The Council of Truth/Dust Brigade Link - Myth or Fact?

[_________Vadimoridin]

The two side conversations on this topic are wonderful but reading over the one im not really a part of - SBC a 'knight in shining armor?' Are you really so naive Fixerbean? SBC is a HyperCorp.... it makes money. It owns planets. It is, in a weird way, a sister to Omni-Tek. It doesnt do things unless a profit can be made.


But back to my thread.

Actually cogs, you do mean one planet, one goverment - take a look at this statement from your post:

as well as the ability to ditch my guns, and travel the planet unafraid.....be able to state and express my views and opinions without fear of being placed on Omni-Pols "wanted dead or alive" list. (emphisis mine)

Really. Lets say you get the north into a demoncratic goverment (which, as miss Savvoy pointed out, hasnt happened yet. After 200 years youd think youd have the first steps, but no, not really. Your back where you started just after the conflict began) And you have your definition of freedom. Or security. And then you wander down south of the line... Suddenly you are in Omni-Tek terroritory, and once agian subject to her laws and processes. And that wont be likely to change just because of some treaties that state various things and grant various concessions to 'torrists' - either, as many clanners have stated before, Omni-tek wouldnt change at all, or it would decide those torists were spies or infultrators or some such. *laughs* Really, without the CoT controling the whole planet, your definition of freedom cant happen.

Buit Mr Cogs, as Savvoy also points out, and you do yourself even if you dont realize it - you state in your definiton of freedom to allow yourself to live like you want to live - so why do we have to accept the rule of CoT or any other democratic goverment? As i already pointed out, the only way you can get your definition of 'freedom' is one planet, one goverment - and to do so that would deny some of us our freedom to live under Omni-Tek.

[Constans]

I'd like to add to my rant of earlier, If the Clans could come up with a cohesive plan for peace that did not revolve around falling back upon Weapons to solve their problems (which, sadly seems to be what MOST of the clanners are saying they will gladly do) I would join them in an instant, however, as others have said before me, it has been OT who has initiated every step for peace of recent years. (No I am not forgiving their transgressions of the past, but without forgiveness we'll get nowhere) The CoT made efforts but were held back by less moderate clan elements and sabotaged by extremists (from BOTH sides). The dialogue opening between Radiman and Ross gave us hope, shame about the acts of terrorism by the extremists really.

Perhaps we need to bring in strict weapon control laws - a weapon buyback amnesty where everyone on the planet hands in their weapons except for the appointed (but much smaller than current) armed forces of both parties to protect us all from people like the dust brigade?

Clanners will argue that they would not be safe, but as has been said earlier, if OT is so much numerically and technologically superior, why haven't we just exterminated you earlier?

Remember, OT does not NEED the clans, whereas OT forms a good barrier between The rest of the universe and the clans. Keep that in mind.

[Aerinyi]

Omni-Tek couldn't afford to wipe us out, they can't take the chance that the ICC would refuse to renew their lease on the planet over it. This has been discussed several times here, by clan, neutral and Omni-Tek citizens... the impending end to Omni-Tek's affects everything. Particularly in light of rumors that the ICC is under the influence of Sol Banking, I think it's safe to say that none of us want to see that lease go up for bidding. Best to cut a deal with the devil you know.

Edit: Interesting, having just scrolled back up and read some of your other posts I think we agree on several points regarding the lease. In light of that, I still have to wonder how it could not be obvious why OT cannot just get rid of the clans.

[Constans]

OT could not get rid of the clans easily. I never said that. It would be very dificult (as the last 3 wars have shown!). It's just that if push came to shove (or Silverstone got the full backing of the clans...) then OT could probably win.

But OT would never now start a war openly. Maybe through manipulation, but not openly.

