NT unplayable in PVP

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Garak
NT's got the most nerfs?
I don't think so.

Nt's nerfs:
Range
Pillows

Uh, no. In Beta Humidity Extractors were nerfed as well. Let me put it to you in a way big bad Soldier boy will understand. NTs rely on Range. RELY! Pillows were one of the few ways to buff Matter Creation. Unlike Soldiers who have Assault Rifle buffs, NTs have no Matter Creation buffs. Unlike Soldiers who can be buffed by Traders, NTs cannot overequip their spells. Unlike Soldiers who have unlimited ammo, our spells are dependant on our Nano Pool.

Tee Hee

Soldier nerfs:
Mk shield
Deflection shield
Burst
Full auto
Sunburst
Tank armor

2 vs 6.. Soldier wins.

Also, NT's were "improved" one patch. Soldier never were.

MK Shield: It was nerfed because Soldiers were running up to Deep Reds and just tanking to kill monsters. Mk Shield is STILL the best defensive skill in the game. It should go to Enforcers.

Deflection Shield: Same as above.

Burst: Burst is still the second best attack in the game.

FullAuto: Still the single best attack in the game. I was *too* good when it used every bullet in your weapon instead of "up to 5" like it does now.

Sunburst: They removed burst. So what. The damage output on the Suburst was TOO HIGH with burst on it reletive to it's speed. It's hardly a nerf since you still have Plasma Burners, Stieners, and Flashpoints. Gee, the best weapons in the game are Soldier weapons.

Tank Armor: Hmm, lets think about this logically. Tank Armor doubles your nano cost.... so now you can't cast things unless your nano pool has Cost of Nano x2. Wow, it's called Logic.


You could sit here and count 6 to 3 nerfs (and there is more, I just didn't want to mention them) all day long. The simple fact remains that the best weapons in the game are Assault Rifles. The simple fact remains that the best defensive spell in the game is MK Shield. The simple fact remails that Elite Armor is one of the highest AC armors in the game (q75 nano armor has about the same AC as q55 Senpai. Think about that).

Conclusion: Soldiers can Tank better then any other class and deal the most damage, even after they were balanced. LOL, and you have the nerve to bring this up.

And if you consider 150 life and 100 AC an "improvment" then you are really off your rocker.

[_______________Garak]

Originally posted by Lucid Flow


Uh, no. In Beta Humidity Extractors were nerfed as well. Let me put it to you in a way big bad Soldier boy will understand. NTs rely on Range. RELY! Pillows were one of the few ways to buff Matter Creation. Unlike Soldiers who have Assault Rifle buffs, NTs have no Matter Creation buffs. Unlike Soldiers who can be buffed by Traders, NTs cannot overequip their spells. Unlike Soldiers who have unlimited ammo, our spells are dependant on our Nano Pool.

Tee Hee



MK Shield: It was nerfed because Soldiers were running up to Deep Reds and just tanking to kill monsters. Mk Shield is STILL the best defensive skill in the game. It should go to Enforcers.

Deflection Shield: Same as above.

Burst: Burst is still the second best attack in the game.

FullAuto: Still the single best attack in the game. I was *too* good when it used every bullet in your weapon instead of "up to 5" like it does now.

Sunburst: They removed burst. So what. The damage output on the Suburst was TOO HIGH with burst on it reletive to it's speed. It's hardly a nerf since you still have Plasma Burners, Stieners, and Flashpoints. Gee, the best weapons in the game are Soldier weapons.

Tank Armor: Hmm, lets think about this logically. Tank Armor doubles your nano cost.... so now you can't cast things unless your nano pool has Cost of Nano x2. Wow, it's called Logic.


You could sit here and count 6 to 3 nerfs (and there is more, I just didn't want to mention them) all day long. The simple fact remains that the best weapons in the game are Assault Rifles. The simple fact remains that the best defensive spell in the game is MK Shield. The simple fact remails that Elite Armor is one of the highest AC armors in the game (q75 nano armor has about the same AC as q55 Senpai. Think about that).

