'm German and I know English very well, so do many other Germans. Even the movie example isn't too good. Would you like to watch a German/French movie in its original language when reading/writing French or German is easy for you, but talking/hearing those languages is a lot harder? I like to watch movies in their original language if i'm able to properly understand it (Monty Python... German translation is lol, English original is wtfhilariousomgzorsrofl!!!1!), but even if many Germans are able to write/read English, they aren't able to understand it properly when spoken.

Oh, there's lots of germans who speak English very well, I'm sure. However, there's far more who don't. I've visited Germany often enough, it being only about 150km from my door, to know that finding someone who speaks English at a level where you can have a meaningful conversation is hard. Chances are I'll find someone who speaks Danish before I find anyone who speaks English well enough to transfer a real meaning.

Not sure what you're actually trying to say with the movie stuff, I have a group of german friends and a friend who visits her boyfriend in Germany constantly, and everyone in that circle, aged 16-30, prefer dubbed, and apparently none of them know any who prefer undubbed. If there was no one who wanted the dubbed stuff, they wouldn't keep dubbing everything and show dubbed versions in the cinema...

I personally, as well as everyone I know personally, both danish and from the other scandinavian countries, prefer undubbed. I can't say a single sentence in Japanese or French, or Spanish or Chinese, but I prefer to see any movie or cartoon or whatever from those, or any other nation, in their own language, and not dubbed to Danish or English.

[JazlynKeppler]

[...]I am not willing to pay for another year just because it might be possible that RK3 might see better days. When you think it's better to wait for new players, rather than helping the old ones, then I'll cancel my account until it gets much better. [...]

So you cancel if no merge or transfer comes. And I cancel if a merge or transfer comes. Sounds fair to me. Get the point? Don't forget that the survey only covers half of the active players.

[Mastablasta]

We have Project Transfer on RK1 currently, I've been active in helping along side my Org and other Orgs. The language barrier is nonexistent tbh, some speak and write english great, others use a 3rd party software to translate and behold they mighet get better at it.

Project Transfer is in all regards a perfect example, of the fact that German players can both live and thrive on our two other servers.
Yes it takes some effort and determination, and yes if takes some dedication from the respective servers to help these "new" players.

They have a choice, either remain on a server with dwindling numbers, or forgo their all German server and become part of a larger community.
Don't try and instill the Germans often manical behaviour towards "German" content, several MMO's have loads of German players, and I don't see any integration problems there.

If you read my entire post you'd note that I refered to the time before DNW, when the germans were part of the everyday population. I have no doubt at all that germans will work fine with other players and even find the means to communicate if they have trouble doing so, though it tends to be less a problem in a game that is largely in English. However, the moment you give them the choice between a German server and English servers they, as is shown, jump on the German server.

I'm glad to hear that someone is putting an effort into helping RK3 players transition from their previous server to the active dimensions. However, I also understand very well where people who don't want to lose their character and all their progress and memories on that char, and leave it buried on DNW. Char transfers would be preferable.

[Mastablasta]

So you cancel if no merge or transfer comes. And I cancel if a merge or transfer comes. Sounds fair to me. Get the point? Don't forget that the survey only covers half of the active players.

Why will you cancel though? What are your reasons? I'm sure we'd like to hear some.

[SoldiTwo]

I guess as a german I can answer some of your questions.

... "would you play AO if you could not do it on a German-language server?" ...

No I would not, simply because as you stated there are many other MMO's nowadays that are 99% translated - even AoC is translated to german.

Germans don't speak English well in general, and it's a well known thing around MMOs that they also build their own communities within the games, like the french and spanish who are also very poor at English in general. But obviously they understand English well enough to play the game in English.

The whole World is poor at English, except US/UK etc.?
Well I guess that's just a common prejudice.

Back then when AO launched in Germany there weren't many competiting MMO's so it was 'OK' in english. I believe today as a newbie, it is a bit of a problem.

Indeed, can an un-translated AO compete with other, newer MMOs that are translated to German?

... the outcome of which questionaire should be pretty much unsurprising, it seems odd to me that you should not know the predisposition of germans toward German content. Germans in general even PREFER movies dubbed in German when given the choice between dubbed or not!

That's really funny, why on earth shouldn't someone NOT prefer content in his native language?

