A different thought...

[Antimony]

I believe there is a serious imbalance in the game, but it has little to do with FC's current or future patch releases.

Essentially, everything in AO is for sale - items, lootrights, tradeskills, buffs, even people. Some players are so unbelievably rich, that it is easy for them to obtain everything the game has to offer anytime they want it. Others, who are not as fortunate or business savy, have to struggle just to get a second-rate setup. Let's face it, if you don't have creds, AO can be very frustrating!

Best example is 150-174 Battlestation - some people have spent billions twinking their toons while many others run around in predator armor (or equivalent). Even a good PvPer cannot compensate with his skills for such a big difference in equipment. The twinked toon wins, plain and simple, as we can all see that happening over and over everyday.

What is true for pvp, is also true for pvm. The closer you get to 220, the harder the mobs will hit. The better (and more expensive) your setup, the more likely your survival. If you die a lot and can't keep up with the other players on your teams, you will soon find yourself camping lft - because nobody wants to team a gimp (of course, nobody will actually come out and say that openly, they just won't send an invite).

So, if I would have to give advice to a new player today it would be this:
Forget about the gameplay, forget about the different professions and races, forget about equipment, and especially forget about PvP - just make credits any way you can and don't stop until you have a few billions. Then start playing the game for real!

Keeping this in mind, any change to professions, nanos, perks, equipment and gameplay that FC has made (or will make) matters very little unless the economy gets a serious overhaul, because those with money will still completely dominate the rest.

DDH

P.S.
Before I get any flames, I'm not critizing anyone for having credits and using them (I do the same myself), I'm just trying to draw Funcom's attention to the bigger picture.

[Slowness]

Ibtl!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BEAST]

I would have to disagree with you, but dont have time to write marathon posts. So I'll try to keep it short. Yes, money=power in AO , but everyone has worked their asses hard for that money. It's just a matter of time - in AO time is converted into credits that buy you equpment (alien armor), in WoW for instance time is converted into nodrop (soulbound) items (tier armor) *and* money. So, wherever we look, money will dominate. Even in games with too much nodrop items.

[Koizumi]

Happen to know this dude?

[Kalitus]

A friend of mine started playing some months ago, he is not playing too often (once or twice per week)

He has a doc lvl 120 und an MP lvl 99 and has an bank account of about 40,000,000 Creds.

All he got from me was 500,000 Creds as starter bonus. His Chars are fairly good equiped and no way gimpy. One reason is that he does not powerlvl (the faster you lvl the fewer money you have). Everyone is able to make creds very fast in this game!

[Canibaal]

well making credz in this game aint a big deal....i can give ya 100's of ways to make cash =) .....i will just point out some most comon methods :

1. sec 10
2. AI raids

i personally got 150 enf to solo ground AI raids....1 out 5 raids....i get some worthwhile bot to sell....anyways crus arent issue anymore after sec 10 started dropping it like apples

Other popular methods are :
3. Symb pattern hunting >>>u just have to know which mob drops wat patterns and wat symbs can possibly drop from those PBs and just chk gms for uber costly symbs and hunt those patterns for mob details u can goto ao.pocket

4. Infero dynas or any dynas for that concern
5. Roll nanos/grafts/buffing armor/tradeskill items/ncus (best if ya got fixer)
6. provide services like TOTW/IS/Foremans
7. sell lootrights to nodrop items.
8. the latest and one my coolest way to make cash is to sell LE nanos....i play mostly in BS on both my 220 keeper and 150 enf and provide LE nano service as a side perk over BS fun^^

Cmon guys i can give alot more ideas but these are few most common and reliable ways......but my lunch time is getting over so laters

GOGO MAKE CASH BUY AI STUFF /prostrate against LOSSSSERS who keep whinning=) they just dont realise the rich dudes have to work their ass off to make that cash and ofc u need some common sense lamo

[Ayria]

I can personally (and recently) attest to the money making methods of S10.

When some new org mates (not new to org but mates new to S10) were heading there I figured, hey I'll take my little adv twink and help em out. Well after they left I just sat there at the beginning and farmed. It was late at night and I had little competition, came out of there with 40m from the bounty items.

When I soloed ground raids I came out with hundreds of millions of credits.

Credits aren't hard to make. I used to think so; but then I realized what I was saying was difficulty was actually my laziness and desire for things to come to me. Now I may be broke from time to time, but I know that if I really need money, I can get it.

Other then that, follow Caniball's post on how to make money and you'll do good

[Achknan]

This is my money making.

AI raids until strong/supple drop. Overprice on GMS (sometimes people buy) until I really need cash, then go Shopping Channel and underprice it and get at least 180m just with a *snap*!