Conclusion: Soldiers can Tank better then any other class and deal the most damage, even after they were balanced. LOL, and you have the nerve to bring this up.

And if you consider 150 life and 100 AC an "improvment" then you are really off your rocker.

Why do you post all taht crap?

I said you were wrong and soldier's got more nerfs.. You didn't prove otherwise.
And I meant from release. Beta does not count. Nerfs in beta are just fine and are to be expected. Nerfs in release should not happen unless they are absolutely neccasary, which none of the Soldier PvM related nerfs were (except exploits).

More or less all of what you said is wrong.. It's no big deal. I mean you play a NT, why the hell would you know anything about Soldiers. I don't pretend to know everythign about NT's. I don't play one.
You know nothing about soldiers.. Why blather on about them.

Here's a few points:
"The simple fact remails that Elite Armor is one of the highest AC armors in the game (q75 nano armor has about the same AC as q55 Senpai. Think about that)."

Elite armor = Nano armor. Exact same AC. Both are equaly rare. Same reqs too.

Infact, every single armor in the game str/sta vs int/psy or vs any stat armor has the exact same total AC. I mean equal armor, obviously Nano armor, elite armor and steel ribbed are the tops. But each lvl, each type has an equal to it.

"Conclusion: Soldiers can Tank better then any other class and deal the most damage, even after they were balanced. LOL, and you have the nerve to bring this up."

Where did I say soldier were unbalance? I said they got the most nerfs.. That's it.
Tank better than any class? wrong.

Enforcers are the best tanks. Best hp, better hp buffs. Better Nanos all around. At lvl 75, they get about 600 hp more with equal lvl buffs. Not to mention mongo slam is the only taunt that actualy works.
Soldier taunt does nothing. That alone makes them THE tanks, not soldiers.
Mk shield a joke to use in regular fighting. Ohh great i can use up all nano x2, have to cancle deflect shield, take off tank armor.. Than I can be powerful for a litle while. Well killing somethin every 2 minuits isn't exactly good xp.
It's better in PvP.. But PvP is not the entire game.

Most damage?
Wrong again.
Enforcers do the most damage over time. By quite a bit at higher lvls. Novaflows start to suck.. But hammer still deal good dmg cuz there slower but hit much harder.

Burst 2nd best special in the game?
LOL.
My burst does around 500 dmg.
My regular shot does 1000+.
Hell, even flingshot is better than burst..
Burst is one of the worse skills in the game.

And this.. This just proves your an idiot, or really stoned or something:
"And if you consider 150 life and 100 AC an "improvment" then you are really off your rocker."

Yes infact I do. What do you think it is,, a nerf? Disadvantage?
Dude. your the one off your rocker.

But maybe youll get your way and your health and AC will be reduced, I guess youd consider that an "improvement".. Since u don't the other way around.

[TaintStain]

You have brougth this upon yourelfs, using the insane range and DMG output to exploit this game in every way possible.
I can not even count the times I have been rooted and killed instantly from grid/whomp camping NT's, every single time I have petitioned, so has everyone else I know who had this happen to them. I have seen NT's standing 100 meters away from the blaster beetle in VW, killing him time and again with no peril, allthough that is none of my bussiness so I have not said anything about that but you can count in that there are MANY ppl out there that felt it unfair. Prepatch NT's were friggin GODS, and they did nothing to hide the fact, a bit more subtlety and this change had never occured...

Nerfing the NT in favor of 11 other classes is sound thinking, I think FC rather see that 5% of their customers is mad rather then 95%, go figure.... (this kinda goes against some of my later statements, its prolly a part of the experiment we cannot fathom)

I play a soldier BTW, and I got hit hard also, had to dump lots of IP into nanopool, and I will prolly drop the tank armor alltogether...

