Question to Funcom: Why can't MOBs play fair?

[Jayde]

I've talked to a lot of people regarding this issue before posting about it, and I've yet to find a single player who doesn't find it either annoying or distressing: MOBs don't play by the rules.

Here are the biggest issues...

1) MOBs use unrealistic weapons with high minimum damages. All MOBs use this same set of uber-weapons, with little to no variation at all.

I was playing a a level 55-62 group and we tackled a level 65 mission. We totally wasted the mission, taking down every enemy within a a couple seconds. (The team conisited of: MA, MP, Advent x 2, NT x 2) That is, until we got to the boss room...

Following standard boss room behavior, we took out the minons first. (3 giant spiders, which caused quite a bit of lag issues and kept people from boss teleport zoning very well, BTW) Those were fairly easy, and we actually killed all 3 of them before the boss got un-stuck from his corner.

Then, suddenly, the MA goes down. Then the other Advent goes down. All the rest of us quickly warp back up... The boss had killed BOTH of them in a matter of seconds. How? He was hitting for a MINIMUM damage of 235 points. (We know that because, despite our varying AC's, it was always the same. We all had Wilderness Protection and decent armor.) Now, keep in mind that this is a mission of level 65. Nobody in the team (which all are staunch Body Dev. maxers) had over 1,400 HP. How, when I boss with a fast pistol hits for a 235 minimum (600 crit) there is no way in hell we could have beaten it with our otherwise strong team. The boss was just TOO STRONG. There is NO weapon in the game that is THAT strong as to have a 235 point minimum damage.

The boss example is a drastic one, but it applys to all MOBs in general. Their "custom" weapons have absurdly high minimum damages--most likely to prevent OEing of armor to keep people from rendering them wusses. However, with the new OE changes, do we really need this any more? Seriously OEed armor will be gimped, and people with high AC *deserve* to get some kind of benifit from it.

All my armor is within a few levels of my own (and none of it OEed with either buffs or implants) and I usually have no use for either a helmet or my Senpai Coat. My AC is high enough as-is to knock just about everything but a deep red MOB down to minimum damage. This is really, really stupid.

It is also very, very BORING. This is a game with thousands of weapons...why can't MOBs use random weapons? Of course, we know the answer to this...most weapons SUCK. Of course, if it's good enough for the players, it should be good enough for Funcom's MOBs, ne? I'd personally like the mix up of some enemies being wuss, and the next (exactly the same) enemy being tougher. Variety is good.

2) MOBs ignore range. MOBs ignore walls. MOBs ignore space in general.

Funcom's already addressed this, saying that "root and shoot" is not in their magic ball of what they want for the game. I ask, why the HECK not? Is it not a viable PvP tactic? Is it not a viable tactic emplyed BY MOBs on PCs? Why, exactly, are PCs gimped so that they can't take advantage of *tactics*? Is it so wrong to ad an element of strategy to the game?

It goes beyond roots, though... Short-range MOBs can hit you from anywhere if they feel like it. They ignore the likes of walls or other obstacles that may be in the way. They ignore any concept of "range". I think they use the following command:

/set range LengthOfMobius

Of course, this goes yet a step further... The almighty MOB teleport effect. I guess the game currently has a routine something like this:

if(MOBStuckSeconds => 2)
/warp %t

I have seen MOBs climb sheer cliffs, I have seen them walk through walls, I have seen them instantly teleport over large bodies of water, I have seen them walk through walls, and I have seen them perform a number of otherwise impossible feats.

Sorry, but this is unacceptable. If we have the play by the rules, so should they. WE can get stuck at the bottom of an incline and get shot at like fish in a barrel, why exactly can't we employ the same tactics? Either that, or give us the almighty /warp %t command to even the odds.

If I find a high tower to stand on, and have a weapon with long enough range to shoot all the way down...I think I deserve to be able to waste the enemy. Sorry, but it's true. If that were a MOB on top of the tower, it would be able to waste me unscathed--why the double-standard?

3) Balance is screwed because of PvP, so...

...why not make MOBs more like PCs??

PvM play is constantly getting screwed over by attempts at PvP "balance." In this case, why exactly can't Funcom make MOBs more like PCs to allow the same balance issues to work "as intended"?

Why don't debuffs affects MOBs? They should. MOBs can use debuffs on us... Why do MOBs have infinte NP? Certainly a Doc shouldn't be able to full-heal forever...that's absurd.