[Daimoness]

I have only now stumbled upon this conversation and I am astounded that again, the moot tactics come to bear:

" ... you seem to forget that originaly everyone here was an employee of Omni-Tek - and that itself gives Omni-Tek the right to tell people what they can and cannot do on company time, on company grounds ... "

A lie does not become true by repeating it a hundred or even a thousand times over, Vadimoridin. The people who live within the clans are mostly born without any bonds to Omni-Tek. Their ancestors maybe were bound to the corporation, but such a contract cannot be inherited. Thus, they didn't owe anything to the corporation. Others have just quit their jobs and joined the clans. It seems to me that some people within Omni-Tek think of their workforce as slaves - no quitting possible and the offspring's bound to the oath as well - but we don't live in the time of the Romans any more.

My main goal is not to get rid of Omni-Tek. Given ICC's crooked policies, they'd just give another corporation the permission to harrass us. I'd prefer to stick with the evil I know instead of another one. My goal is to get a government going, which might eventually encompass all of Rubi-Ka. Omni-Tek would be more than welcome to continue it's business - but only within the laws that this government will set. That includes an independent police force, judges, and of course without the presence of any military force but those endorsed by this government. No more Omni-Pol being able to print it's own warrants to haul in whoever they might want to harrass.

(1) Restoration of the legal ICC recognition of the lands given to the Clans under the Tir Accord.
(2) Restrictions placed on Clans over off-world notum trading
(3) Review the rights of OT of prosecuting Clanners in Clan territory as defined i the Tir Accord.

The 1st point is more or less needed, even though ICC is a corporate monkey with a questionable legitimation and a history of worsening matters here whenever they chose to act.
The 2nd point applies likewise to Omni-Tek - restrictions on overall Notum exports will have to be put in place.
The 3rd point is moot. OT has no right to prosecute anyone on clan grounds and I consider any attempt to do it an act of crime in itself. I doubt that Omni-Pol has the guts to try and extract a clanner from clan grounds anyways.

Savoy, we're not a warrior culture. We just choose to believe in different values than you do. I do not know any clan where killing Omni-Tek employees is part of the rites of passage. It might be that a very few clan leaders would have no legitimation any more once there would be peace, but that could well be taken care of. The same is true for internal cohesion. You think that once you'll be gone we'd start fighting each other? Hardly. Most clanners I know just want to finally get peace.

Finally - trying to push the blame around won't get us anywhere. Endlessly repeating the errors of the past would make us not a bit wiser than our ancestors.

so long

Daimoness

[Dabblez]

Originally posted by Daimoness
[B] My goal is to get a government going, which might eventually encompass all of Rubi-Ka. Omni-Tek would be more than welcome to continue it's business - but only within the laws that this government will set. [b]

Okay, what is the deal with this "one planet, one government" business? Is there not room for more than one 'nation' and one 'culture' on Rubi-Ka? You have the north and have had centuries to create your democratic state where without any real success. Why do you feel the need have to swallow up Omni and Neutrals into your 'democratic' governement mess? Let us live as we wish to live!

Oops, I do seem to be repeating myself.

The 3rd point is moot. OT has no right to prosecute anyone on clan grounds and I consider any attempt to do it an act of crime in itself. I doubt that Omni-Pol has the guts to try and extract a clanner from clan grounds anyways.

Its not moot. Under the Tir Accord, signed by the former CoT, Omni-Pol did have rights to make arrests in Clan territories under certain circumstances. It may be that is one of the things that the Clans wish to renegotiate should the Accord be be brought back into force, but saying that OT has not rights to prosecute on Clan grounds is not technically true.

The fact of the matter is, whether you choose to reconginse ICC law is immaterial, ICC recognises you and you are subject to its laws. And these laws protect your rights and, among other things, ensure that OT has to share its insurance technology with you.

The Clans are not the indigenous population of Rubi-Ka. You were invaded by a foreign power. This is an ICC planet, all Clanners are descendents of ICC people. There is no "opt out". You can't just turn around and say, "I am special, the rules don't apply to me."

[Daimoness]

I do not call for a single governing body for all of Rubi-Ka. In fact, I do not see a chance of success for such a body in the near future. However, there must be some sort of agreement between all involved dominions - for lack of a better word - as to the exploitation of the planet's resources, namely Notum. You do not expect the clans to sit quietly and watch you exploit this planet like you did with so many other worlds.