And to thoose who say Assault rifles are the best weapons in the game, have you ever seen a high ql shotgun? I have played with traders whos weapons crit way higher then my FA, quite often too, and shotgun is only one attack skill so can be kept higher. I really wish my soldier would have gone for shotgun, weird as it may seem, they outdmg even the massive nukes and they do dmg pretty fast. Same gl shotgun is higher dmg then my flashpoint at 4 times the speed, not to mention that shotguns are easy to find at all Ql's wereas nova anf flashpoints is so rare as to be nonexistent, I have had my nova for over 30 lvl, and im kinda tired of it.

Final point has to be..
Game set match, no one wins, everyone looses.....
And this game aint gonna be around for that much longer anyway, every customer service error known to science has been made by FC, and they have even researched some new ones. Just to bad about all the ppl working there being used in some weird experiment and then being kicked out as soon as it shows exactly what it was supposed to from the beginning. Because, and beleive this, no one can make so many errors without it being intentional, there just aint no way!!! Sorry to have to break this to you ppl...

Your friend in agony and despair.
Ferret

[___________Harlequin]

this page has a nice overview of the different armors and the respective ac values;
http://home.rose.net/~tnix/aoarmor.html

is nano armor as useful as omni elite in "normal" combat, no.
is omni elite as useful as nano armor the minute you meet a critter doing disease damage, no (then again, i've yet to meet a critter doing disease damage, but you never know)

different armor for different uses, and whatever abilities you max out will give you a hit in one or more ACs, nano armor is just a little weaker against a fairly common damage type, imo i have no big problem with that (if chem/proj damage is that important, go back to waitt armor, it's still viable, though it doesn't look half as nice)
i disagree on humidity extractors being nerfed, i though the upgrade funcom did was pretty good compared to the old extractors, wich were rather gimpy to say the least, and as for the enframs line, i'd say any improvement is better than nothing, though it would be nice to actually be able to get them once in a while, as the three i've gotten have been from a MA friend that just seems to find them all over the place, though i've yet to see them a single time either as loot or rewards in missions (spent a lot of time searching as well, even with mission diff varied between 50-90%, not a single sighting so far)

now, as far as the NT class goes, a lot are crying "nerf!" right now because NTs have been given quite a few slaps over the wrist over the last couple of months, taking it as far as making NTs nothing but snipers with less HP than a normal agent, and with less armor.
imo, this is a bad thing, as NTs based on the description are nano proficient soldiers, we're not supposed to soak up anywhere near as much damage as normal soldiers, we're supposed to be able to finish the fight before our health runs out (wich means pretty damn quickly)
up to now, we were rather efficient artillery (wich imo is a fault, but you adapt to what you're able to do) and we could fill that role quite well given we either had a doc near us or knew when to root and run.
a lot of enforcers/soldiers/MAs seem to have a problem with seeing a character who can't absorb their limit of damage as a working combat class, and therefore dismiss the NTs as non-viable soldiers, hence the "you're not supposed to be able to take things out like that, stop whining" attitude.
this (imo) is equally flawed thinking, as we ARE supposed to rival you tanks as combat units, we're supposed to be just as good at it actually (if you go by the official AO guide, we're actually supposed to be better at it)
now, if you want balance, that probably means we'll have to be able to match a tank's efficiency in battle, and guess what, if we have 1/3 of your hitpoints, we have to compensate by doing more damage. this will mean that if a NT fights a critter, and a soldier is standing next to him fighting an exact copy of the same critter, in order for the fight to be "fair" the NT will have killed the critter 3 times as fast. why you ask?, because the NT will be dead 3 times as fast, no huge leap in logic, just benefits vs disadvantages.
as the game stands today, this is impossible, no argument needed.
now, if we filter in twink options for a "pure" NT versus the same on a enforcer or soldier (wich stereotypically would mean a homo nano NT vs an atrox soldier/enforcer) there is no contest.
we have skill checks on everything when cast (wich i have no problems with) wich means that we either have to drag a MP around with us at all times to stay twinked, or we simply have to make due with what our implants, pillows (though i don't use them myself) and generic buffs can do, both in terms of nanos and armor (as most NTs would go the cyber/nano route, though biomech also works as you can get it in stores)
soldiers/enforcers/MAs have feline grace, headcracker (and variants), the varios mastery nanos, +15 sense buffs (forgot the name), brawl buffs, wranglers, IC, enforcer hp/str buffs and so on, leading to serious twink options, not forgetting you can get pretty much every armor you'll ever need up to q125 in the stores apart from omni elite armor.
once again, i would have little to no problems with that, given there was balance to the equation, but guess what, there isn't.
oh, and let's not forget the fact that our attacks are totally dependant on our nanopool, if we run out of nano, we're dead in the water, a nice tradeoff for high damage output, much like our low hitpoint count.
and as it stands, i pay 36k for 150 charges, wich equates to about one charge per kill i do (green-orange) and 2 charges if i do a nuke-bewilder-nuke-bewilder-recharge routine on anything bigger than that (anything over dark orange will **** me before i ever get a chance to bewilder the 2-3 times i need to get a success due to the insane amount of counters critters do after the latest patch, a green trader countered 4 casts in a row no more than 30 minutes ago, and that's very bad for any NT)
this means i pay 250c for ever critter i kill (the humidity extractor just isn't fast enough at level 63, and i'll need another 5-10 levels to get to use the efficient extractor, for some reason there is a large gap between the 50 point and the 102 point extractor)
and at 500c+ for anything over yellow. can you claim to have an overhead like that for every kill as a soldier, or have you ever found yourself looking at the ammo counter going "****, when this clip is gone, i'm a dead man"?
only class i can think of that might rival us in costs must be docs, who have even less combat efficiency as far as pure damage output goes.