Making MOBs "play by the rules" and act like PCs would actually make all the attempts at PvP balance WORTH SOMETHING in the PvM realm. MOBs have unrealistic stats in every way, and are quite unbalanced because of it. When Funcom modifies PvP balance, and nerfs something, it may "fix" PvP, but it continues to widen the gap in PvM.

4) So, with OE checking and crit buff control, do we really need MOBs to be so uber?

I don't think so, myself. I think MOBs should play 100% by the rules. Right now, Funcom wants battles to be nothing more than a statistical game--no strategy, no advantage for doing anything other than getting the biggest, most uber team ever and packing them with enough OEed firepower to kill the MOB before the MOB kills them.

At the moment, all it has become is a match of statistics. May as well just auto-battle for us. (Better yet, we can all cancel our expensive AO accounts and play ProgressQuest-http://www.progressquest.com/ instead!) As it stands, if a player uses any kind of ingenuity to attempt to gain a slight advantage, Funcom's code goes:

/say OMG!!! HEZ EXPLOITING!!!!11@@@1!!
/set CritChance 80
/set Range LengthOfMobius
/warp %t

Sure, Funcom has done all this because they probably think the game would be "too easy" otherwise... Who cares? People will level, one way or another. And there are PLENTY of easy ways to gain XP as it is. This game is about having fun for most people, and not about sheer XP. If someone finds a cool place to snipe, so be it--at least it gives a reason to have long-range weapons. (*ahem* Agents rifles are worthless *ahem*)

As was nicely said by someone a while back, MOBs aren't paying to play the game. Who cares if they die? Give people XP not just for being uber, but for playing smart too. (Of course, if that was the case, they may have made tradeskills a worthwhile source of XP. Heh.)

MOB balance is silly right now, and would really be better if it were changed. People should be awarded for having some kind of strategy, and not just engaing in a gussied-up calculator battle.

Comments are welcome...but I have the su****ious feeling that everything is "working as intended." *L* Oh well... I guess Funcom doesn't consider the fact that what they intended may not always be the best way to do things. =)

-Jayde

[Aristaeus]

1) Mobs used the same weapons as players. Until FC decided that it was to unbalancing since it caused a huge variation in damage that mobs did. So now every mob has a weapon that at min does mob level + damage enhancers in damage. To get it at min you need to have at least the same ql armor as the mob is in level.

2) Part of this is lag

3) This is a bit unrealistic. Unless you want players to duplicate the behaviour of mobs to bring down the single ability that stands way above what mobs can achieve. So a bit stronger is needed to compensate for the lack of real intelligence. I do agree that mobs should actually stop using nano's if hit with an unmake,plunder and divest (Seen that happen) combo instead of happily dominating my poor doc. And the same goes for the well of endless nano that these mobs seem to carry around.

[_________LordMaxwell]

Funcom should hire whoever wrote the Path Finding algorithm for Dungeon Siege. That guy was a genious!

I was upset at the bad path finding in EQ, but it beats AO path finding with both hands tied behind it's back. Warping is pretty rare in EQ, but very very common here. (Mostly shooting a mob across a large body of water in EQ will result in a train of Doom when he finds his way around...)

Well, path finding is about the only thing EQ beats AO at in my book, but it's still problem.

Look at Dungeon Siege: I stand on the roof of a six story tower, I click on the ground outside. My party of 8 runs down all the stairs, navigates around obstables, never walking through each other or a monster while also keeping in the designated formation. They never ever get lost and take a very good approximation of the shortest route to the destination.

Why oh why can't path finding be like that in mmorpgs? Why do pets have to get lost the second they see even a small rock on the ground?

[Mysticknight]

because your pets cant step or fly over that rock

[Jayde]

Well, path-finding is certainly one of the root causes of the #2 issue. Problem is, AO assumes that once an enemy can't get to you after x amount of seconds that it MUST be stuck due to path-finding issues. Thus comes the /warp command and *poof* there they are.

No thought is given to the fact that the enemy may just not be ABLE to get to you in your current location.

This isn't a lag issue, it's really a pathing issue...

Go to a city with a tall tower or something...Bliss works nicely. Head to one of the edges, and you should be able to target at MOBs outside the city walls if you have a long enough ranged weapon. (A 30m rifle, or a 28m Vektor works fine) Give the MOB 3 or 4 hits at best and not only will the walk right through the city wall, they will magically appear right next to you. (Thus walking through 2 layers of walls AND teleporting 25-odd meters straight upward.)

