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Thread: PvP - a new direction!

  1. #1

    PvP - a new direction!

    I have been looking to other games to see how they PvP. The sad thing is, I haven't seen one game take a step away from the crowd and actually try to make a PvP system different from other games. It's not that the other games got it right. Heck all of the games have been 100% wrong in PvP so far. Matter of fact, PvP in games so far is strictly based on how LAZY the programmers are. Not trying to flame, but how can you say that making a zone a free for all and letting the players figure out the rules for themselves, is somehow a well thought out PvP system.

    It isn't a thought out system at all. It's bland and predictable, and has been done in every game to date. We need a game that steps forward and trys to tackle the issue of PvP with a REAL system that addresses the players needs and makes them REALLY feel as if they are in a war.

    Let's start off with prolly the most controversial idea in my whole article. That is the elimination of ALL 0% and 25% zones in the game. The reasons for this goes beyond the PvP issue so I'll try to explain why this is a good thing. By te way, that doesnt mean a death to PvP, but only to Ganking as we know it now.

    Benifits of 75% zones
    1. It brings in more players to the game. This is the single most important thing that has kept games going is the company realizing that 99% of people do NOT like to be ganked. In no game in online history has a game been highly successful and succeeded with free-for-all zones. People may play an alternate server for fun but dont like this as only means to play.

    Ultima Online is the Ultimate example of this. For over 2 years they had 1 dimension only which eventually became known as Felluca. ANYTHING was allowed here with no real punishment to the people participating. When Trammel was opened up All the players that had lived to wreak havok on the casual player declared this the death of Ultima Online and the game would go under withen the year.

    Withen 1 year of the introduction of Trammel, Ultima Onlines subcription base went up 100,000 accounts. This was after a year of sharp declines in active accounts. Other factors contributed to Ultima Onlines revival, but this one of the major ones.

    The player behavior clearly showed that most people preferred Trammel and the result was Felucca looking like a ghost town. Most of the people that where left on Felluca side where the ones that owned houses in Felluca, but that only made them migrate from both sides meaning they would only come over to refresh their home or do some macroing.

    2. Removes the worst part of War. Historically the worst parts of war was the complete lawlessness that often occured. From the Looting, pillaging, and raping of complete towns all the way down to the killing of innocent children and women. The truth is, given no retribution, humans would degrade into their worst personalities. This lowering of morals and what not would be a sort of retribution in itself, so that it would look just like the state AO is in now. Alot like the "Old West" days of American history. A sort of informal set of rules to generally get from day to day, but nothing set into stone that would help us really enjoy the game unless we played in the worst possible way.

    3. Allows for the evening out of the zones. Right now everyone is jamming into a few zones creating huge amounts of lag. By opening up these other zones, by increasing the gas percentage, it would allow people to level in other places besides missions. Of course alot would have to be doen in the mean time to fix spawns around Rubi-Ka but it would be a good start. Other things like adding whompas, banks, saves, grids, and everything else that makes up a successful zone. Otherwise you will still have EVERYONE jamming into missions trying to level at a decent rate without worrying about being ganked.

    Like the old saying goes, "If you cant change human nature, then you have to consider changing the rules of the game." So either the gas and missions have to go, or you figure out a new way to make people fight. This often means making changes that would call into question you once believed in. Sometimes though you have to ask yourself the hard questions, or consider continuing to lie to yourself. I myself would rather call into question my beliefs long before I continued on with a system that has been flawed since its inception.


    How would we Fight the war then? Well first have to look what war really is. Is war just fighting or are there focused stratagies, pinpointed targets,meaningful goals,specific and significant battlefields, near unbeatable strongholds, and legendary groups of soldiers? To me war is the latter and not just a free for all in certain zones.

    War can't be boiled down into one aspect of the whole experience. Heck the only game to bring it down into its simplest and most complete aspect is the game of chess, yet no one can claim it is just a simple game. It's far beyond that and that is what AO needs to capture as much as possible.

    Of course it would be near impossible to redesign AO to complete this task, but there are many things that can be done to bring it close to our final goal which is a PvP system which for once in online RPG history has some meaning. Maybe, if we are lucky, the next generation of gaming will glean a little of what we propose here and finally take gaming to that next level.

