What I Find Ironic.

[____________Fakonamo]

How are they oppressing you? Sure they are killing neutral like me, but how are they ruling Tir?

How are they a threat to you? Are they attacking you at all? Or are they just a threat to your cause?

btw, I never said you attacked them because they dont agree with your policies, but rather because you dont agree with theirs. There is a difference, they arent killing you even though they dont agree with you. Maybe they should.

[Cemetarygate]

Uwen, there are six 'original' clan causes we are fighting for. While you personally may be focusing on democracy, or that being your guilds primary goal, why cannot others focus on the other five? Why do you chose to ignore them? You cannot even acknowledge them.

[UwensBack]

Please enlighten me as to the other 4 goals, the two I know are democracy and ensuring OmniTek doesn't oppress us again. I have never heard of other ideals that the first clanners were fighting for. So, please tell me, what are they?

[Cemetarygate]

As to the original concepts we clans are fighting for.

- Ability to own, wear and speak what we wish.
- Abolish all slavery.
- Distribute the income from Notum mining equally amongst the people of Rubi-Ka.
- Elected governing body over the entire planet. (i.e. Democracy)
- Free and impartial press.
- Free travel throughout the planet without persecution.


(( Taken from the manual that came with the game at launch (original 11.0 disk). When I bought my special edition and notum wars packages neither of them came with that manual. Also, not sure if the PDF manual still has those listed. ))

[UwensBack]

Well I agree with all those. Are you saying the Sentinels support any of those? Aside from notum mining and possibly slavery, they don't care about any of those.

-Ability to own, wear, and speak what we wish

The Sentinels threaten and terrorize people who speak out against them.

-Elected governing body over the entire planet. (i.e. Democracy)

Um, in case anyone hasn't noticed, no one voted for Silverstone. He's a dictator. A military dictator.

- Free and impartial press.

Haven't seen any free and impartial press from either OmniTek or the Clans. The most impartial, free press I've ever seen is the Independent Rubi Kan News.

And to the laughable finale

- Free travel throughout the planet without persecution.

Hahaha. In case anyone doesn't know, the Sentinels shoot not only Omni's who come to Tir, but neutrals as well. I would call that persecution.

Now, while there isn't any evidence they don't want to abolish slavery, there no evidence that they want to either.

The only one they possibly agree with is the equal distribution of notum. But only equal for Sentinels and Sentinel supporters. They don't want OmniTek or neutrals to have it. So I guess they don't even support that.

So we have 5 things they do not support and 1 we don't know. I'll focus on all 6, though some more than others, but that still doesnt mean the Sentinels support any of these.

((I downloaded the game and never read the manual so I never saw that ))

[Ensignm]

Originally posted by Savoy
1. Under the terms of the Tir Accord, Omni-Pol had every right to go to Tir to cincuct investigations. This is something the CoT agreed to, not a unilateral OT decision. If you think a few rotten apples in OP absued of this priveledge, there are proper ways of dealing with these issues. Where would we be if every nation in history staged a civil war every time a dirty cop was exposed?

2. Growing OT threat? What growing OT threat? Where do you see this increasing threat? All I see is militant clans overthrowing the CoT and the Sentinels staging a coup in Tir. If anything it's the rest of Rubi-Ka that is worried about the increased clan militancy.

Let's for the sake of argument assume Omni-Tek didn't declare the accord to be null and void because if we don't Omni-Pol wouldn't have had a valid argument to be there to begin with.

1.
Omni-Pol has that right if and when the CoT has been duely noted before hand only in the case of national security and only after consultation of the CoT. The disapearance of the CoT doesn't change that, Omni-Tek shoud have thought of the posibility that the CoT was incomunicado before they signed the Tir accord.
We all know how OT handles rotten apples. You fire the assasin of a friendly head of state and then you hire him again the next day and for the next few years or so you use that as an excuse when people complain about the lack of disciplinary action against OT employees violating corporate law, the Tir accord, ICC regulations and international regulations. Corporate justice in it's finest hour.

2.
Isn't the increasing war rethorics by Omni-Tek personel a growing threat? Isn't the fact that they ran amok when they had the chance prove enough of an increasing threath? Isn't the fact that Boss Ross has shown in the past year he has 0 control over his employees a huge threath to our security? I think it is.

[Dabblez]

1. If you do not trust Omni-Pol and have evidence to support it, try bringing your case to Omni-Admin, or Omni-Prime, or even the ICC. The ICC has rules in favour of clans before. YOu would not have scanner technology if it were not for them overruling OT.