Sorry, but that's really, really screwed up. ^^;

"1) Mobs used the same weapons as players. Until FC decided that it was to unbalancing since it caused a huge variation in damage that mobs did. So now every mob has a weapon that at min does mob level + damage enhancers in damage. To get it at min you need to have at least the same ql armor as the mob is in level. "

Yeah, I'm aware of this change and the reasoning behind it...I just think it needs to be changed back.

Huge variation in the damage they did? You mean...kinda like the huge variation in damage WE do? (Or, at least, anyone who wields one of the plethora of 1-xxx damage range weapons?)

If I have to watch my damage go:
12, 15, 6, 65, 34, 112, 21, 8, 14, 83, 42, 24, 102

It would be nice if MOBs had a little more of a damage range. =P

Especially when you consider that MOBs have a lot more HP for AC for their level than a comparable PC.

-Jayde

[________________Deep]

I think there is a good reason why mobs are so overpowered in relation to PCs.

Their AI is horrable beyond belief. Now, if the AI was good you would have a very strong case, but since it can be abused like a red-headed stepchild it should remain the same.

For instance, I can stand in a differnt room then a monster. I can see it through a door and look right at it. It never notices me. I can send my pet in, and it starts the beat downs and still the monster doesnt notice me (although on RARE occasions it will). If I have line of site across 2 rooms such that I am standing in room A next to a door, and on the other side of room B, a monster in Room C walks by a door and opens it, I can nuke them and they will NEVER attack me.

If I attack a monster in a room, and there are monsters in neighboring room they very rarely ever help.

Enemy casters (like nano-teks, crats, etc..) Use weapons most of the time instead of thier nanos. I almost never get a debuff cast on me in dungoens with the uncommon slow and root (which are worthless spells inside and almost worthless outside). I never get anything that lowers my Time/Space by 50 pts or Debuffs melee attack ratings, etc..

However, there is one fair thing funcom should do, and that is give pets the warping ability. At times I have been low on health and run through like 10 rooms at odd angles trying to get out. I go past desks and tables (the bane of the pet user) and still when I run to the exit the enemies are right there in my face in seconds. To be fair pets should have this same warping ability.


-------------------------------------------

Should monsters ever have thier AI improved, I do think they should be limited like players too. They should just have an IP limit allocated to them. Not everyone should have max Combat skills, Nano-resist, running, dodges, nano-skills, and everything else under the sun. A Thug should not resist spells as easily as a nano-tek and a nanotek shouldnt be shooting an assault rifle at me.

[_____________Venekar]

I agree with just about everything that Jade has stated.

[Jayde]

Not to discount your opinion, Deep, but you're an MP... MP's are possibly the most "balanced" class at the moment, and have enough balance that mobs shouldn't be such a big trouble for you. I have an Advent and an Agent, however, and my Agent can barely solo 50% missions as it is. There is no benifit for an Agent's "long range" attacks, which is what prompted me on to this subject...

Classes like Agents, or perhaps a trader with a Vektor, are supposed to have "long range" weapons. Unfortunately, since range means nothing to mobs there is really no benifit to a rifle over a pistol aside from how close you have to be for the very first attack. An Agent can't snipe from a bell-tower, for instance. Unless you count one gimped Aimed Shot as a snipe, then watching the walking enemy magically appear up with you and beat the tar out of your pathetic Agent body. =)

This goes beyond class balance, though...and extends to fun-factor, IMO. I've played this game for a good, long while...and the battles are beginning to become tiresome. There's just not enough *there* to keep things interesting at the moment. I'm fine with the game being mostly a statistical sparring-match, and not a completely action-oriented system like Phantasy Star Online or something...but SOME level of inaction would be nice.

Right now, placement doesn't matter at all. A MOB can warp around whenever it wants, it can hit you when you're running away and it's nowhere near you, they can walk up and over walls whenever they feel like it, etc... There's no advantage to being crafty with your placement as to just running up to point-blank and hitting Q.

Also, Deep... I can't say I share your experiences at all. MOBs always aggro me via LoS through an open door. I've also never managed to shoot or otherwise attack a MOB through an open door without aggroing it. (In fact, doing so almost always aggros every enemy in the room if there are multiple.) I'm not sure how aggro with pets work in that regard, but it certainly doesn't apply to non-pet classes. I get a "free hit" once in a blue moon...and every 50 or so mission I see an enemy that actually gets stuck and doesn't warp around--but it's certainly not the norm.

