New weapons #2

[crattey]

I'll do one better:

This message is hidden because Ragetra is on your ignore list.

[Ragetra]

would ignore you too if i wouldn't have any arguments left

[Ragetra]

Actually I think the next point would be, what difference would being able to land Champion of XXX perks make for a crat; they're hardly badass.

4 perks+burst+fling(+ a maybe crappy as from onehander)>a single as possibly do 30%

[No4Sniper]

ill just say this

docs and fixers already got viable pvp weps

[XenonDe]

ill just say this

docs and fixers already got viable pvp weps

Care to elobarate what makes you think so?
Just curius if there is any other point beside "Fixers have a 90s recharge FA that will mostly miss evade toons" and "Doctors get a 1000 wtfpwnbbq dot that does 250 more damage per tick then they get without their weapons, and the weapons won't hit".

They are good Weapons but the pvp factor is either limited, or in case of the doc pistols it's not from the weapon.

[Kinkstaah]

Care to elobarate what makes you think so?
Just curius if there is any other point beside "Fixers have a 90s recharge FA that will mostly miss evade toons" and "Doctors get a 1000 wtfpwnbbq dot that does 250 more damage per tick then they get without their weapons, and the weapons won't hit".

They are good Weapons but the pvp factor is either limited, or in case of the doc pistols it's not from the weapon.

Because it is unrealistic to expect your weapons to inflict massive damage on all targets. If you want a 10s FA that always caps and a 10s AS than always caps then your evades should be *zero*.

It's called balance people. The hawk is devastating when timed and used correctly. If it's so crap - Don't use it and see how you go, I am thinking you will notice a difference in your performance.

Doc pistols shouldnt necessarily be the prime form of attack. Doc offence isnt exactly that horrible compared to their defence, which is definitely quite extreme vs almost <-- any single lone attacker.

And even if they are - Why should docs get massive offence? They can still be extremely viable PVP characters with *NO* offence, its probablya decent argument that a doctor who has NO offence is a better PVP toon than one who attempts to use offence, simply because the first doctor is using their doctor to heal opponents which makes more difference to the overall outcome of any fight.

[Togafix]

I like your sig kink

[Ll4m4]

To recap

Do
Give professions without viable pvp weapons new options (Engineer, Crat, doctor, fixer, ranged adv)
Make these weapons speed-cappable.
Make these weapons equippable by professions who need them.

First I don't understand why fixer is in this list, they have something close to the best defenses ingame and have a really decent offensive toolset, same goes to ranged advys in a lesser measure.

But instead of giving more offensive powers to the others, that so called support profession, I think it would be much more interesting to give them a real toolset to be effectively support professions in PvP and have some usefull CC abilities, for example calms working in PvP disabling a player for a shorter time than in PvE, something like -3000 AR for 10s for example if a complete incapacitation would be too much, breaking on damage and appliable only on one target at once, or fear nano lines becoming usefull... I'm sure plenty good ideas could come up if this direction would be digged a bit

[crattey]

[QUOTE=Ll4m4;4923910]
But instead of giving more offensive powers to the others, that so called support profession, I think it would be much more interesting to give them a real toolset to be effectively support professions in PvP and have some usefull CC abilities, /QUOTE]

I agree. Hasn't happened over all these years though, they've only been nerfed over and over again. Rather than relying on FC to come with new PvP mechanics, it's easier to just ask for them to let us use excisting mechanics. The method excists, and it's effective if we are given the proper tools to use it. Problem solved.

[IHaveHugeNick]

Balance? What balance?

30% cap and everyone being generally stronger and more powerful and tougher to kill is something support proffesions have to struggle to kill ALONG with having evades, reflects, absorbs and all other forms of defense nerfed to hell. So we have to run around having nerfed both defense and offense, while combat proffesions get boosts to power EVERY patch, and you call that balance? That's not balance, that bulls**t.

[XenonDe]

Because it is unrealistic to expect your weapons to inflict massive damage on all targets. If you want a 10s FA that always caps and a 10s AS than always caps then your evades should be *zero*.

It's called balance people. The hawk is devastating when timed and used correctly. If it's so crap - Don't use it and see how you go, I am thinking you will notice a difference in your performance.

