My Stance (IC)

[Fixerben]

Originally posted by Lady Kali
We've tried all other ways.

Still creating another problem is not the way to solve a situation. Didnt your mother ever tell you:

"Two wrongs, dont make a Right"?

It still stands true even after man has been around for 30 millenia.

[___________Lady Kali]

Originally posted by Strax

Instead you chose a very ham handed, violent way of protesting the actions of some Clans, and caught up people into this conflict that bore you no ill will.

Diplomacy was tried. Complaints have been issued. Talks and negotiations were asked for. None of this has worked. Nothing has changed. Neutrals were not taken seriously, and in fact largely ignored and ridiculed further by the agressive groups. I saw NONE of the aggresive clans being brought to be held accountablefor their actions by the clan community. All other avenues of protest HAVE BEEN TAKEN. Consider that.

As much as the neutral friendly groups have done their best- and I applaud them and hold them in high respect- diplomacy has failed to resolve the problem of unprovoked Clan attacks on neutral organizations as well as the removal of Silverstone from Tir.

[Silinary]

I believe there is another saying ...

"Ignoring a problem will only make it worse."

Can you honestly tell me the recent clan actions vs the sentinals would have taken course without this news? There are many points in my thread that wern't read or ignored. I believe it is important to read and understand what is read before posting a reply. To not do so is disrespectful and you lose credibility.

I give everyone a basic amount of respect. It appears many chose to throw it in my face, and to that, I say is their choice. But do't be surpised when events blindside you.

Ben, if you chose to take the stance you have, then I am your target because I support it. What other ways do you propose that we should have gone about it?

quote from strax:

How about instead of hiring the Mercs to kill all Clan who enter NLC, hire them instead to take out the Sentinels? Or to protect your guards from attack? I rather doubt you'd get this much negative reaction to such a move. Instead you chose a very ham handed, violent way of protesting the actions of some Clans, and caught up people into this conflict that bore you no ill will.


As for being the Neuts best friend; Without the Clan rebellion from Omni there would be no Neutrals. No Newland. No Borealis. You're welcome.

We have done this ina way ... EO is a merc org themselves. We were hired to kill Steel. We did so. We, and IRK, were attacked by clan orgs (such as DSoT) for assulting Tir. I'm sorry Strax, but because of this, we will not touch the clan issue in their own city. It is something they will have to resolve on their own. Haveing a double set of guards to protect the ICC guards would perhaps be a more favorable option, but that option wasnt' givin. It was this deal or nothing. A little protection is better then none. It may be a leaky boat, but it still floats.

The current members in the Clans are no more similar to the forebarers then us neutrals. Some say the neutrals fight for what was originally the clan's goal. How can that be? We fight for our freedom and Independence.... or is that just it? Neutrals would exist reguardless of that rebellion or not. I owe you nothing, and I ask of nothing.

Viray, think about something. All the people on this planet mine Notum. Even the Clanners. But the refinement and processing of the Notum is TOTALLY done by OTRK. So, in a sense we all still work for Omni-Tek.

Philip Ross's own words stated that Neutrals are to be considered Omni-Tek employees 'until' they cease to be profitable to the corporation.

Therefore as long as you are mining Notum, you are profiting OTRK, and being Neutral puts you into the category of being considered "an Omni-Tek employee 'until' you no longer profit the corporation."

So by clans mining notum .. they are in fact worknig for OTRK ... intresting. I thought they were tryign to fight OT, but they hand all their notum to them? I'd hazard a guess the ICC can ship it off world as well. May cost more then the notum guns hurling it into space, but its still a way out. We don't give notum to OTRK. I'm suprised to find out the clans do.


Funny how OTRK organized all this ... ICC deregulated mining .. but .. everything must go to OTRK for processing ... so they still make a profit, and do less and all the little slaves stay in line... intresting.

I don't think it works that way Ben.


