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Thread: A Note to Funcom concerning their current direction with Quests.

  1. #1

    Unhappy A Note to Funcom concerning their current direction with Quests.

    I’ll try to keep this brief (but will fail miserably), so let me start off by saying that I’ve played Everquest all it’s life. I currently play Dark Age of Camelot as well. With that in mind, I can look at both of their quest systems and give you an honest opinion of which I prefer, the problems they may have, and which direction I hope Anarchy Online takes their quest system in.

    Currently, I’m very disappointed to see that Funcom seems to be going in the Everquest direction of questing. If I had to bet, I would say the reasoning behind this was largely due to Everquest’s success. They were a successful product, so their methods must be sound and desirable, right? Well, I don’t believe that line of thinking is necessarily correct. My personal opinion is that Everquest’s success is largely due to it’s timing. It filled a large void that existed in online gaming, and whether you cared for it’s gameplay or not.. it was the only truly 3D MMORPG available to play at it’s time. Thus, I believe it got a much larger audience than it would have had if other comparable games been available at the time of it’s launch.

    Some weeks ago I did AO’s Alvin/Dodga quest. To my great sadness, I immediately felt like I was playing Everquest all over again.. a game that I happily left after many years to enjoy the supposed uniqueness of Anarchy Online. Instead, I was back to doing the same sort of chores I had labored through in Everquest:

    -Camping monsters in search of rare drops.
    -Camping in a line with other players waiting for a quest NPC to spawn so that I could speak with him.
    -Getting frustrated and eventually loathing other players who would jump in on my combats to kill monsters I was currently fighting in an attempt to get their own rare drop quest pieces.

    That last part was by far the most frustrating.. because unlike Everquest, Anarchy Online does not have a “Play Nice Policy”. From what I can tell, there are no rules on “kill stealing”, and generally many people will act like total rear-ends and do whatever it takes to advance themselves at the cost of someone else’s fun because nobody of authority has come out and said “don’t do that”.

    For the record, none of this is fun. Sitting in a line with other players waiting for the quest NPC to spawn, wondering which one of them is laying low now but will eventually reveal his or her true colors and jump ahead of you in line at the moment the quest NPC appears is not fun. It’s how you get ulcers, not enjoyment. The feeling of dread that washes through you when you see a higher-level player showing up where you’re hunting for quest pieces isn’t fun.

    Representatives for EQ used to state that, while it could be frustrating trying to complete steps of a quest or hunting for a rare-drop, the emotional feeling of accomplishment and victory you gained at the end made it all worth it. They were wrong. The emotional feeling of joy you get after completing one of these arduous tasks is not a feeling of accomplishment or victory, but usually one of “oh my god, after 6 freaking wasted hours of my life I can finally get out of this hell”. Everquest designers never quite understood that.

    On the other hand, we have Dark Age of Camelot’s quest system. It is definitely ‘less challenging’ in a way of gaming where ‘challenging’ is unfortunately defined by how close we can get a player to screaming in frustration. But it’s quest system is fun and enjoyably pleasant.. oh is it pleasant.

    For those of you who are not aware of how DAoC’s quest system works, it’s very simple. A typical quest, for example, will send you out to recover an item from a particularly fiendish monster, and then return to the quest NPC to inform him of your victory. You set out to accomplish this, which is often easy enough as very specific directions are usually given. Upon arriving there you may find a few other players working on the same quest. So you talk to them, and offer to form a larger group. And they will accept. Why? Because in DAoC, everyone in a group who kills a quest monster will automatically get the quest item dropped into their inventory the first time they kill the beast in question. That’s right, every single person in the group, all at the same time. And that’s it, everyone cheers for each other’s good fortune, thanking each other for their help, and you can leave. It’s that easy. And you don’t have to worry about non-quest people camping the monster.. because he doesn’t drop anything for you unless you have the quest, so it’s pointless to hunt it.

    Then you return to the NPC, he acknowledges your victory.. and he stays there, ready to give the quest out again to anyone who is of the right level range and hasn’t already been given it once. He doesn’t despawn, there are no lines, no waiting. No competition, just cooperation between players. And you can then move on and go do another quest, or whatever fancies you at that moment.