Doc pistols shouldnt necessarily be the prime form of attack. Doc offence isnt exactly that horrible compared to their defence, which is definitely quite extreme vs almost <-- any single lone attacker.

And even if they are - Why should docs get massive offence? They can still be extremely viable PVP characters with *NO* offence, its probablya decent argument that a doctor who has NO offence is a better PVP toon than one who attempts to use offence, simply because the first doctor is using their doctor to heal opponents which makes more difference to the overall outcome of any fight.

I don't expect my weapons to do massive damage. I was first and foremost attacking his single line. A simple "Don't do it, cuz i heard you shouldn't" doesn't work. Actually I don't have a TL7 fixer, just a TL5 fixer twink that prolly is a completly different story, so I am speaking about the receiving end of the fixer alpha. The BS is to fast paced to make the most use of their fa, it often doesn't even cap on my doc, and their onehander AS only does 1k damage most of the time thanks to crit reduce. They can cap points given the right circumstances but fixer are still extremly vulnerable to the right tools.

I kind of agree about docs focusing on healing, and it's what I mostly do. In fact it's what most docs do and I allways find it funny when soldiers and agents complain about not getting doc heals while the doc is kiting with 2-3 omnis on their tail chainhealing himself and not being able to use any offense anyway.
The Pistols still are not a viable "pvp weapon". I like to hurt opponents sometime too, the dot is a nice thing that gives pvm weapons some pvp use, but it's certainly not a viable pvp weapon when we can't hit anyone with it. Your argueing docs don't need offense, I disagree there to some degree. If your calling the pistols pvp weapons I'll just have to laugh.

[Ll4m4]

Balance? What balance?

30% cap and everyone being generally stronger and more powerful and tougher to kill is something support proffesions have to struggle to kill ALONG with having evades, reflects, absorbs and all other forms of defense nerfed to hell. So we have to run around having nerfed both defense and offense, while combat proffesions get boosts to power EVERY patch, and you call that balance? That's not balance, that bulls**t.

hint: FC already stated that PvP would be never balanced 1v1, it is just too difficult if even possible to achieve, so the role of support professions is to assist "combat" professions in killing people, not to be the ones who kill. Seems to me most support professions had decent stuff added to their toolset with LE and after (new MP debuffs, traders drains, crat stun proc...) ofc they are not gonna kill someone by themselves but can really change the outcome of a fight. If you play a support profession and want to kill stuff just reroll a combat one, end of story.

[IHaveHugeNick]

hint: FC already stated that PvP would be never balanced 1v1, it is just too difficult if even possible to achieve.

This has nothing to do with support proffesions.

so the role of support professions is to assist "combat" professions in killing people, not to be the ones who kill.

No, role of support proffesions is to engage the enemy using toolset other then just direct combat.

. If you play a support profession and want to kill stuff just reroll a combat one, end of story.

If you want someone to just follow you and debuff your targets, roll a support proffesion on another account and keep it on /follow.

[crattey]

hint: FC already stated that PvP would be never balanced 1v1, it is just too difficult if even possible to achieve, so the role of support professions is to assist "combat" professions in killing people, not to be the ones who kill. Seems to me most support professions had decent stuff added to their toolset with LE and after (new MP debuffs, traders drains, crat stun proc...) ofc they are not gonna kill someone by themselves but can really change the outcome of a fight. If you play a support profession and want to kill stuff just reroll a combat one, end of story.

Don't be an idiot. Do you really think any profession will be satisfied with standing behind those real 'combat' professions, pressing Q, hoping a stun proc fires? We pay the same monthly fee you do, we should get an equal share of the fun in PvP. Currently, the CC profs' (NT, MP, crat and trader) is worthless. The only functioning part is GTH and look at that, everyone is crying about how it is too powerful. The other CC tools don't work. NTs got turned into a 'one button to rule them all' prof. MPs are now a blokers prof with AS. CC doesn't even factor in anymore. I'd like to see them fix us too, rather than making us a CC prof without functional CC.

[Ll4m4]

Do you really think any profession will be satisfied with standing behind those real 'combat' professions

Most docs do that all the time, why would they be the only ones? In PvM when a team recruits a trader or a crat for example it's rarely for their own damage but rather for their aura... why would it have to be different in PvP?