Omni may consider us employees, we know we are not. If that keeps them off our back, then let them think that. I know when I go to try and wear omni-pol armor, the armor won't attach itself as it would to an omni employee... it sits there an immobile piece of junk. So untill I can wear the Elite armor ... I'm not Omni.

Funny tho ... you show outrage that we support this and then imply we are omni ... so therefor justified of the hate. You are a work of art. Good luck promoting peace when you yourself is slightly biased.

[_______________Viray]

"Eye for an Eye"

You can give old adtages all day to prove your point or cause.

Unfortunately no one can tell one specific clan org. from another.

((Yeah I know we all wear name tags over our heads, but a game mechanic shouldn't determine every factor our our characters, sure you can tell Clan, from Omni, and Neutral from either of the other two... there may be a difference noticable ie. clothing, mannerisms, etc.))

So the Mercenaries can only base it on faction, and not specific Orgs., if they could target specific people/Orgs. then we'd be all fine and dandy, but unfortunately that wasn't the offer presented.

[___________Lady Kali]

Originally posted by Fixerben


Still creating another problem is not the way to solve a situation. Didnt your mother ever tell you:

"Two wrongs, dont make a Right"?

It still stands true even after man has been around for 30 millenia.

No, what im saying is that we've tried and use all means of defense that you would suggest as alternatives.

[BigGreen]

Originally posted by Silinar
I believe there is another saying ...


We have done this ina way ... EO is a merc org themselves. We were hired to kill Steel. We did so. We, and IRK, were attacked by clan orgs (such as DSoT) for assulting Tir. I'm sorry Strax, but because of this, we will not touch the clan issue in their own city. It is something they will have to resolve on their own. Haveing a double set of guards to protect the ICC guards would perhaps be a more favorable option, but that option wasnt' givin. It was this deal or nothing. A little protection is better then none. It may be a leaky boat, but it still floats.

The current members in the Clans are no more similar to the forebarers then us neutrals. Some say the neutrals fight for what was originally the clan's goal. How can that be? We fight for our freedom and Independence.... or is that just it? Neutrals would exist reguardless of that rebellion or not. I owe you nothing, and I ask of nothing.


Omni may consider us employees, we know we are not. If that keeps them off our back, then let them think that. I know when I go to try and wear omni-pol armor, the armor won't attach itself as it would to an omni employee... it sits there an immobile piece of junk. So untill I can wear the Elite armor ... I'm not Omni.

Funny tho ... you show outrage that we support this and then imply we are omni ... so therefor justified of the hate. You are a work of art. Good luck promoting peace when you yourself is slightly biased.

If as you say this is a Clan issue and one we will have to resolve on our own, then I fail to see how you can be outraged by the Tir situation. If it is not your problem, why be offended? I assert that it is indeed your problem almost as much as it is ours. We have seen our capitol taken over by a group of thugs, and you are getting killed as a result. How is this not your problem? However, if you won't help fix the situation, then I don't see how you can complain about it.

"Neutrals would exist reguardless of that rebellion or not." Patently false. Omni Tek would roll right over you if we were defeated. Your past, current and future existence depends on Clan being there as a bigger threat to Omni.

"I owe you nothing, and I ask of nothing. "
I am not asking for any compensation. I do not think that is appropriate. A little gratitude would be nice, even givin the current situation. At minimum though, I think that killing the people whose existence guarantees your independence is pretty short sighted.

I don't think that you are worthy of hate, Omni or otherwise. I don't hate you. I do consider you hostile. Your recent actions have shown this.

[Jynne]

There is a war on.

A lot of neutrals are talking about their rights... but as they say, "War does not determine who is right, but who is left."

Neutrals have no inherent right to travel freely through Tir. They were allowed to for a long time, but times do change - and have. While I feel it is unnecessary, and a bit extreme, to shoot them on sight - being that there is a war on, and being that many neutrals are mercenaries and spies, there is a legitimate military reason for the Sentinels to close the traditional capitol city of the Clans to them.