    So, whithout anymore delays, here is SOME of the ideas I propose and hope you can add more ideas to them to get a better grasp of what needs to be done to put in place an actual system that simulates war as close as possible.



    I really think several ideas need to be discussed at once. Not only the fact it allows for Funcom to choose more than one idea, but also doesnt make us put all of our eggs in one basket. Plus I hate the fact everyone thinks in singular terms. The game should work on so many levels, even if it is essentially the same thing. There should be several ways to PvP, just as there should be several ways to gain experience :O) Anyways here is some of my expanded ideas :O)

    Continued------------->

  2. #2
    The Siege
    In every war there are areas that seem to never get captured or are taken at great losses to both sides. These bases are often the heart and soul of the opposition. If taken, it can considerably weaken the enemy and often be the eventual downfall of the enemy. In modern days though, there really arent strongholds like this that are the heart and soul of the enemy. It is possible to strike a strategic location and have it paralize the area around it for a moment in time. This gives the Pillager an advantage until the opposition has time to regroup. So I think this element could and should be brought into the game.

    Basically set up an outpost, outside a major town, that is set up with Super guards, cannons and other obstacles. The object being to destroy all the guards, cannons, and obstacles in the outpost. This would allow the pillagers to re-route the power at that outpost from the allied city to their own city.

    The trick is the Super guards, cannons and other obstacles are each equivilant to Tarasque. The opposition will likely come and help defend the outpost, making it that much harder. The Super guards, cannons and other obstacles respawn daily at the same time, resetting the timer, so you have to be fast.

    The reward is that the opposition loses control of their grid, whompa, vending machines, clan advantages(if those ever make it to live) and guards for the city associated with the pillaged outpost, until the opposition can regroup. While at the same time the pillagers still get access through the grids and whompas and get better prices for goods bought/sold in their own town vending machine.

    To regroup, the opposition must retake the outpost in the same way the pillagers did. Simulating the time that was lost due to the disruption caused by the attack. Of course it would still be hard
    to retake the outpost, just not as hard to retake it as the pillaging side had. This also means the pillagers would have to fight alot harder to keep those advantages.




    City Simulator's
    This idea was STOLEN from SimCity/FallenAge/Civilization. So its not really original, but goes along way to adding more content to the game.

    Basically the point is to have a side game that lets you play solo outside of the normal game play that is like SimCity. You can earn some experience from this type of gameplay, but it wont be even half what you get in missions. It adds more flavor to the game so that it isnt missions, missions, missions and more missions.

    We all should know the basics of Sim City and other simulation games. So Ill skipp all the formalities and go right on to how it can work and the benifits. BTW this would actually be Floating Cities, to explain the PvP aspect, when it comes around :O) But, it doesnt really matter how you explain it since its all just a representation and really doesn't need to fit 100% into reality. HEHEHE or else shotguns wouldnt be the most powerful weapon :OP

    The city can be made up of 5 different zones. Technology, Mining, Education, War, and Resident zones. Everyone would get the same limited space to build your city. So even though the advancement of each zone would depend on the mixture of all the zones withen your floating city.

    Technology zones would be where you research new items for your character and to upgrade your ships capabilities.

    Mining zones are pretty much self explanitory. It mines the Notum and other materials that allow you to afford and make other items withen your city.

    Education zones deals with how well your residents work and learn new skills. This is essential to how fast you advance since it determines your residents capabilities.

    War zones are needed to attack and defend from opposing cities. It is essential to protect from attacks even if you never plan on attacking others.

    Residential zones are your work force. You need these zones to supply you with workers throughout the rest of your zones.

    Cities are active at all times even if the player isnt logged on. This means combat would have to be pure simulation based. That means you only need to attack and the system will compute the winner and what each person lost. This also means credits and items can be earned even when offline. but not experience. The only thing is your city doesnt grow and will likely decrease in size due to being attacked.

    The PvP part of this is pretty boring but fair. You put all your efforts into making the perfect PvP city then let the computer decide the winner instead of who has the best connection and items. Its all dependant on how you play.

    Each zone will have 20 levels. Each zone of the same type must increase seperately from the others. So, if you have 10 War zones, then each one of those must be advanced to level 20. Zones can be decreased in level or eliminated if attacked by an opposing force. You can only lose 10-30% of city size in any given day. If any of your buildings is over level 5 then you are freely attackable by any opposing city.