then we have max damage, and as you might have noticed, NT nanos, much like normal weapons, have minimum as well as maximum damage potential, and as things are now, we do minimum damage roughly 50% of the time (that we actually hit mind you). at my level, the maximum damage i can do with one nuke is 1100 points, casting time is 9secs, and chances are i'll only do max damage once every 15-20th cast. and in those casts i can promise you i'll have fumbled at least twice, and how many times it would have been countered is specualtion at this point as i simply haven't played enough after the new patch to give any worthwhile semi-accurate estimate on it, but let's go for 2-3, wich should be more or less correct, give or take a couple.
now, casting just one of those nukes, how many times to you think a critter beating on me has hit me, counting buggy encounters i'd be taking one 60-80 point hit every second, if not divide that nuber by half, then look at my hitpoint count of 850 or so (maxed body pool and stamina)
now, the average critter having around 2k hitpoints if not more, i'll be dead a long time before it is, so i do fail to see how i'm doing too much damage.
now if i go toe-to-toe against a soldier at my level in a pvp zone, it won't exactly take a genious to see that with my current damage output and health, i'd be dead if you even looked at me before i'd gotten off my first nuke and rooted you when you were well out of range, as all you pretty much need to do is burst me once and i'd be a dead man. (with the old rules)
now factor in the new rules, you do 3 special attacks in 1 sec, even if they are all capped, you still rip me to shreds.. what can i do, stand there like an idiot, maybe rooting you if you're an enforcer and nuke until my nano runs out.
if i'm fighting a healing class, forget it.
if i'm fighting a melee non-healing class, i *might* stand a chance if i keep hitting you with nanos that don't cost too much, but then again, if you've got a decent (note: decent, not good) set of armor, i'm still a dead man if the person in question uses a firstaid kit as soon as the first nano hits, he should have recharged his firstaid before the third nuke hits, and counting refreshing roots, we should be out of nano by the 4th or 5th nuke/cast.

as i've said before, i'm not looking for the nerf bat to be taken out again against other classes, there has been way too much of that done allready (and grats to the MPs, nice to see a casting class actually get "fixed") , but i would like to see funcom make up it's mind about what they want the NT class to be, if nothing else just give a valid response to the issue here on the boards where people can read it, and not these word-of-mouth myths we keep hearing about someone at a devchat saying this and that etc.
we have a NT board now, post an official statement there, no big deal imo.