-Jayde

[Kuro]

You can't use the pet pathing found in single player games with multiplayer components as a comparison point for MMOGs. Games like Dungeon Siege allow the pathing to be run on the client computer and CPU.

This would be an amazingly dumb thing to do on in MMOGs because it would leave the game vulnerable to pet's classes/professions direct memory hack exploits.

That being said, I played an engineer waaaay back at release. my comment back then when asked why I stopped:

I can't tolerate an alleged pet ally dumber than the mobs I'm supposed to shoot

[Mysticknight]

Jade My MP at 85 was soloing lvl 120 missions
none of my other toons can even compete against that
no twinking on any of them
MP are not balanced their UBER
back on topic
send in attack pet with healing pet to heal it at the eye camp north of the 20k OP, go stand near the guards but not close enough to draw guards.wait for pets to die instant mobs warp to where you are

[_________________Zuh]

Solution: make all the mobs played by PC ARKs!!!!


lol

[_________LordMaxwell]

Originally posted by Kuroshio
You can't use the pet pathing found in single player games with multiplayer components as a comparison point for MMOGs. Games like Dungeon Siege allow the pathing to be run on the client computer and CPU.

A more fair comparison might be to single player RTS games. (I know that Age of Empires allows only 3 tries at path finding for each unit. Which is a really, really low number of tries.)

But something is very, very wrong with Funcoms path finding. It doesn't beat EQ, and being a newer game it should beat it hands down. Even publicly known path finding routines beat EQ. (A* comes to mind here.)

Either the algorithm is wrong, or the representation is wrong. (Ie, it doesn't understand the shape of the table correctly.)

As most of the problems are in missions it's pretty easy to fix, you can put in heuristics for paths for all rooms. (Hand make a path from each door to each other door in all rooms. In the small and tight rooms being on this path will take your pet into contact with an enemy, in big rooms they don't get lost near as often and can leave their railroad tracks.)

And warping is unnecessary, if they can't get to you, then have them run away. (Social and aggro monsters running away could be exploited though, as they could be used to tear through another group...) But it still makes more sense, if he can't get to you on the tower he can run out of range.

[Aristaeus]

I thought you meant by Mobs ignore range the fact that melee mobs seem to whack you from 20+ range.
If you root those they tend to move until they are next to you. But even then you need to move from one side of the room to the other to avoid getting hit, extending melee range from +-2 meters (those enforcers seem to be using spiked 2by4's, 1.2m long+ body reach) to an perceived 5 or 6 meters

[Relarin]

1) MOBs use unrealistic weapons with high minimum damages. All MOBs use this same set of uber-weapons, with little to no variation at all.

Yes, it sucks that I can do between min-max for a weapon with no way to predict my damage output (and you cannot use averages, as the FC randomizer is as poor as UO's...hit low dmg, hit low dmg, hit low dmg, hit high dmg, hit midrange dmg, hit low, hit low...too much streaking of results. The mobs do regular damage (25, 25, 25, 25...y'know, my gun does roughly 11-35, I'd settle for 25 every time, but no, that is reserved for the elite mobs, thanks FC!)

Funcom's already addressed this, saying that "root and shoot" is not in their magic ball of what they want for the game. I ask, why the HECK not? Is it not a viable PvP tactic? Is it not a viable tactic emplyed BY MOBs on PCs? Why, exactly, are PCs gimped so that they can't take advantage of *tactics*? Is it so wrong to ad an element of strategy to the game?

Got to love EVERY humanoid mod knowing either root or slow...but many PC classes NOT having it / not getting it till ridiculously high levels due to skill requirements, title caps, etc.

Of course, this goes yet a step further... The almighty MOB teleport effect. I guess the game currently has a routine something like this:

I have seen MOBs climb sheer cliffs, I have seen them walk through walls, I have seen them instantly teleport over large bodies of water, I have seen them walk through walls, and I have seen them perform a number of otherwise impossible feats.

Yep! In the Omni Entertainment Sewer area, I was shooting at a thug down below in the channel. Next thing I know he's on the bridge, BEHIND ME! Real fair FC, yep.

3) Balance is screwed because of PvP, so...

PvM play is constantly getting screwed over by attempts at PvP "balance." In this case, why exactly can't Funcom make MOBs more like PCs to allow the same balance issues to work "as intended"?