2. The only recent instance I can think of was a somewhat ill-judged OTSEC ultimatum asking to the clans to disarm. Nothing much came of that. Beyond that there is hardly been any change in the OT rhetoric.

The clans have no reason to trust OT. OT has gone back on its word many times in the past. However to claim that today are clans face greater danger of OT aggression now is just inflamatory and fundamentally untrue.

[Cemetarygate]

Uwen, the list I've shown is to remind my fellow clanspersons what we're fighting for; that we are not just fighting for democracy. No clan is obligated to fight for all our causes. The Sentinels should be treated no different in this regard, but yet they are. So, pointing out which topics the Sentinels are not doing is irrelevant and inflammetory.

When the CoT had guards in Tir, they attacked Omni-Tek employees that entered. The Sentinels are doing the same. Yet, the Sentinels are being persecuted for this. Why are they being treated any different than the CoT guards? The Sentinels should be given the same respect as the CoT guards that were once there.

As far as the Sentinels attacking neutral aligned persons. Many clans don't, nor ever have, trusted neutral persons. Those persons did not speak their minds, attempting free speech, for fear of persecution. The Sentinels are not only speaking their minds, but taking action against those who do not support our causes. We are fighting for free speech and you look down on the Sentinels for speaking out against those that don't support our causes?

Silverstone is leader of the Sentinels. Their governing form may very well be a dictatorship. How exactly does that translate into him wanting to dictate over all clans? Where exactly did Silverstone state his intentions is to rule all of Rubi-Ka? To the best of my knowledge, his stated purpose in Tir was to give clans back our capitial city. Which is exactly what the Sentinals have done and are doing.

(( I checked the online PDF manual. Doesn't have any of the propaganda the original manual had either. There's about 20 pages of stuff that talk about the clans and Omni-Tek, mobs and equipment. With spare time, I was thinking about scanning the 20 pages or so and posting them on my site. Some interesting stuff there I'm sure some might enjoy. ))

[______________Damian]

Seems harse times under the oppresion of the power hungry Sentinels rule.. they are killing thier own people. The other Clans are fighting among themselves. Many say they only seek freedom under the various Clan Flag. Freedom from what? a corp that gives you everything you need and urges you to do whatever you can to hold power for yourself and Omni-Tek. Remember there is safty and Freedom availible .
Omni-Tek Protects
Omni-Tek does not kill there own.
Omni-Tek will treat you as an equal and help guide you to great power and anything you seek can be yours.

If you look deep you will see the truth, the dark side of Rubi-Ka is the clan terriory. Come back to the ones that brought you here and made Rubi-Ka your home... Omni- Tek will welcome you into the fold with open arms.

Torrant-
Free Dedicated Omni-Tek Employee

[Bionitrous]

On cannot be redeemed without having fallen. Silverstone has eaten the apple, worms and all. He has become his enemy. Not only does the Lord work in mysterious ways, but so does his arch nemesis.

Redemption for the Clans as a whole must occur if they wish to take their place as true Angels of Light on all planes of existence.

Pride
Avarice
Envy
Wrath
Lust
Gluttony
Sloth

Too many influential Clans ascribe to one or more of these Deadly Sins to ever be considered 'enlightened' at this point in time.

((If you get my drift))

[____________Fakonamo]

Originally posted by Bionitrous
On cannot be redeemed without having fallen.

IC:

Unless you believe in Original Sin wherein everyone needs to be redeemed even without doing anything except existing. I dont buy into it myself, but there it is. (I guess you could argue that you have fallen simply by being born, but thats depressing)

Not to turn this into a religous debate, but there is also a difference between redemtion and enlightenment. Clans can indeed be enlightened (even in a non-religous sense) but still not be redeemed. Furthermore, while in a Judeo-Christian ethic system those 7 Sins are indeed bad, thats not the case in all religons or ethic systems. Its possible to be redeemed under one system and not under another, go figure.

Besides, those "sins" you have mentioned are often times great motivators for good actions, although some would argue that the actions are tainted by the sin that motivated it. If wrath drives you to remove (kill, put in jail etc) a truely evil person, is it wrong? If you envy a benevelent person and try to emulate those good deeds, are they wrong?

While things like "Angels of Light", "enlightenment" and "redemption" make nice catch phrases they really dont add any substance as the situation an ethical questions involved in the RK conflict are much more complex.

Food for thought....


ooc:

Sorry, all those years of Jesuit education and ethics/philosophy classes in college made me do it. Feel free to ignore me