    Maybe for some players that’s a problem. After all, competition can be fun, no? Yes, the right kind of competition can be fun. But the kind of competition that Everquest (and now AO) is trying to promote is not fun. There is nothing fun about logging into Everquest and waiting in line for Lord Ragefire to spawn every 72 hours or so, having to call in a GM to play policeman every time another group walks in on your camp and attempts to cut in front of you. There’s a difference between competition and absurdity.

    I would also like to point out that a typical Everquest server has around 2500 players, and that an AO server is (theoretically) supposed to have a whole lot more than that. Let’s say you have just 5000 players wanting to do Dodga’s quest. You have to wait 2 hours for him to spawn to give you the mission, and then 2 more hours (because he will immediately despawn upon giving you the mission) for him to respawn again so that you can hand him the item he requested you to collect. That’s a four hour turnover per player, and with 5000 players waiting to do that quest, you’re looking at two and a quarter years to shuffle through that queue.

    I’m sorry, but that’s just silly.

    The current quest system will breed nothing but contempt and anger between the players. And that’s a shame, because not only is there a better way to handle quests (DAoC’s system), but AO has some tricks available to it that none of these other games have available to them, like the (albeit small) variety of tasks in their randomly generated mission system, the ability to spawn temporary private playfields, etc. These features could be combined with the best features of DAoC’s quest system to make for a truly fun and entertaining experience, and I really wish this would be considered for future quests.

    It would be nice if Cosmik set up a poll that very simply asks something like “Which quest model would you prefer AO to be more similar to? A) Everquest B) Dark Age of Camelot”, while giving examples of how both quest systems work. I honestly believe more people would choose “B” over “A”.

    Gaming is supposed to be fun, not work. Anarchy Online is, honestly, very much in need of some fun elements. Please don’t waste the opportunities to make it so.

  2. #2
    One suggestion. add a third option:

    C) Asheron's Call

    Benefits

    1. Quest items spawn on a 15second timer.

    2. There are so many quests to do that no single quest is uber camped all the time.

    3. New quests are added every month without fail.

    4. Quests are varied. There are many low level, medium level, and high levels quests in the game.

    5. Quests are soloable (not easy mind you, but at least possible.)

    6. Quests reward you with items that are actually useful.

  3. #3

    Re: A Note to Funcom concerning their current direction with Quests.

    Originally posted by Gyson
    Upon arriving there you may find a few other players working on the same quest. So you talk to them, and offer to form a larger group. And they will accept. Why? Because in DAoC, everyone in a group who kills a quest monster will automatically get the quest item dropped into their inventory the first time they kill the beast in question. That’s right, every single person in the group, all at the same time. And that’s it, everyone cheers for each other’s good fortune, thanking each other for their help, and you can leave. It’s that easy. And you don’t have to worry about non-quest people camping the monster.. because he doesn’t drop anything for you unless you have the quest, so it’s pointless to hunt it.
    That is very cool. And it's the right way to go I feel. Make the game enjoyable to play, not a chore.

  4. #4
    Why make this game like any of the others. The quests are one of the most boring parts of DAOC. "Yes, please help save the village by killing this unique beast. I will reward you with this unique item." Ignore the fact that everyday 50 other characters also help save the village by killing the same unique beast and getting the same unique item. Joy.

    AO Missions involve me being the only one sent to place X to carry out mission Y. I know they are repetitive, but at least they are individual. I wish they had stayed with that model for their story missions, there would have been so much potential there.

    AO now has uber guilds organizing to take out uber mobs to get the uber drops. Wheee....

    Scorus

  5. #5
    While that seems pretty cool, it also sort of cheapens the quest when you can do that. I like the fact that quests are difficult and timing plays a large part in it. That makes you appreciate the reward that much more.

    As a comparison, the epic weapon quests in EQ are really great, except for a few classes that have huge bottle necks, i.e. Clerics, but the reward is worth all the effort.

    I dont think the "epic" quests in DAoC can compare in their complexity or difficulty.

    Thats mostly because EQ's strongest and most attractive feature is the number of "uber" mobs and epic encounters you can face. I have yet to find anything in AO or DAoC that can compare to that first time you beat that uber mob, especially when they own you several times before hand. Nothing. Not RvR, or PvP or the poor attempt at "uber" mobs in DAoC or AO. There are no mobs in either game that are truly epic in scale and require a massive well coordinated force to beat.