    Winning battles gives more improvements to your existing buildings. While you are logged on you earn experience points toward city and character improvement.

    Overall, Omni-Tek, Clans and Neutral will get bonuses for their combined production of the players cities. This helps to decide how productive each side is and how the tide will turn each day/week/month/year. This is good since you can often tell which side will win in a war by their productivity off the battle field. It also directs the flow of the story and also helps to decide the eventual winner.




    Capture the Flag
    The basics are that this is a team competition between two teams of 3-6 players withen a 5 level spread. The idea being to capture oppenants flag then kill them all. Once flag has been put in the opposing teams flag terminal then your teams deaths are permanent meaning you dont get to come back to the playfield to battle anymore. Until then your team will respawn inside the mission and get instant Rez from death effects.

    This would take place in uniquely made mission playfields. Each allowing for play experiences tailored to maximum PvP challanges. Each zone would contain Flag booths, reclaims, and insta death rez machines (Too allow for teams to get right back into the action.) Keys to mission cannot be duplicated and are given to each person in each team leaders party. Maybe even even just issueing a command to the other team.

    The trick is to battle the opponent and get their flag back to your flag terminal first so that you can start killing them out of the mission area. You could stay back and kill them off initially and then go in for the flag or blah blah blah :OP Really simple and I am sure you get the idea for the tactics :O)

    The rewards are purely wagered rewards. You can wager Experience, Credits, or items. In the case of Experience you cannot wager more than you have at currant level, meaning you cant lose a level. Since the teams have to be withen 5 levels of each other that means very little chance for explotation. Also the 10% experience level cap would still be in effect. The hardest part would be in creating a GUI interface that would include all wagers.

    Now we would get to see who are the best PvPers because both teams would have something to lose :O)




    King of the Hill
    Basically this would be a small arena you or your group fights to keep control of. It would be 0% suppression gas, so only team mates would be totally immune to you.

    The idea is to keep everyone out of the arena that you dont want in.

    The reward is Experience equivilant to mission experience would be given every 10 minites. This keeps people fighting constantly to keep control of the arena so they dont have to share the Pool of experience given to everyone not flying withen the arena.

    The pool of experience is a set amount and is dived among everyone in the arena. The reason flyers wont be allowed to grab any experience is because people would camp at top of the zone. This is classic battle royal pvp. Giving a new and constant diminsion to the game.




    4v4 Tournies
    Basic bracketed tourney system that consist of teams made up of 4 people. One loss and you are done and have to wait for the next tourney to start. System would have to be overseen by ARKs, in a special arena for participants. Heck just a thought but even add an bettign system for each match, so non-participants can bet on the action. HEHEHE maybe even get some Real handicappers to really simulate that Las Vegas,Monte Carlo feel :O)

    The tourney would be broken up into 3 classes which have 2 tournies each week. One tourney from 6am-12pm and second to be ran in the hours of 6pm-12am. This allows for people in different time zones to participate. All matches must take place sometime withen that time period and must participate in atleast one match per day. The 3 classes would be 75-110, 111-145, 146-200.

    The trick is to find the best combination of players, while still staying alive. Pretty simple :O)

    The rewards would be given to the top 3 and they get to choose special items from a select pool of items made especially for Tourney winners. There would be a wide variety of items so as to give all professions a good item so every has the incentive to compete :O)

    Done! add your ideas :O)

  3. #3
    My biggest concern with AO and how it handles PvP is that it places the choice to attack in the hands of the individual player. This IMHO pretty much is the source of most of the distaste most players have for PvP in AO.

    In reality we sometimes do have rogue factions and psychotics like we see in AO. However, these people are never considered as the kind of 'warrior' that can be allowed to kill with any degree of understanding. The AO PvP system is full of thugs and murderers.

    Authorization to attack should come from the Generals and Commanders-in-chief of the factions. If Phillip Ross as de facto Commander-in-chief of Omni-Tek decides that it might be wise to take over Rhino Cockpit, for example, then the game mechanics should be altered after his command to allow O-T combatants to move on the offensive toward the target. The willy nilly current system that lets people kill other people at a whim with no sense of purpose is highly flawed. It encourages gankers, griefing, and pushes people in the isolated missions.