No one has an inherent right to mine notum or hold land, either. These lands are taken, and held, entirely by force. It is not the ideal situation, no. War rarely is. It is unfortunate in many ways, many people are suffering and there has been a great deal of destruction and bloodshed.

But this is "de facto" the situation on Rubi-Ka now. There is a war going on. What some Neutrals may see as "teaching them Clanners a lesson," can only be viewed by many Clanners as a hostile act, and it will escalate the conflict.

It will justify attacking Neutrals for many Clanners who did not previously consider it justified. Up to this point I have reserved my judgement on this matter, and I have not made any decisions on what stance to advise my organization on taking. Currently we have a policy of non-aggression against Neutral facilities.

I am hoping that the actions of the Neutrals do not force us to reconsider this policy.

[_______________Viray]

"To the victor go the spoils."

Yes. There is a war on, however we were not part of it, or at least weren't part of it.

Aggressive Clan Orgs. made us a part of it. They have choosen to involve a third party in your war. No Notum mining is by no means a safe profession, however this is beyond a simply matter of our mine was knock over and now we are upset.

This is a matter of aggressive Clan Orgs. pressuring and opressing Neutral Citizens of Rubi-ka. This is about how now those very opressors are getting backing from seemingly every Clan Org. that use to preach peace and freedom.

If this is a war then you should by all means understand the occupation of Newland City by these Mercenaries.

I understand you Org. has a non-aggressive pact with regards to Neutral facilities, however not all of your brethen see that way and this has caused a huge rift in Clan/Neutral relation.

Do you side with Silverstone in his "defense" of Tir however?

If so you may to have to drop your feelings on neutrals.

[Silinary]

Originally posted by Strax


If as you say this is a Clan issue and one we will have to resolve on our own, then I fail to see how you can be outraged by the Tir situation. If it is not your problem, why be offended? I assert that it is indeed your problem almost as much as it is ours. We have seen our capitol taken over by a group of thugs, and you are getting killed as a result. How is this not your problem? However, if you won't help fix the situation, then I don't see how you can complain about it.

"Neutrals would exist reguardless of that rebellion or not." Patently false. Omni Tek would roll right over you if we were defeated. Your past, current and future existence depends on Clan being there as a bigger threat to Omni.

"I owe you nothing, and I ask of nothing. "
I am not asking for any compensation. I do not think that is appropriate. A little gratitude would be nice, even givin the current situation. At minimum though, I think that killing the people whose existence guarantees your independence is pretty short sighted.

I don't think that you are worthy of hate, Omni or otherwise. I don't hate you. I do consider you hostile. Your recent actions have shown this.

Perhaps you failed to read what I said so I'll put it in another way. We tried to help deal with the sentinal situation before. We attacked them outright on contract ,and on our own. We were retaliated on our towers by those clans that felt we were assulting Tir itself! Do you not see the problem in this? I would again try to help with the Sentinal issue in Tir if I could be promied that every clan org out there won't think we were assultign Tir itself and take it out on the tower we have left. With the way things have been ... and the actions of those you can not control, I will not help. Simply put. I will not give another invitation for assult on our towers. So we chose the defensive option. I realize some will still see this as an assult on clan authority ... but its mearly a defensive measure. There is no army marching out to the gates of Tir. There is no army marching out to assult any clanner seen. They will stay put, in the town of newland.

We don't have to go to Tir, and the clan's don't have to go to Newland. Period. At least the clans are gettign a good prior warning. Neutrals had none with the sentinals. One day they not there, the next they are with everyone wondering WTF?

I say it is no longer our problem because we have adapted. Some still risk the run, but many just avoid it. It is no longer our issue because we have done what we can do. Sure, I wouldnt' mind seeing a large clan force fighting silverstone and have neutrals in yalms sitting high up and drop down and aid in the fight once it ensues... but we havn't been offered this position either. I say it's a clan problem because as long as he's there, the clans will be blamed for his actions. This whole thing is partly due to that. Tho only part.