    That is imo why EQ is so successful still. Its not timing, cause if it didnt still provide that challenge, that rush, then most of their player base would have left already. The fact is, EQ keeps players around cause they know how to add bigger and tougher challenges, continually.

    If AO wants to take a page out of EQs book for success and staying power, adding godlike uber mobs would be the way to go, imo.

  6. #6
    Originally posted by Scorus
    Why make this game like any of the others. The quests are one of the most boring parts of DAOC. "Yes, please help save the village by killing this unique beast. I will reward you with this unique item." Ignore the fact that everyday 50 other characters also help save the village by killing the same unique beast and getting the same unique item. Joy.

    AO Missions involve me being the only one sent to place X to carry out mission Y. I know they are repetitive, but at least they are individual. I wish they had stayed with that model for their story missions, there would have been so much potential there.

    AO now has uber guilds organizing to take out uber mobs to get the uber drops. Wheee....

    Scorus
    So, you have never seen the hundreds of players that go to X and carry out the exact same Y mission?

    I think from the AO model they could offer a combination method. Have it where you can buy a mission for the quests. That way nothing is camped, just you and the people you give the key to get to go. So for places like Neleb, and TIM, just offer them in special quest terminals. That would at least fall in line with the model they developed from the beginning. It would also solve ganking.

    They need to do this for the unique drop NPCs as well. Its kinda lame to wait 24 hours for the "Sunglasses man" to spawn when 40 other people are standing around for it as well (and to get nothing for it when you actually get the kill.)

    Now, if you think the model would be boring. Just have it where when you buy the quest it doesnt tell you where it is. That way, you just have the keys, but not a hint of where it is. Perhaps keep a list of the unique places you have found and only list those?

  7. #7
    Originally posted by Scorus
    Why make this game like any of the others. The quests are one of the most boring parts of DAOC. "Yes, please help save the village by killing this unique beast. I will reward you with this unique item." Ignore the fact that everyday 50 other characters also help save the village by killing the same unique beast and getting the same unique item. Joy.
    How is this any different than the quest model currently in AO? Alvin and Dodga, for example, ask you to hunt robots and return with any unusual findings. You do so, and they say they need to look over what you found for a couple weeks, and will have more for you to do later.

    Meanwhile a hundred other people did the exact same thing. This scenario is exactly the same model that you described above.

    Where the difference begins is that task took.. oh, 30 to 60 minutes to complete in Camelot, and probably a minimum of 5 to 6 hours to complete in Anarchy Online (assuming you didn't have to wait in line for Alvin/Dodga's respawn...).

    The other difference is in AO you probably spent part of that time arguing with people who were jumping in the middle of your robot fights, attempting to negotiate some sort of 'turn' system that went to hell the moment a 3rd party came along, and generally got stressed over something that's supposed to be entertaining. In DAoC you probably spent your time grouping with other people on the same mission, enjoying some conversation and making friends, and enjoying a victory together as you help each other complete your objective.

    All quests are going to be simliar in content from game to game because of the limitations of online gaming. The methods used to move you through those quests will differ, however. And it can be the difference between an enjoyable experience and a chore.

    Originally posted by Tomasin
    While that seems pretty cool, it also sort of cheapens the quest when you can do that. I like the fact that quests are difficult and timing plays a large part in it. That makes you appreciate the reward that much more.
    The only ‘timing’ involved in the current AO quest is being lucky enough to catch Dodga/Alvin spawned and standing around without a line of players waiting to speak with them. I’m not sure if I’d classify that as a game-enhancing element. To me, that’s bad game design.

    Originally posted by Tomasin
    That is imo why EQ is so successful still. Its not timing, cause if it didnt still provide that challenge, that rush, then most of their player base would have left already. The fact is, EQ keeps players around cause they know how to add bigger and tougher challenges, continually.
    I’m of the opinion that players who haven’t left are still sticking around because there’s nothing out there currently more appealing to them. That’s not to say that Everquest is still appealing to them, it’s just that right now it’s all they feel they have. There’s also an issue of not wanting to abandon friendships formed during their time playing the game, and also (for some of them) the desire not to abandon a character they’ve placed so much time and energy into. And again, these are all advantages of having been around first before other more recent online games hit the market.