BTW, there are good and bad synchronizations. For example South Park is way funnier in english than in german, because some text/meaning is lost in the synchronization and because sometimes it sounds as if the speakers where forced with a gun to syncronize it.

Lastly even our fellow US ppl watch syncronized movies, cartoons anyone?

[Ornaola]

At some point, whether it is level 2 or level 200, players will look around and be stunned by the sheer complexity of AO. This is part of what makes AO the game that it is. AO is a game for a specific kind of person. Removing this complexity would remove a large part of what makes AO the amazing game that it is. Players return to AO specifically for the complexity and level of character customization.

So true, glad you see it too

[SoldiTwo]

I personally, as well as everyone I know personally, both danish and from the other scandinavian countries, prefer undubbed. I can't say a single sentence in Japanese or French, or Spanish or Chinese, but I prefer to see any movie or cartoon or whatever from those, or any other nation, in their own language, and not dubbed to Danish or English.

Is danish that bad? I for one like german, imho English sounds a bit cooler - but german is a cool language too.

[Inovaye]

So you cancel if no merge or transfer comes. And I cancel if a merge or transfer comes. Sounds fair to me. Get the point? Don't forget that the survey only covers half of the active players.

And for what reason? AO becomes a MMO again? Or are you just one of the other xenophobic persons?

I cancel because of the low playerbase. I don't care how they solve the problem but I'm not paying for an unplayable game, when I know that it even becomes worse in 1 or 2 months.

[Mastablasta]

The whole World is poor at English, except US/UK etc.?
Well I guess that's just a common prejudice.

That's really funny, why on earth shouldn't someone NOT prefer content in his native language?

BTW, there are good and bad synchronizations. For example South Park is way funnier in english than in german, because some text/meaning is lost in the synchronization and because sometimes it sounds as if the speakers where forced with a gun to syncronize it.

Lastly even our fellow US ppl watch syncronized movies, cartoons anyone?

I'm not a native English speaker, but my English is generally better than native speakers it's different from country to country what level second or third languages are at. German I'm rather poor at myself, but I know enough to get around if you don't speak too fast.

Why you would prefer something not in your own language? I don't know. Personal preference. I don't like content in my own language. Books are the only thing that forces me into choosing a translated version, but most I own are in English. I don't like The Sims being translated to Danish, I don't like cartoons on TV being translated to Danish. I don't want movies or cartoons dubbed, I want them in their native language with all the emotion and care that the original actors put into their role, not some second rate voice actor who makes the whole thing sound flat and boring.
The same thing is true for every other creative outlet. Such as a game like AO. The creators thought up the descriptions in English, with an English mindset and the dialogue was written in English with English in mind. Translating creative things like this make it sound forced and uncool. LIke, listening to my german friends talk about their playing World of Warcraft "ja, mein zauberer ist sehr über" ... wtf? Culture differences. You grow up in a culture where everything is available in your language. I grew up in one where the minority of everything was translated and I prefer the original voices and text for everything, in so far as I can understand it or be given the means, like subtitles, to understand it.

[Grim-One]

Dealing with the AO Learning Curve. This may already be posted somewhere.
Wouldn't a set of guide books that were spawned into new players inventory after they talked to Brandon Thorn or Scientist Drake Rodriguez help?
Some books for general knowledge (Implants Are Your Friend) and some profession specific ones (Living in the Shadows - Life of a Shade). It might take up inventory space till they get their backpack, but at least they would read them in most cases and get some idea of how things work in this game.

[Mastablasta]

Is danish that bad? I for one like german, imho English sounds a bit cooler - but german is a cool language too.

Danish isn't bad. It's a nice language for every day use in Denmark. But, voice acting is an artform and it's not one that's really practiced many places outside of Japan. Japanese voice actors are extremely talented, why I would never watch animé dubbed if I could in any way avoid it. In the large productions, like Disney movies, they use talented actors for the voices and money is spent on making them sound well and convincing. However, for the saturday morning cartoons or TV series or whatever, it's just run of the mill 9-5 work for the involved.
I have been able to watch German TV channels always, and whenever you clicked by a german channel, you see american actors speaking with the voice of some german voice actor, whose voice is not properly integrated with the audio of whatever it is and you can hear that he's just yet another guy doing voice acting because it's steady work... horrible. I'm sure my german would've been better today if german TV had something interesting on there and not just dubbed versions of shows that I could watch in their native language with subs