and to end this nightmare'ish rant, a simple fix on the NT damage output, just adjust the casting times, and maybe the nano cost.
no big workaround needed, just tweak the casting times on your internal test network or on the test servers until we can tank damage as well, as that's what the range cap has forced every NT to do now, as the damage scaling on the different nanos is pretty good.
as i said, personally i can live with the range nerf (or adjustment if you will) and i actually think the pvp damage adjustment was a good thing, now you need to adress the implications of your changes, and quickly, as this isn't the first time classes have been left out in the cold after a shortsighted patch.
oh, and one more thing, right now, doing missions i'll get max 25k creds as a reward on a greed mission, i'll burn roughly 20-30 charges on one mission, equating to a loss of about 6-8k (not counting treatment charges)
this leaves me with somewhere between 15-18k after a mission, and i need about 150k to afford one nano in the store at my level. ( we can upgrade about 3-5 nanos every 5-6 levels, don't think i need to say much more, though fixing the missions would be a good thing)

right, rant mode off, hoping someone takes the time to read through that and make some comments on it

[______________Mascot]

Saying we were gods pre-patch is just stupid. Saying we exploited by actually USING the range we had, is equally stupid.

I haven't seen a blaster beetle since I was having a hard time in snake pit, so I dunno what level it really is. But let's assume an above middle POD mob.

I use my range and root. I fumble the root and the mob comes running. Luckily my second root holds and mob is still not in range due to my range extender. Then for a nuke, nuke hits for about 1/10 of the mob's health. Root breaks and I recast it. I'm now at about half nano and the mob is at 1/10 health. I switch to secondary nano (higher damage output over time than the main nuke, but it seems such a waste to never use the main one) and nuke/root till I'm almost out of nano. The mob is now at somewhere around half health. At this point I gotto move in a bit closer, cast bewilder and recharge nano. Then start yet again.

Depending on exactly how red the mob is this can take anywhere from 2-5 bewilder and nano recharges before it's dead. I'm not even counting fumbles and counters into the nano usage.

No risk? BS. Any time you cast root 20 times some are bound to fail. The second that high red mob is in range the NT is instant toast. Toe to toe we can barely survive greens while other professions can survive oranges and low reds consistently (yes, I know friends of other professions doing this, so I'm not just guessing).

Now, this is called balance. We're toast at close range, so we're given an opportunity to keep the opponent at range. It's far from free of risk, but it's doable.

FuryFerret: You dumped lotsa IP into nanopool cause of this patch? Hello, tank armor added to IP cost *before* patch, it just wasn't in the description.. "Insane range and damage"? Have you been living under a rock? There might be one profession having less of a damage output than NTs, but I'd be hard pressed to name one. We had *one* advantage. Range. Our damage isn't much to brag about, but we could use skill to stay out of range. Now we can't even do that. We die instantly when another profession gets within range of us. So where does that leave us? Completely nerfed, as opposed to very difficult to play as we were before. BTW if being rooted bothered you, and you feel this made NTs have an unfair advantage, I guess you were never rooted by an agent with a range extender, then hit with aimed shot for 70% of your health.

[_______________spydr]

Well, with my (now) 34 NT, I just got done hunting.

To start out with, we had a:
32 Soldier
35 MA
33 NT (thats me!)
38 Agent

The only person who died was me. Twice. I only had the mob aggro me 3 times, and stay alive long enough to do >50% damage. This is with the agent poping it in the butt, and soldier attacking with his gun, and the MA healing me/attacking it. I died 2/3rds of the time I got aggroed for any length of time (like 5 seconds).
*funfun*

During this hunting party, I was useful, but only as artillery. A few times, my nuking the mob for 480 really helped, but most of the time, I could have just not been there, and they would have spend a few more seconds on the mob to kill it.