    As far as uber-encounters that require 30 or more players to defeat an uber-monster.. for some people that is the farthest thing from appealing as you can get. I know that’s hard to believe for someone who lives for those moments, but it’s not that way for everyone, or even mostly everyone. I definitely know more people who despise raids than I know people who enjoy then, and I would not attribute that kind of encounter to Everquest’s success, nor focus the energy of AO's dev team on that game aspect alone.

  8. #8

    As far as uber-encounters that require 30 or more players to defeat an uber-monster.. for some people that is the farthest thing from appealing as you can get. I know that’s hard to believe for someone who lives for those moments, but it’s not that way for everyone, or even mostly everyone. I definitely know more people who despise raids than I know people who enjoy then, and I would not attribute that kind of encounter to Everquest’s success, nor focus the energy of AO's dev team on that game aspect alone.
    While I could take the easy rebuttal and point to the number of level 60s still doing raids almost daily in EQ, I wont.

    I dont play EQ anymore, but Raids are the only thing I miss. The fact that you may know more people who are anti raid, doenst mean that more players are anti raid than are for raid. I liken it to like minded people gravitating toward each other...

    I dont know how you dont see that raids are the biggest thing regarding EQs success (or at least their ability to keep players around). Seriously, Several high profile guilds have gone and tested the waters of other games, like AO and DAoC and almost all of them have returned because of the lack of epic encounters. Go to any big guild in EQ, like Afterlife or FoH and ask on their message boards why they still play EQ even after they have beaten all there is to beat, and I bet they will say that they still get the rush from beating the unbeatable.

    Fact is, I know AO is a better game in a lot of respects than EQ is. I know of several of my friends who still play EQ (in case you couldnt guess, I was in a big raiding guild) and they say they miss raids, so they still play EQ, even though they are pretty sick of it by now.

    EQ has 400,000+ subscribers.

    DAoC or AO couldnt combine their subscribers and reach half of that.

    Go on any server and do a /who all <pick any class> 60 and I gaurantee you see the "request cut short, too many...." message.


    Why do people who have reached max level still play? Cause there is still a carrot out in front of them...

  9. #9
    Originally posted by Tomasin
    While I could take the easy rebuttal and point to the number of level 60s still doing raids almost daily in EQ, I wont.
    I’m not sure what the point there would be. There is little do in Everquest for level 60 players other than raids for uber-items. Note that I said for Everquest, that doesn’t mean that’s all a high level player should have available as an option of things to do. The fact that EQ offers almost nothing else to do at that level is an example of bad game design.


    Originally posted by Tomasin
    I dont play EQ anymore, but Raids are the only thing I miss. The fact that you may know more people who are anti raid, doenst mean that more players are anti raid than are for raid. I liken it to like minded people gravitating toward each other...

    I dont know how you dont see that raids are the biggest thing regarding EQs success (or at least their ability to keep players around). Seriously, Several high profile guilds have gone and tested the waters of other games, like AO and DAoC and almost all of them have returned because of the lack of epic encounters. Go to any big guild in EQ, like Afterlife or FoH and ask on their message boards why they still play EQ even after they have beaten all there is to beat, and I bet they will say that they still get the rush from beating the unbeatable.
    Well, my analysis of player opinion during raids doesn’t come from asking specific friends who are tired of EQ how they feel about raids. It’s based on observations of comments made by a huge assortment of players in different guilds. I even dare say that it was the majority opinion of many guilds that raids were a hassle and a necessary misfortune they had to participate in in order to remain competitive, since EQ is very much about items.

    Keep in mind what you said about like-minded people gravitating towards each other. Afterlife and FoH were very raid-competitive guilds that were more interested in being the first to do specific things and to acquire the best items out there. To them, that was their goal in EQ. People who were part of those guilds most likely shared the same interests and opinions. So of course, these guilds are not going to find other games that lack these features to be appealing. That doesn’t make them bad games, or games that are worse than Everquest. It just means that the other games are trying to appeal to players in a different way, which to many players is a blessing.

    Originally posted by Tomasin
    Why do people who have reached max level still play? Cause there is still a carrot out in front of them...
    Because online gaming is like a drug addiction to a serious amount of people out there. Many of them can not stop playing these games, will dissolve real life friendships because of these games, and will turn their lives upside down for these games. Sad but true, and anyone who thinks an online company isn’t banking on that effect is kidding themselves. For other players, it’s about not wanting to give up on something they invested so much time and energy on.