Again, this seems to be the norm in any game that allows PvP. Designers ALWAYS screw over the PvM folks in favor of the PvPer...a group that incessantly moans and whines, even when they get what they want. PvM players, usually, if left alone entertain themselves (Same in UO. Once they gave the PvM folks what they wanted *no PvP world* most of them shut up on the boards and went back to playing. The PvPers whined from release day and are still whining years later. NOTHING short of an 'instakill noob' command and a 'leet title will make them happy).

4) So, with OE checking and crit buff control, do we really need MOBs to be so uber?

No, we don't. They need to enforce the same laws of physics and the same rules on mobs as they do players.

Sure, Funcom has done all this because they probably think the game would be "too easy" otherwise... Who cares? People will level, one way or another. And there are PLENTY of easy ways to gain XP as it is. This game is about having fun for most people, and not about sheer XP. If someone finds a cool place to snipe, so be it--at least it gives a reason to have long-range weapons. (*ahem* Agents rifles are worthless *ahem*)

Well, this goes back to the fact that some people think it makes them less 'uber', though they will cloak it in terms like 'Risk vs Reward' and other assorted BS. If players are having fun and not exploiting, who cares? For most who complain that changes make the game too easy, it mostly boils down to 'What? You got to level X in y time and it took me a month longer? This game's too easy! FC make it harder!' Translation - I'm not as uber as I thought, do something to control this riffraff, FC.

MOB balance is silly right now, and would really be better if it were changed. People should be awarded for having some kind of strategy, and not just engaing in a gussied-up calculator battle.

Doubt we'll see Funcom comment.

Comments are welcome...but I have the su****ious feeling that everything is "working as intended." *L* Oh well... I guess Funcom doesn't consider the fact that what they intended may not always be the best way to do things. =)

Allow me to add a few other things I find unrealistic on the subject of mobs.

A) Nano use. Even if you set the mission slider to 100% physical, damn near 50% of the mobs use nano...and ALL OF THEM know slow/root/poison and use it repeatedly and at a level above their level. And mob healing is FAR too good....I watched a Yellow kill my bot (dark red to me) merely by healing himself....took 30 mins, but with unlimited nano use some healing mobs are unbeatable (Yes, I could have healed the bot, but I wanted to watch what happened).

B) Mob Aggro. Since 14.0, open the door to the main room and engage an enemy...regardless of how far away the others are, all three storm to attack. And sometimes enemies from adjacent rooms. I used to single/double pull (double if I screwed up) them, now at max distance apart, I still get all 3 of them at once.

C) Mob Aggro 2. A pet-class complaint. WTH do non-sentient (read animals) attack the controller of the bot and NOT the bot? How does a creature barely aware of its surroundings realize the guy on the otherside of the hill is controlling the thing that causes pain to them? They shouldn't! Like animals RL, they should be attacking that which is immediately causing them pain, the BOT!

D) Mob Aggro 3. Another pet-class complaint here. Even with the jokes they call agression trimmers, WTH does every enemy aggro ME? I have good armor and nanos...they are NOT going to kill me before the bot kills them. They DO actually have a chance of killing the bot first then taking me out. What do they do? They attack me nearly exclusively, maybe if I use the trimmer they attack the bot once, then attack me yet again. Supposedly intelligent creatures who can teleport and are not bothered by niceties like range and walls when they attack still can't figure out the bot is a greater threat but easier to kill?

Of all the things Verant did wrong with EQ, they at least got the Aggro for pets right (if the pet master is out of range, the mob will 90%+ aggro the pet and stay aggro'd as long as the pet is outdamaging the master. WHen the master steps into range, they re-aggro on the master).

[dammitjanet]

just about everything i ever wanted to say on the subject of gimped agents, you have said over the past few days, eloquently and with much aforethought.

thank you, I agree with every point 100%

a small story about OE

when i started this game, somewhere in beta v11 i think (press beta pass), it was unplayable in the extreme, but i liked it and persevered, so when it became commercially available I started playing it.

its a really nice game, and the liked the idea of the agents, and chose an agent as my main char. everything was going swimmingly until one of the 13.x patches where they beefed UP the mobs because of OE reasons. Ever since then soloing as an agent has been completely and utterly stupid. I had to start to OE just to survive. FC actually made ppl OE to compete with the mobs, not just PvPers.

Now that OE has been dealt a mortal blow, the mobs need to become normal again. please Funcom, make the missions mobs realistic again.