It's fairly simple, it only takes the minimum of dedication

[Lorddarcek]

alot of dumb people here....
why cant u let people find out on their own how to make money?
thats supposed to be one of the games fun stuff...
people wanting to make money can search the forums and sites...theres enough guides out there already...

people who dont want to read forums or AO fan sites or make an afford shouldnt be fed info ....

All your doing is spoiling people enjoyment plus helping lazy people that otherwise would leave the game(goodriddence).
they will just stay and continue bothering the hard working ones...

[Mekh]

...snip...
people who dont want to read forums or AO fan sites or make an afford shouldnt be fed info ....
...snip...

The people who don't read forums won't see this thread anyway....

[BEAST]

Oo

There are already lot of guides on money making on this forum. So why is this particular thread problem?

Btw, I don't think OP wanted this to become "101 of AO Moneymaking"

[Reids]

Best example is 150-174 Battlestation - some people have spent billions twinking their toons while many others run around in predator armor (or equivalent). Even a good PvPer cannot compensate with his skills for such a big difference in equipment. The twinked toon wins, plain and simple, as we can all see that happening over and over everyday.

My crat beat an NT in arith whilst i was in a bikini on BS and like ql 100 imps (no-one else attacked him, was all me!)

[Xtremtech]

Hmmm...

First - the difference between decent spend and massive spend on a PvP character isn't necessarily as wide as you seem to think. Really weak characters who haven't set themselves up at all for PvP will tend to suffer badly on BS.... but they can actually spend a relatively small amount of money (or effort) to bring themselves much closer.

The reason most PvM characters struggle is that they haven't put in the basic work to make themselves reasonable in PvP. It's putting in the effort and getting some base knowledge that's the major factor, not price.

Second, BS offers the best opportunity at present for new PvPers to get some experience in teams. A new-ish PvPer in a team with other more experienced PvPers can have somewhat weaker equipment set-up but have his weaknesses at least partially countered by their buffs and strengths.

So a character built for offensive PvM play tends to let defence, healing etc slip because in PvM the tank takes the hits and somebody else is healing just in case. That defensive weakness is deadly in PvP but can be augmented by auras, team buffs, team healing, root removals etc.

Between a decent spend, some energy put into finding upgrades and a little help from your friends, you should be able to get to some decent PvP play without great expense. You won't be top of the hill and you'll still die a fair bit - but you won't totally suck either.

X

[Antimony]

I suppose it was bound to happen that people miss the point - my post was NOT about money making, it was about how the economy imbalances the game. I really don't care how hard everyone worked for their credz or what cred-making schemes they use - more power to them, I got a few B's myself, thanks.

Fact is, creds are more important then levels, skills, quests, loot and everything else in the game. With enough creds, you can simply buy all these things. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I doubt that FC wanted AO's primary goal to be money-making?

Maybe the reason why we constantly see these "creds for real cash" spammers on the shopping channels is because people have realized that AO is just about credz? These spammers wouldn't advertise all the time, unless they know they can get plenty of customers - thats a simple lesson of (RL) economics. Before anyone gets this wrong again - I do NOT encourage or condone buying creds for real money - its illegal, enough said.

But let me ask this: if it's so easy to get a full AI Armor set, full set of symbs, plus all the hud/util goodies by Titlelevel 5, why doesn't everyone in BS have that stuff? Since its so easy to make the necessary credz, why is it that you have a few people dominating and a bunch of others just being slaughtered, making the whole experience kind of boring (except for the ones doing the slaughter of course, but even that gets boring after a while as I found out)?

Following the logic of the responses to my initial post, all these people must not know how to make credz and therefore don't really deserve to play AO, correct?

Again, I would like FC to think about a serious overhaul of the economy, because I believe that this could balance the game (more then any new nano, armor, perk etc. could ever do) and make AO more enjoyable for all of us.

DDH

[Talita]

I think the only way this would happen, is if they made more items no drop and put the creds cap lower and I don't think this game needs neither.
Just my opinion.

T.

p.s. Players have a choice wheather to pay the high prices, if noone did buy at those prices, the prices would drop, it's the players in the end who make the econemy not FC.

[vigoron]

come to rk3, we got the cheap stuff

[Xtremtech]

if it's so easy to get a full AI Armor set, full set of symbs, plus all the hud/util goodies by Titlelevel 5, why doesn't everyone in BS have that stuff?

Ummm perhaps you've just missed the point of the game... which is that you get these things yourself with team-mates. The basic premise of the game is not that you buy them, but that you go out and interact with the world and other players in it in order to acheive your goals. Nothing should be stopping you from doing that without needing to shell out mega-millions.