I have a low-light targeting scope (low level..I useit with the help of implants and only little IP investment) and a movement predictor (same as with the scope). My mausser has a longer range than my nukes (with the range extender on), but only by a meter or so. At least I have a fairly decent indication of when I can start nukeing now. My single most useful contribution to the party was my 21-per-tick humidity extractor.

Wanna know who did the most damage? The agent. Then the soldier, then the MA, then me. Wanna know who spent the most money on consumables during this little hunting trip? Me. I burned 10 q20 nanochargers (I got them free in a misison..so why not?), 5 q30 nanochargers, and about 20 q30 medpacks.
I think the MA used a q30 nanocharger or two. The soldier and the agent probably used up 100c worth of ammo, each. I don't know how many medpacks everyone else used, but it wasn't much.

I saw the soldier do a crit with his gun that did 490 damage. During that whole hunting trip, Glacial Advance (288-580) rarely broke 450, and once or twice, I got in the 500s.

I'm not an especially good NT, but I'm not bad, either. What I thought was funny was that the soldier never even came close to dieing, and he must not have upgraded his armor in forever, because my AC was nearly twice his. Go figure.

NT's are UBER!!!

[______________Sredni]

Why do people always make out like soldiers are uber twinking into high ql weapons? And in the next sentance you say how we're uber because we have FA. Well to use FA we switch weapons, and when we switch weapons geuss what, we have to buff ourselves into our weapons.
It's agents and Traders who have double or triple their level in weapon ql.

The reason they gimped NT range to 40 was because NT's were sitting atop trees and buildings outside of everyone elses range. They would then root and nuke people to death with no threat whatsoever to themselves. Get over it.

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Sredni
The reason they gimped NT range to 40 was because NT's were sitting atop trees and buildings outside of everyone elses range. They would then root and nuke people to death with no threat whatsoever to themselves. Get over it.

They simply hit us with a double whammy. Not only do we have to tank an opponent now (with this lame range crap) but it's mathmatically impossible for us to kill most classes with the amount of nano we have.

The last patch excluded us from PVP, and thats what the fuss is about. We can't go buy 10k nano bullets have have infinite nano like soldiers. And if we could, it would be 5k per bullet the way nano chargers cost.

[TaintStain]

It is as always in matters like this, a few ppl mess up fo a whole lot others. I kinda liked the NT mega 2-4k dmg nukes, and their insane rage, as long as they were in my team I do realize you guys were heavily nerfed, but the same rules should apply to you as to everyone else. Max range for weapons has always been 40 meters, no matter how many yatamutchi's or LLS you use, can not see any balance why this should not be equal for all classes.

As to the Blaster beetle, yes its the one in snake pit, i estimate its lvl 130 or so, with around 20k hp. I do not know what you did wrong with your NT, but i have seen a lvl 70 NT killing him several times in a row, agreeably there migth have been some peril invovled. But as soon as sekond root fails the beetle is still so far away that his pathing can not keep up with you running in a straigth line. Run for a while and try it all ower, what 2 NT's could kill, by switching aggro se they both could recharge from time t o time, well pretty much anything. (ohh, and he is melee only).. And please dont say this is wrong because I have seen it so many times so I know it for true, NT's were friggin gods pre-patch, no other class could kill ANYTHING, and I do mean anything, cyborg colonels, no biggie for a lvl 90-100NT.

I can not under any cicrumstanses ever, kill a con orange/yellow mob, my lvl 99 soldier will get raped in hurry by most things that I get XP for. But this is the case fo most classes at higher lvls, there is no way to keep track of mobs AC increase, anything red I will hit for min dmg, (that is 2 points!!!!!!). I have a ql 144 nova and my attack rating is above 540, no matter.

Funcom saying that you cold solo this game all the way is a blatant lie, a few classes migth, thoose who can heal, but no other.

I also play a lvl 43 crat so if anyone ever wants to get into an argument who is the most nerfed, ill take it up anytime.

Yours
Ferret