And pardon me, but it was you - or rather Mr. Ross - who voided the Tir Accord. It is no longer of value to you, so why should I refer to it. Omni-Pol has proven itself again and again that it is not a police force but a band of thugs and be default are not to be believed and trusted unless they can show indisputable evidence for their case, something I have yet to see. I still remember how Omni-Pol tried to destabilize the CoT by claiming it's speaker and administration to be linked with the Dust Brigade. So far, there's nothing but unsubstantiated allegiations, still there were warrants issued and people arrested. Omni-Tek has shown that it's not only unable to bring any form of justice to us or its own people but it also does not even respect basic concepts of a judical system with independent courts.

The Tir Accord was still based on the concept that Omni-Tek was in some cases superior to the clans and thus entitled to conduct criminal investigations within clan territory. I will not - and that's something I share with all clansmen - accept any Omni-Tek influence in our lands, and even less so any so-called police actions by a Department that thinks it's above the law. I do not think I have to go into detail about Mr. Meister's reputation, but you will have a hard time finding anyone even within Omni-Tek who would utter a positive comment on this person and the department he is leading.

And no, we're not the indigenous population of this planet. Neither was Omni-Tek. This planet was unpopulated - at least by sentient beings - as to my knowledge. Omni-Tek claimed it, and the ICC approved of this. By the way you treated the people you brought here - slavery would be the most fitting description - you created the clans. By continuing your single-minded policy of ruthless exploitation you have brought up the resistance against your company. Times have changed, and by this opposition you were forced to treat your own people like humans. Look around the planet, face the abominations - some of them being gross distortions of humanoid life - and then come back and explain me the ethics of your company.

Yes, this is what this conflict boils down to. Ethics. You won't find this word in your company policy, nor in the economic and administrative dicitionaries. Ethics, originating in the religious beliefs of old Earth, the womb of mankind. Concepts of all men being equal, the protection of life, basic laws against killing, theft, slavery. I could continue for another hour about this, or a month, or even a year. I'm not sure you would understand it, cause ethics cannot be measured in money or other values your company uses. It's not part of a balance sheet, nor does it have an effect on your revenuees.

Until you accept these common ethics you will never be able to figure as a legal body I would consider worthy to rule even a fraction of this planet. For as long as your main "law" is profit, you are a company, not a legal governing body. The same is true for the ICC, which is an abbreviation for "Interstellar Confederation of Corporations". Doesn't sound to me like the ICC were elected by the people they are supposed to rule. To me, it's just another monkey dancing to the tune of it's puppet masters, the mega-corporations. Goverment though does not come through economic value, but by the legitimation of the people involved. In the case of Rubi-Ka, this is the people living here. This of course includes the employees of Omni-Tek working on this planet and the neutrals.

You need evidence for my claims? Here are some excerpts from history books:

"29112 - ICC receives the first serious complaints regarding Omni-Tek workers' conditions on Rubi-Ka. The mortality rate of the miners is alarmingly high, as are reports of brutality by security forces. Meanwhile, the salaries of OT workers are starting a downwards slide, caused - officials say - by a decline in the galactic economy and the demand for notum."

"November 02 29129 - A notum mine near Omni-2 collapses, trapping three hundred automatons, eighty-five bio-engineered non-sentient creatures, and seventy-two Atrox workers. Omni-Tek refuses to launch a rescue-operation, claiming time and cost concerns, and a limited chance of success."

"November 03 29129 - At a press-conference, an Omni-Tek spokesperson utters the infamous lines "They're only Atroxes" and "We're very concerned about our equipment", in reference to the trapped miners."

"November 07 29201 - Dissatisfied with Omni-Tek management and broken promises, workers instigate massive uprisings across Rubi-Ka. OT answers the demonstrations with firepower. Eighteen OT guards and more than three hundred workers are killed."