I give no gratitude to you, because you wern't there. I would thank those that participated in it, but not those that exist now. The current embodiment of the clans has gone astray. I don't see, and maybe it is my short sightedness, how I can owe my existance to the clans. If the clans wern't here, we would all be colonists. Doing whatever it is we do, but we wouldnt' be fighting each other. One must wonder if that would have been a more favorable outcome.

I do not complain about the current situation, I tell it how it is. take from that what you will but I am rather comfortable with the way things are. I can adapt and cope with the changing times, many neutrals can. The part that I have a problem with is when people put the blame on me, without taking responsibility for their own actions. I can agree with not taking the responsibility for someone else's action, but don't be suprised when their actions end up effecting you as well. Talk to them, those that pushed neutrals to this point. See what they have to say about it, because they have yet to post one word on the news as far as I can see. See what they need to say about it, and tell me I am not who I am.

I hope that clears this up. I am not anymore hostile then those clans that have showed us they path we now tread. If I physically attack you, it is only because you are at a neutral base during an attack from clans. It's happened before, it will happen again. I don't go looking for trouble ... even if I wanted to, enough seems to find its way to me. I'm normally a rather peacefull and passive person. Time changes people I suppose.

Some are beginning to understand. I am happy for that. Through understanding this will get resolved. Talk to us in the flesh... we don't waiver... this is not somthing I am making up.

[UwensBack]

((OOC: ARG! I had a rather long post here but I forgot to save it to notepad and my login to the site timed out. This is much shorter than the first one. The first one also had a lot more voice in it))

There is so much to reply to, I dont know if I can get to it all.

The clans are responsible for removing the Sentinels from Tir. The clans are also responsible for the neutrals feeling threated. Clan thugs ruthlessly assaulted neutral land repeatedly. I do not condone the thugs in Newland, but they did have a legitimate reason to be angry with the clans. It is not the job of the neutrals to remove the Sentinels, it is our job. It is our responsibility. We allowed them to take Tir, we allowed them to consolidate Tir, we allowed them to murder neutrals. We have made too many allowances for the Sentinels.

Viray, you say the clans have brought another side into the conflict. Neutrals cannot be a side in the conflict becuase they are neutral. Therefore, if you make war with all the clans, then you will be considered Omni. Your guards murder the same people as Omni guards do. Your main city is open to the same people Omni cities are open to. You are making war with the same people OmniTek does. You would no longer be neutral if you did that. Instead, make war only with the clans that take your towers. If you did that, I know that, guild leader permitting, I would help you take your towers back from the clans. Yes, we would be losing assets, but the assets should not have been ours in the first place. And I am certain that I would help defend your towers from clan attacks. On top of this, all clans who want to repair relations with the Neutrals must stop these rogue clans from assaulting neutral holdings. This means we must help the neutrals take back land from our own people. However, this is land that our people should not have taken in the first place. We also need to help them defend the towers from the rogue elements from our own faction. This is the best way, in my eyes, to show the neutrals that the majority of clanners are not thugs and pirates. The neutrals must reciprocate, of course, with the removal of the thugs in Newland. We are not the ones who have to do all the work in repairing our relations. We have to do most of it, as most of it is our fault, but for this to work, it must be a two way thing.

Also, Viray, yes, if Tir was attacked, we would stand beside the Sentinels we hate and defend it from the attackers. The only exception to this would be if the attackers were clanners trying to free the city. The fact of the matter is that, while we hate the Sentinels, they are, at the very least, opposed to OmniTek. They, with their infinite faults, are better than an Omni occupation of Tir. Of course, if, during or after the battle we turned on the Sentinels and shot them up and reclaimed the city for true clanners, most of us would be overjoyed. But the removal of the Sentinels from Tir must be a clanner action, not an Omni or Neutral one.

[Bionitrous]

Originally posted by Uwen
Viray, you say the clans have brought another side into the conflict. Neutrals cannot be a side in the conflict becuase they are neutral. Therefore, if you make war with all the clans, then you will be considered Omni

Perhaps considered as Omni. But most assuredly not. You would not have one enemy, but two. Two distinctively different enemies striving for distinctly different ends.