Indeed, many would say that people who get around having to acquire these things themselves by buying them are missing out on a big portion of the game. In practice, the ones who can afford to do this are usually the players who have already taken a character or two through the major content and make money for their alts with their mains. That's quite reasonable really and it doesn't stop others from getting their own stuff by winning it rather than buying it.

Second thing you've missed seems to be that the vast majority of players actually focus on team PvM - certainly at levels below 210 and probably higher still. The need for powerful offence and defence against widely varying tactics is much, much lesss in PvM, so many characters on going to BS will find they're unbalanced - not primarily because of lack of access to better equipment, but more because their character has not needed that equipment before in team PvM.

It's not so much that they need money to improve their characters but theat they need to build their characters differently and put some effort into getting what they need. But it's quite possible to build decent PvP characters without having to resort to buying it or camping mega-rare stuff. They won't be top of the pile but they'll be pretty good.

Those players who already have strong experience from their mains will be able to kit out their characters extremely well because they understand what is needed and understand where their effort needs to focus and what tactics they can and can't use. Their money makes it easier to access stuff for their alts and they can get top of the line stuff... but the top of the line stuff generally produces relatively fine differences compared to a decently equipped character built with knowledge and experience behind it.

The biggest difference is their knowledge and character building experience. Their money is not really the primary divisive force between the very weak and the good in PvP.

X


P.S. The major AI armour has TL6 requirement so I'd doubt whether every TL5 player on BS has it....

[BEAST]

Well, one of the most idiotic aspects of this game (imo ofc) are mobs on timer in the wild, where anyone can camp them. Imagine if this was *real* mmorpg, with 10k + players on server, and only one poor creepy spider with his Slippers of Screaming and his 30 minute timer. This is just bad game design, having timed mobs drop phats (and item is phat becouse there is no better in it's class, so people want to have it - everyone wants best stuff). This creates uber inflation. No small wonder people e-bay credz. Just look at Sparkling Scimitar of Spetses. Yes, it is good item, but not that good to be worth 3b+ (and I heard one was gone for 9b before LE).

If one player can make monopol on one item for 1k+ players (and i've seen it done, talking about Rimor) by just knowing timer and first firing FA , than it is bad MMO desing. If one player can create his own inferno camp squad and create monopoly, again it's bad desing. If this game tends to be serious MMO, stuff like this woudnt be possible. This is one of the reasons why economy is so screwed.

On the other hand, really promising concept was introduced with AI raids, and with Albtraum, Alaapa and DB. No timers, no spawn camp idiotism, just get team going and try to make cash. Ai raids are still not best concept around, but much better than timed mobs.

[Mekh]

I think the only way this would happen, is if they made more items no drop and put the creds cap lower
...snip...

How would lower credz cap lower prices????

If the credz cap was 60mill, I would just have to have 10 mules and would have to do 10 trades in order to get my CC armor piece... Thereby inviting even more possibility for scams.

If the credz cap was 10 Billion it would not result in a CC armor piece costing 6000mill all of a sudden.

Just think about the two sentences above a bit... If your creds cap was increased would you suddenly feel some kinda mysterious urge to pay more for the same items, considering the supply would be unchanged and you would not suddenly automagically earn more credits/hour, just because there was a higher creds cap?

Creds cap have no impact on the prices imo... Supply and demand do however...


With regard to the OP:
I can perfectly follow him, and I do also understand and agree with his concerns, but I can't really see any viable way to fix it, without:
1. Introducing more nodrop items and such.
2. Introducing some effective credits sinks, that would help with keeping the inevitable inflation back (imo)...

@1: This goes against what I think is a vital concept in AO.... The ability to trade allmost anything, and make credits from it in order to purchase other stuff and so on... In general I dislike the nodrop items concept.

@2: This would in my opinion be the best way to do something about it.... and there's been made many good suggestions with regard to this issue already in numerous other threads.

[BEAST]

Ummm perhaps you've just missed the point of the game... which is that you get these things yourself with team-mates. The basic premise of the game is not that you buy them, but that you go out and interact with the world and other players in it in order to acheive your goals. Nothing should be stopping you from doing that without needing to shell out mega-millions.

If goal is to interact, why arent those items nodrop so I can "enjoy" interacting with world by camping mobs with 30+ people that need them and hope that me or my team will somehow OD them? Much easier to resell some stuff and buy everything I need.

Indeed, many would say that people who get around having to acquire these things themselves by buying them are missing out on a big portion of the game.

Yeah, they are mising some !timer 30 or !timer 540 action. Great loss. I much more enjoy raiding, pvping or doing something constructive then spawn camping timed mobs hoping for item to drop (and we all know how crappy droprates are).