    I certainly hope that the ability to capture territory will be accompanied by some sort of structure to military movements and doesn't degrade to some stupid pissing contest between player groups. The latter will put off 'PvP-curious' players as much as the current situations in Mort, 2HO, and MMD do now. Nobody gives a damn whether some uber-guild in Omni or Clan has control of some outpost other than the victorious guild or the defeated unless Radiman or Ross told their contingence to act.

    Failing to capture an objective noted by Phillip Ross or his lieutenants would be a crushing blow to ANY O-T employee that was urged to arms. See some uber-guild lose control of Rhino Cockpit is like 'yeah, so what?'

    The rampant free-for-all in MMD and Mort and EFP is just stupid. It has no context in the game as far as story is concerned and doesn't add much if anything to the fun of the game as a whole. We essentially have murderers out killing people on hunting trips. This is unacceptable in peacetime, wartime, anytime. In civilized society, it is understood that you don't murder innocents. PvP has no purpose in AO.

    That said, Clanners in Omni territory are in violation of the Tir Accord. Their should be some means for 'authorized' Omni players to arrest them and send them packing. Killing someone for fishing in a stream on your property without a fishing license is just stupid. That's what the situation is when some jerk Omni player ganks a clanner who is out killing plants in EFP. It adds nothing but frustration to the gankee. Just as in reality, and in accordance with the papers signed by Ross and Radiman, poachers should be sent home packing.

    Here's my fervent wish for an additional PvP model that would address a lot of the grief going on in 25% zones:

    Take the example of the Clanner who is 'poaching' on O-T land by killing plants in EFP in search of some profession balancing nano instruction disc. He is obviously breaking the laws by killing plants in non-CoT territory. What is the current assinine response to this individual? To KILL him and cause him lost experience and grief. KILL him for hunting plants? Get real.

    In 25% zones, I feel that an O-T attacking and killing a 'poacher' IF THE POACHER DOES NOT RETALIATE should simply dispatch them to the reclaim with NO loss of EXP and no PvP title reward. This simulates the 'plant police' catching someone doing something they are not supposed to be doing and sending him home. The poacher is inconvenienced and loses some pride.

    No damage done to the 'cop' = job well done enforcing the laws. If the Clanner or Neutral in EFP decides to fire back at the arresting officer, then the rules react as they are now. However, if Phillip Ross decides there are too many Clanners enjoying the prosperity of EFP hunting grounds, he may issue a proclamation stating that encroachers will be dealt with 'with extreme prejudice'.

    I guess it all comes back to the lack of story providing any purpose behind players killing other player's characters.

  4. #4
    Bio

    That is exactly why I thought of these systems. Multiple ways to battle and all of it concentual since every place on Rubi-Ka is 75% except the very small areas that are set up for PvP situations :O)

    Free-for-alls always turn into gankfests. Thats why we need to refocus what war is :O) and this is a good step in the right direction. So dont be afraid to add more ideas we need all the good ideas possible :O)

  5. #5
    Nikki,

    congrats on the best article I've read about structuring PvP and making it meaningful in a MMOG in a long, long time. Those are really great suggestions, all of them. While you're right that it would be impossible to incorporate most of them into the game at this stage, there are nonetheless a lot of ideas in there that could be adapted in one form or another.

    Unstructed PvP is just pure chaos and doesn't bring a thing to a MMOG world.

    You should e-mail this to Feedback too.

    Great post and *bump.*
    Numi7, Omni-Tech Employee
    Solitus Engineer
    Division 3 [Omni Reclamation]
    RK2

  6. #6
    I normally detest PvP. Too many griefers ruining the marginal fun that could be had. But I think these are some great ideas. I have only been to 1 25% zone and never to a 0% zone in the 6 months I have been playing this game because I just dont care for PvP, and especially the PvP in AO.

    These ideas would make PvP actually interesting. I dont know why game makers refuse to look at the numbers and realize that PvP is a niche market and the majority dont care for it. The idea shouldnt be to make a gank fest for the over-testosteroned, but should be a way to make player versus player combat interesting to those who normally wouldnt care for it.