The solution to this issue is simple. It doesn't necessarily involve the removal of the Sentinels from Tir. It doesn't even necessarily involve pacification by the Clans who have a grudge with particular Neutral organizations.

It simply consists of allowing Neutrals to stand on their own merit. It consists of proferring the respect to individuals who have earned it regardless of their political beliefs. It consists of Clans who have issues with certain orgs settling their differences as honorable men and fighting honorably. It consists of the end of blind alliegance to a Symbol without considering one's actions first.

Fighting fire with fire. An eye for an eye. Noone I'm pledged to holds these tenets more dearly than the Golden Rule. But, the cornered rat fights back. Cervus lacessitus leo - The stag at bay becomes a lion.

I'd rather buy you a beer and put aside politics and war. My hand is slapped so that isn't possible. Let's hope for a change.

[UwensBack]

I would just like to say that I have a great respect for neutrals simply for their ability to remain neutral. The only neutrals for whom I have lost my repect for are the ones who have quite obviously sided with OmniTek against all clans. I can understand wanting to get your land back, but not lumping every clanner into the same fate when there are clanners like myself who have been fighting to keep the neutrals out of the conflict and for clanners to stop attacking them.

[___________Lady Kali]

Uwen, it does give me comfort that you now see things from the correct perspective. If more clans thought as you did the ice would break and reconciliation may begin. But I fear the wheels are turning much too late to resolve things before the mercenary contract will be physically presented to the neutrals for the endorsing.

Originally posted by Uwen

Therefore, if you make war with all the clans, then you will be considered Omni. Your guards murder the same people as Omni guards do. Your main city is open to the same people Omni cities are open to. You are making war with the same people OmniTek does. You would no longer be neutral if you did that.

Despite what some might believe self-defense is a moral right, not an alignment change. Defining neutral self-defense to a Clan threat as a choice of allegiance is pure folly. Neutrals aren’t starting a war, that process has already been performed by the numerous Clan organizations that attack neutral mines and the ones who support Silvertone & Co. Neutrals taking protective action of their city does not turn them into a large corporation. It does turn their goals to dominate notum export. It does not turn their purpose or their beliefs and values. For those who say “it is not all Clans who are responsible” I will elaborate my opinion in the paragraphs to follow.

Originally posted by Uwen

Instead, make war only with the clans that take your towers…

Everything you propose we do, we have already done yet the situation remains unchanged. In the specific case of my guild we did make war on the responsible parties, and instead of receiving this clan support that one would hope for, we got the majority of the clan community assisting the aggressors who took our land- both on the battlefield and in politics. I think you can see how some of us neutrals feel betrayed and let down by Clan as a whole. This might shed some light on the “but, but, but… It’s not ALL of clan that’s responsible!” issue and why some disagree.

Originally posted by Uwen

If you did that, I know that, guild leader permitting, I would help you take your towers back from the clans…

Any clan that would like to help neutrals reclaim their fallen bases and hold Clan to their virtue would have tremendous respect and admiration from the neutral community. I suggest these groups organize and make themselves known, take action as a group- here would be a good place to start. If virtuous clans are in the majority, SHOW IT!

Originally posted by Uwen

…On top of this, all clans who want to repair relations with the Neutrals must stop these rogue clans from assaulting neutral holdings. This means we must help the neutrals take back land from our own people. However, this is land that our people should not have taken in the first place… This is the best way, in my eyes, to show the neutrals that the majority of clanners are not thugs and pirates….

Yes, Uwen you are correct. If enough Clan leaders band together to make this a REALITY I know for a fact that no neutrals would sign the contract to allow Ian Warr to place his guards in the city.

But there is the issue of time that needs to be understood. The contract for the protection of Newland City will be presented to the neutral community very soon, and it is not an opportunity that will ever come again. For the neutrals to reject the finalizing of the contract it would leave our Capital open to attack by Silvertone and his minions, and there would be no way of stopping the guilty clan individuals who have begun this conflict from trespassing onto our homeland.