[Hacre]

Most docs do that all the time, why would they be the only ones? In PvM when a team recruits a trader or a crat for example it's rarely for their own damage but rather for their aura... why would it have to be different in PvP?

You have a point, BUT, while I have considered a similar view myself, support profs still need improvements in PVP. If you want to RP it, even an office worker can pick up a pistol and put some holes in someone. Support profs should at least be able to put decent holes in people while keeping them crippled via their "Support" toolset. Currently there's lacking in both areas to differing degrees depending on prof.

You use PVM as a comparison to validate the "Support" expectation you have, well hey, Support professions can perk mobs, their pets are effective versus mobs...so surely that aspect should carry over too?

[Mostadio]

Because most of the support prof auras/debuffs simply don't work in PVP.

[crattey]

Keep in mind crats aren't a support porf. That definition also includes every single DD. Everything is support; healing, CC, DD, etc. Crats are a CC prof. Most every game I played, CC profs are very powerful if played right. Warlock anyone? Mesmer/necro anyone? Etc, etc.

Virtually every game allows CC profs to use their CC tools in PvP. Roots are borked. The only melee class that has a small excuse for being rooted is a keeper, and even they should reroll if they stay rooted for more than a few seconds. And even then, keepers can be virtually immune to roots with little effort, they just sacrifice some of their survival/DD for it. Enforcers have high NR and can instantly rage out. MAs, keepers have SD. Shades can go NR or train SD. Every class but doctors can deroot them selves. Good thing thy have MoR, Tacky Hack, stims, rods, HUD/Utils items, etc, etc, etc to break roots. If all else fails, the root will break in a few seconds anyway as it has a 21% chance to break on attack.
Mezzes? Calms? Fears? Charms? We all have those, but their function in PvP is limited to use pets. Luckily every pet prof can instantly unmezz/snare/root/calm their pets. Fears don't even have a use in PvM, much less PvP.

[Escritores]

Grenade with AS

Just had to: Lol...

[Fifty50]

First I don't understand why fixer is in this list, they have something close to the best defenses ingame and have a really decent offensive toolset, same goes to ranged advys in a lesser measure.

Long time since u been playing? Played a TL7 fixer lately, or at all?
Reason I ask beeing ofc your statment about fixers, and the fact that all the links in your signature are dead...

What u say is pretty much how it was, half a year ago.

Since then AR has been increased dramatically for all proffesions, this have had massive effect on the defence of fixer, in fact all evade proffesions. And more so for the less healing of the evade dependant professions.
So Advies & keepers, no worries - massive healing.
MAs got some good on-demand healing, but slow recharge.
Fixers got HoTs, these heal a tiny little fraction (2%?) of your hp every 5-10 seconds, but since damage is dealt in large bulks in PvP it is far less effective than on-demand healing.
Crats nothing afaik, Shades drains I rly dont know..

.. So from big to small defence nerf by increased AR: Crat/Fixer/shade/MA
And lets just leave the loverchilds out, they have healing skill enough to benfit from high hp (Keeper/Adv) and does not depend on evades to stay alive.


Next there is offence. With the reduction in the max % of ur HP any attack can do, from 40% to 30% effectivly nerfed the alpha of a fixer. Now u need to cap x3 and then some to kill anyone before they can heal, coon, etc.

Try doing that with AS that works 10% of the time, burst, and FA once in a blue moon. Yes there is perks, but 30% of 24k hp is 8k, and those perks dont hit for nothing like that in pvp, maybe even combined..

Another change to further devastate fixers are the abunadance of new crit reducers, since craphander is crit dependant, guess what? It is now even crappier. You need an ellts (2billion credits) and all the crit increasers u can find to make it viable at all.

But then again, we should probably be using the top notch guns designed for us instead?

The lovely two-handed ql 300 Hawk mk 6:
ok, so 8sec Burst, 90 sec FA? and perks. I assure u I would be very surpriced if a fixer manages to kill any proffesion with that gun. Assuming comparable setups.


Do you see now how practically every game mechanic change FC have implemeted, is a kick to the groind of fixers, crats, etc..
So yes they should be on that list.