  7. #7

    Good treatise

    Excellent work, Nikki. Consider this one more voice of support for what should be obvious, but isn't. I pretty much ignore PvP in AO, flying everywhere and avoiding "the enemy" like the plague. I know someday I'll get ganked... but in the meantime I'm ignoring that aspect of the game entirely.

    Funcom has chosen their path for the game and I think it very unlikely they will alter it... but I wholeheartedly agree that their current path seems broken.

  8. #8
    Thanks everyone :O)

    And yes I have sent this to a few people at Funcom :O)

  9. #9
    I only read half of it so far (I'm at work) I will read the rest later, but it's a great article so far.

    Hope FC read it too..
    Azzazzimon
    ICQ: 419860

    Clan Apocalypse - The guild for models

    Account closed.

  10. #10

    Maybe lack of fantasy makes PVP in A-O to a dull experience

    Some of these ideas might be tested in A-O today with a sligth modification.

    BASE – DEFEND – ASSUALT

    Participants anyone who can get to area.

    Key-persons – CLAN LEADERS and OMNI-APPARTMENT leaders

    Place Clan base in CENTRAL ARTARY WALLY

    RULES THAT CAN BE TAKEN AND ALSO BROKEN, after all its total anarchy.

    Key-person should have ONE (1) container with UNSAVED items to a value of 500k .

    This will be some test of both strength and loyalty – you will aslo have to learn a bit about the other side to more easily get in contact with more profitable kills – maybe you will need someone to scout them out and call for ambush to strike right on Key-person – maybee you will need some tactics to keep your Key-persons alive – maybe your not loyal and strike against your own key-persons too.

    The base I had in mind have some obsticles in form of : cannons, guards and beasts in close area like pit lissard. To make it more challenging I can tell that some of the buildings also contains CLAN soldiers who are hostile to clanners.

    In the same area are some spots where you will be more undisturbed from hostile MOBs, if one doesn’t pull a train of course, if you want to make a more CLAN vs OMNI type of war. But that can of course be done anywhere with a bit of fantasy and some EVENT GENERALS from CLAN and OMNI to point out the style of engagement – vital is that you make out KEY-PERSON that can be LOOTED.


    Lamonia

    President Anvil
    Last edited by Lamonia; Apr 24th, 2002 at 10:13:06.

  11. #11

  12. #12

    Crybaby

    I cannot understand what's so very forward with these ideas - they all look like copy cats from other games one to mention DAoC and CTF could be done even in Apache.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Since FC cannot solve this problem for us we got to do it ourselves within the existing game.

    So why not work out some ideas that can be put up on regular basis and you can join whenever you like.

    With all the brains playing A-O there got to be a lot of good thoughts to develop within the game of today.

    Those ideas are the stones that I would like to see being formed into diamonds.


    Lamonia

    The one and only - yup its just me

  13. #13
    Lamonia
    There are no new ideas, when it comes to war. My whole point was to say that life is not a a one dimensional universal. Hell there are tons of ways to screw up your life. In AO though there is only one way to screw up your life and that makes for a very boring life :O(

    As for adopting etiqutte rules under the currant system??? Nahh, as I said before only the worst people will have an advantage under those systems. As many other philosophers have stated before, "There are no morals or etiquette in this world, only ideas that can be exploited until the next good idea comes along."

    This is a computer game. So it is entirely possible to set up boundaries that create a perfect world. You just have to fill in that world so that everyone will want to play by the rules and not constantly look for the next exploit."

    Give them a Utopia, and some might trash it. But everyone will know who is trashing their Utopia.

  14. #14
    The problem with the conflict in AO is that it is unstructured. People just run around killing other people indiscriminately. I'm sure if the designers had enough time and didn't have to release the game so quickly we'd be in better shape.

    When George Washington was waiting to cross the Delaware, he didn't have rogue members of his unit decide to go run off on their own and start killing random Brits. These people would very likely have faced courtmarshall or discipline at the very least. An assault is called on by the leader of the Army.

    When the Allies were going to land on Omaha Beach, can you imagine what would have happened if some rogue group decided to cross the channel the day before and attack? Or what if some loner decided to head over and run around the beachfront fortifications killing Gerries and shouting 'I ownzored j00'?