But probably I am talking in vain anyways, like trying to explain a blind man the beauty of colors. Just let me try to explain it this way: I do not want to take away your profits. But I will work to strip Omni-Tek of all it's government powers on this planet. You are welcome to stay and do what a company is supposed to do, but the laws are not made by you. Until you do not accept this, I am your enemy and I will fight you. I know many of my fellow clansmen would rather want Omni-Tek off planet completely. It all depends on the near future and what you choose it to be like: Choose to continue like your did throughout the past, and those voices will grow stronger. Choose to insist in being the ruling power of this planet and the clans will ultimately unite to wipe you from the surface of Rubi-Ka. Or choose to be just a corporation with the monopoly of Notum exports, bound to the laws set up by a free government - or by agreement between the governing bodies of Rubi-Ka - and you can make more profit than you do now, cause you will not need your armies and your juggernauts and all the military hardware you stacked here.

Yes, maybe we just talked to you in the wrong language, one that you cannot understand! So, here's the summary: Choose to accept an elected government and you can make more profit cause you can operate in peace. The clans do not want to take your money, the people of Rubi-Ka just want elected governments. There will be no peace until that is achieved.

Through force, you cannot win. But through wise acceptance of what people rightfully claim you may gain the wealth you are now fighting for.

[Marisha]

The reason why so many Omni-Tek employees look back at the Tir Treaty with a certain fondness is because it worked, brought stability to the planet, and increased shareholder value. For those of us who fought in the Third, it’s also viewed as ending the war. Sure, CEO Ross annulled the Tir Treaty, but only because the Council of Truth collapsed.

Let me put it this way for you, and hopefully you’ll understand. For any clanner who feels that CEO Ross was in the wrong for invalidating the Tir Treaty, I want you to try to negotiate with the End Game Alliance. Not the former member clans, the alliance. This was the situation facing Omni-Tek RK, and we had the added burden of having the leaders disappear and no announcement that there would be a new reformed group one day, just smaller.

We had to annul the treaty. There was no way to ensure its compliance.

Now, on the topic of police action; without the assurance that those who openly attack our operations here on Rubi-Ka can not flee to the north where they can receive shelter and support, and with threats that any attempt to apprehend terrorists that take action against our corporation will be opposed, there can be no peace. By sheltering terrorists, and opposing any effort to bring them to justice, you implicitly support their actions, becoming no better than the terrorists themselves.

And I for one can not accept the promise that an elected government that supports terrorism will allow us to operate our corporate efforts in peace.

[Daimoness]

I am sure you know that there is the effort to reform the Council of Truth - which brings me back to the original topic: The so far unsubstantiated claims of CoT links with the Dust Brigade.

The problem of criminals hiding under the cover of a different power is paramount and not solely linked to the clans. I have seen quite a lot of acts of crime committed by Omni-Tek employees with the corporation turning the blind eye on them.

Yes, we all are faced with the problem of having no formal court to appeal to, no attorney of the state to pursue criminals, no police force to arrest them, no one to bring them to justice. Instead, we use vengeance upon vengeance ... a deadly spiral of violence.

One proposal for the new-formed Council of Truth is to install an independent High Court so that for the first time there would be the possibility to bring criminals to justice within the clan community. Of course this would only apply to those clans that accept the CoT, but it would be a first step. I do see the problems that will surely arise, but I do not see any other option unless we want to decay into barbarism.

Omni-Tek and the Neutrals are called upon to constitute their own independent courts. It will be a long and hard road, but without justice there can be no peace.

[Dabblez]

I don't see much evidence of the Clans looking out for the environment more than OT, I don't see much evidence of the Clanners acting more ethically than OT. I must have missed that episode. What I do see is Clanners mining Rubi-Ka for what its worth, killing rhinoman, killing yuttos, killing neutrals. I am not saying OT is any better, but maybe you might want to get off that high horse, huh?

The example of Omni brutality you quote are 360 years old. Empires have risen and fallen in less time, slave owning nations turned into bastionsof democracy. It's a long time to hold a grudge.

I do understand the Clans desire for self-rule. But you know, you have that already... had that for centuries. As long as we are agreed that you rule the North and Omni the South and that Omni-Tek is not going to be subject to planetary Clan government I am sure a reasonable settlement between OTRK and the new CoT can be reached.

Savoy