    You would be surprised, I think, at how many players no longer play Everquest (and have no intentions of returning), yet still maintain an account there for just those reasons. And many of those people will continue to do that until EQ comes to an end. It is a strong thing, addiction.. and it’s good to be first for that very reason.

  10. #10
    You make some good points. Its true, I dont play EQ anymore, but my account is still active.

    Im not trying to be argumentative for the sake of arguing, I just see it different and my experiences are different I guess. When AO or DAoC came out my EQ guild lost about 10% of its players to those games, most are back now. If my guild in EQ is a cross section of the EQ population, then I would say that raid addicts are the majority there, but of course its not a cross section. Back to the like minded individual thing. But the numbers lost are a good indication of how EQs population has been hit. I would say on average most high level guilds lost around 10%, some more, some less. Many have returned.

    One thing I have noticed about online games is the players are very very attached to one and not any others. EQ addicts wont even think about another game, unless they have just reached the end of their attachment. I play AO almost exclusively now, but I do play DAoC from time to time, and EQ when they need some more damage for that uber that just needs to die The tricky thing for any online game is gonna be breaking those attachments and getting the players to try something new. The best way to do that is to offer some of the things they like, improved, and some new things that will be more appealing.

    Would fixing static missions in AO so that they more resemble the quest system in DAoC attract players? Yep.

    Would adding epic encounters to AO attact more players? Yep.

    As for the numbers of people who like raiding and such, Im gonna have to say we need to agree to disagree.

    Thanks for a civil exchange of ideas. Pretty refreshing amongst the turmoil of an online games message boards

  11. #11
    for the record the anarchy online servers where intended to handle 500000 similtanius players. that is why there was only intended to have 1 server....... the game is curently setup to handle 50,000 similtanust players with no lag problems...... during stress tests in beta they had over 100,000 similtanius players with minimal lag. (cept in large cities) during peek time curently you can expect 10,000+ players on at the same time.

    anarchy online has with out question the highest amount of players possable per server.......
    Level 132 Nano-Techniction <---- Retired till NT fix
    Level 72. Engineer <---- why is my pet running the wrong way?
    Level 69. Agent <---- Retired sence Concealment Nerf.
    Level 58. Adventure <---- TONS of lost ip.
    Level 41. Meta.<--- Mp's are too uber.
    Level 30. Enforcer <---- press "Q" and watch tv.
    Level 29. Doc <---- Can't..... Find.... Group.....

    Quote of the week "When people complain equally about all of the classes, then the game is balanced."

  12. #12
    after listening to every single pink floyd song twice in the past 19 hours, I've decided - both systems suck. howabout something other than "kill a monster, bring an item back, claim reward"? something a little more, you know, involving. if you can read my scribblies, you can check this out:

    http://clang33k.tripod.com/dungeon1.jpg
    (copy and paste to a new window)

    for some ideas which sprouted while I was trying to sleep. The old system of "Kill, Pick up Item, walk to a person, get a reward" gets terribly boring after about the 3.564E+6th time it is executed.

  13. #13
    Originally posted by LostLogic
    One suggestion. add a third option:

    C) Asheron's Call

    Benefits

    1. Quest items spawn on a 15second timer.

    2. There are so many quests to do that no single quest is uber camped all the time.

    3. New quests are added every month without fail.

    4. Quests are varied. There are many low level, medium level, and high levels quests in the game.

    5. Quests are soloable (not easy mind you, but at least possible.)

    6. Quests reward you with items that are actually useful.

    One of the best things about Asheron's Call was the questing/adventuring/exploring aspect. Too bad they messed up with the character balance.

  14. #14

    I just have to say..

    I HATE it everytime I read a post like that one Gyson, and I'll tell you why. Because it's good, logical, and something I would really like to see in AO. So why do I hate it..? Because I know the chances of it even being noticed by someone who could implement it are next to nothing.

    But dream on. After all.. hope is important.

  15. #15
    Agree that there should be some more options on quest. Personally I like the DaOC angle that you only get certain quests at certain lvls. Camping shuld'nt be a problem in AO if you had NPC giving out unique mission keys. (No drop - unique)

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