    On the other side of the coin, back to the American Revolution. We didn't kill Loyalists or British citizens simply because they were walking in New Jersey or Connecticut. If some snobby Fox Hunt were going on in Rhode Island, the local Militia did not murder the Loyalists who were off on a weekend holiday. They probably just smacked them with the butt of their guns and told them to go back to town. Now, if it were British Troops ambushed in a woodland camp, violence would surely ensue.

    AO's PvP system is just stupid. It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't encourage war and discourages any kind of structured group PvP. The title system promotes single-player ganking. Like a fish, it stinks from the head.

    Proper PvP needs to be driven by the story and be accompanied with specific goals and/or impetus. Killing people in Mort simple because 'I can' is so stupid it's not funny. Clanners in Mort are simply walking around on land that was rightfully left for them to govern by the Tir Accord signed by no less than Phillip Ross himself. Can you see the stupidity of some stupid 150+ Omni character running around in Mort wiping out groups of lvl90 hunters? Can you not see that this person is a murderer in-character and probably a jerk in real life? You wonder why they are called 'griefers'.

    The game must be enhanced to provide a real reason to PvP. Capturing an outpost is nice. But, that's no real reason. The other side will capture it back in a week. Big deal.

    People from the Clans need to get a call to arms from no less than Henry Radiman himself. They need to be told that a particular area must be defended and/or captured. The storyline MUST reflect this. The results of the battle MUST be accounted for in the Story. The objective MUST be big and guards ought to be spawned and the suppression gas set to 75%. The message boards should light up for a couple weeks as the victors pat each other on the back and the political fallout ensues.

    Murderers such as those who kill hunting parties in EFP, SFH, Mort, etc. should be reprimanded by their respective Faction. Murder as War has never been endorsed by any civilized society. I doubt this will change in 27,000 years. FunCom needs to implement a less severe penalty to simulate 'arrest'.

    The murder at the pyjama party the other night was simply stupid. FunCom needs to implement an 'arrest' nano that sends people back to their startup city or implement a severely less severe penalty for death of a character who dies without fighting back in a 25% zone. Why should the lvl175 who kills the poor lvl80 Fixer looking for his Grid Armor by killing plants in EFP be rewarded? He should be reviled by all factions of society except the mentally disturbed.

    Simple changes here, FunCom. Bring us the PvP patch and maybe some people will give it a shot. Leave it as it is and the majority of your playerbase with NEVER, ever, EVER, embrace the violence versus other players element of your game. NEVER. People raised in today's society as a general rule will not kill without purpose. People for the most part in real life do not join the Army to be able to kill other people. They do it to have a hand in defending whatever ideals they subscribe to.

    That jackass up in Mort or at Ace Camp is NOT defending any ideals In-Character or Out-. He's simply satisfying some RL deficiency either mental, biochemical, or otherwise.

  15. #15
    Bionitrous

    Exactly my point :O)

  16. #16
    Bio, Nikki.

    Damn good valid points.

    Don't see FC taking action...
    Perfection breeds weakness.

    Obergeist-Burning bright, Above the head ghost

    Mdgprogram-Fearful symmetry <---beat the every lovin' crap out of a level 60 soldier at 49

    Stronger, better, faster, push it

    The Troll Corps want you!tm
    General in the Troll Corps tm

  17. #17
    Ya I know, hard to get input from anyone :O(

    Not one bad post on this and all ya get is complete silence from Funcom :O(

  18. #18
    It's easier to do the money making thing, then it is to take the right steps toward making a wholly unique gaming style.

    If anything kills AO, it'll be boredom. Same for almost any other MMPRPG. Do something to often, it gets boring.

    A war that truly matters, and changes following events, and has player interaction would go a long way to extending the entertainment value.

    As the 25% zones grow larger, the majority of people going to take high ql missions gets bigger.

    We're a coat wearing cult of shut-ins atm.

    14.2 The double edged sword is closing in. Game-play will change. If it's positive or not, hard to say.
    Last edited by Obergeist; Apr 30th, 2002 at 21:26:40.
    Perfection breeds weakness.

    Obergeist-Burning bright, Above the head ghost

    Mdgprogram-Fearful symmetry <---beat the every lovin' crap out of a level 60 soldier at 49

    Stronger, better, faster, push it

    The Troll Corps want you!tm
    General in the Troll Corps tm

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