Originally posted by Uwen

…The neutrals must reciprocate, of course, with the removal of the thugs in Newland. We are not the ones who have to do all the work in repairing our relations. We have to do most of it, as most of it is our fault, but for this to work, it must be a two way thing.

I don’t think it will be possible for all this to be said and done before Ian Warr and his men arrive. But if I’m wrong and Clan DOES reconcile in time, neutrals won’t accept the contract to let Warr’s men into NLC in the first place. However if reconciliation takes more time then that- and I think it might- the NLC guards will most likely be asked to leave (as their service would no longer be required) once some positive steps towards peace is made, but I think that goes without saying.

((ooc its partially of up to FC *shrug*… Hopefully they’ll play along ))

[UwensBack]

I was mistaken in saying that neutrals that made war with the clans were Omni. You are absolutely right that it would be another side in the war. In another discussion I defended neutrals to an OmniTek employee who said that the neutrals were not a side. I argued that they were a side as they held their own sets of beliefs and have their own objectives. Here, I have spoken too quickly and I said something that I disagree with. The neutrals are indeed a side. If OmniTek took over Tir, it would be a far different, and worse, thing than if neutrals took over Tir. What I meant to say was that there are many clanners that, if war is declared upon them, they will consider the declaring parties Omni.

Now, I say "war declared upon them". What I mean by that is an open declaration of war. I know that the neutrals were not the aggressors, except for a few mercenary groups.

[Bionitrous]

Originally posted by Uwen
The neutrals are indeed a side.

Minor clarification. The Neutrals might be considered as an anti-side. We rarely band together as a whole unless our beliefs mesh under the circumstances. And it takes a lot to accomplish that.

Continued aggression against Neutrals as a whole regardless of the actions or beliefs of the individual organizations can be enough to get a sizeable portion to agree. Like the United States before WW I/WW II. Basically, it was a conglomeration of individual states each with their own agenda. The second world war solidified the states into a cohesive union that hasn't gone back to the former structure since.

[Ghiggles]

My Dear Friends,

I would like to take a moment to introduce myself. Friends call me "Bailey" and I would hope any of you I would have the pleasure of meeting, would do so as well.

It breaks my heart to see things as they are now. The Healing Hands a Non Notum Mining., Neutral Guild has always and will always hold its arms wide open to all friends Clan, Omni and Neutral.The HH are opposed to this unnamed neutral org or orgs hiring mercenaries to patrol NLC for our Clan friends.

While we are also aware that not all of the neutral community feels this way. We do.
Our President Electronix4 has restructured our long standing guild of Doctors and Enforcer (used soley for our protection) to accomodate the changing times. Hence I have applied and am now Diplomat for Clan relations.
I will be trying to contact Clan guild leaders in the future.

Healing Hands does not now or has no plans in the future to own a tower or mine for Notum. We do not,nor ever will discriminate. We offer our assistance to all that need it ,and as a guild have elected to keep our selves out of tower or mining wars.
We also try to , as much as possible to keep ourselves out of areas where we may be potential targets for bloodthirsty individuals regardless of their "side".

Please take this as a first step in assuring the Healing Hands relationship with ALL of Rubi-ka.

We have Neutral and Omni Diplomats as well and Im sure it is only a matter of time before a member of the Hands contacts you.


Peace to you all,

Bailey.

[Fixerben]

Bailey as Clan Relations officer for Healing Hands I would like to invite you to attend the RMC's next informational meeting. It will be on February 4th @ 7PM EST. Please send me a message ingame if you would like to attend. For more information on the RMC please click the Gridlink in my signature.

[Fixerben]

As for the rest of you, stay here and argue. I will be out doing things that affect things around me. I will be in Tir allowing my Neutral friends to come through the Whompas. Or I will be at someones base helping them to defend themselves. Either way, I will be doing good things to bring peace. While you sit here and squabble for arguments.