Neutrals declare war on Clans - for what reason?

[Fixerben]

It seems that all of you are still bagging everyone together. Vix, and I are not your typical Clanner. You will not see us attack a Neutral Tower unless attacked first.

I dont understand why its so hard for you to stop thinking so narrowly as "Clan/OMni/Neutral" and look at us as individual guilds.

I dont care who attacks who more, my point is that I will NOT attack a Neutral unless that Neutral attacks me first. Neither does Whisper's Edge (Vixentrox's Guild).

So unless you all can stop being so Narrow minded, and sticking Vix and I with all the other Clans that attack neutrals, you will never understand. We do not attack neutrals. I am the most Neutral friendly Clansmen you will ever find. And it bugs me that you still insist I am a Neutral killer.

After all that I have done. This is what it comes to.

[Rubel]

Originally posted by Jynne
Khamuk, don't be silly.

There was one high-profile attack on a neutral base by a clan org, and it mostly became high-profile because the neutrals lost, then started flooding the grid with complaints and accusations.

Plenty of Omni orgs attack Neutrals. You just don't hear about it, or ignore it, or consider it justified, because you're Omni.

The Clans aren't squeaky clean, no. But considering the proximity of many Neutral bases to our heartlands, their existence has been permitted for quite some time, wouldn't you say? If we really were so neutral-hostile as you claim, all the gray triangles on the map would be red.

I further note that there aren't any gray triangles in Omni controlled areas. All the ones that used to be there are blue now. Wonder how that happened...

OOC:

First, I'll start by saying that I do not condone the introduction of "clan-killing guards" in NLC. The post is only meant to question some of the things clan players spout as fact.

I'm amazed how you clanners can continue to say that omni attack neutrals as much as clans do. Is that your IC opinion only or OOC as well? I'm a neutral, and a member of Desert Winds. I've been to countless neutral tower defenses since the launch of Notum Wars, before our guild made the IC stand against towers.

With the exception of one omni character that spent the holiday season attacking our tower... except for that one person at least 80-90% of all attacks I witnessed against against neutral towers were made by clan. I've defended the towers of Free Trade Alliance, Elite Operations, Elite Academy, Independent Rubikans and Desert Winds... almost always against clan.

And that's the same you hear from other neutrals that spend their time defending towers as well, yet you fail to take any notice of it and continue saying omni are as bad. Why do you claim to know such things better than the neutrals that are actually there and can see with their own eyes who's attacking?

One member of my org even told me she'd never make a clan character, because of the way clanners treat neutrals... and her personality is much closer to that of a clanner than omni, both IC and OOC. She's even got more clan then omni friends. Still she refuse to even as much as make a clan alt, not because of the Sentinels in Tir, but because of the way many clan players treat neutrals. If that doesn't tell you something, nothing will.

Delmar "Rubel" Dinnen
Unit Leader, Desert Winds

PS. Oh and Fixerben... you seem to take affront to any negative posts made against clans, so I just thought I'd mention that this post is in no way directed at you, I know what you and others like you stand for.

[Jynne]

Originally posted by Tedder Family
Jynne: yes. Unity Of The Rose had that place for three days as far as I understand, with only a controller.

Ask the Pewee org, they are the ones telling us this, that they gave the land to you, and they now, as we type this, attack our land to give it to someone else.

Or rush to Holes In the wall now, close to the zoneborder to Stret West, by the Reets.

I'm not able to get in-game at this time.

However, I'm 100% certain that we never had a base for three days in Holes in the Wall. I would have noticed, even if nobody told me, and it just plain wasn't there.

Don't accept what an organization that is attacking you says, as the truth.

[Silinary]

Just wanted to clear this up.

It is also compelte nonsense that it wouldn't have happened if Clan orgs hadn't attacked Neutral bases. Player interaction didn't lead to either the Sentinels in Tir nor these new thug guards in NLC. This latest development came as a retaliation for the Tir Sentinels. I find in implausable that it wouldn't have happened if Clans were nice to Neutrals.

I believe player interaction did indeed influence all the above. If the CoA didn't pressure the CoT to do something, the CoT may very well have still been around. I know for a Fact these "new thug guards" are around because of player interaction. As I've mentioned in other threads, the money was real. The debates were real. The reasons were real. This wasn't some arbitrary decision by FC. Without the motivation to do it, it wouldn't have been done. Or do you feel that upon rejection FC would decide to do it any ways?

[Jynne]

I also monitor the All Towers channel. I do see what is going on with NW when I am on-planet.

I did not see excessive Clan attacks on Neutrals, either by low-level or high-level organizations, until this last week when the announcement was made that Neutrals were hostile to Clanners. This despite the fact that most Neutral tower bases are in the north, including some areas considered "homeland" by Clanners. If the Clans really were that "neutral hostile" then those bases would have been conquered weeks ago.

During my trips to Newland, the people I've seen killing guards, and indeed hanging out there in general, were Omni, not Clan. Newland City is where Omnis go to get missions to Broken Shores and form teams. The Clans by and large use Tir to form teams and pick missions. Now, plenty of Clanners are quite good shots, but I question how they're able to hit a guard in Newland City all the way from Tir.

As I said, I know of one "high profile" attack on Neutrals. It was Lion's Den vs. Elite Operations. After a running war broke out, other clans came to Lion's Den's defense, and a war of words broke out in the grid. It wasn't very different from the attack Omni-Pol led against the Independent Rubi-Kans base in SFH, except that apparently the IR-K had conquered that base by force, while EO claims to have been the first builders at the place Lion's Den attacked.

For those who actually care, I note that Lion's Den no longer exists as a functioning organization. I also note that there isn't any reliable way for anyone to know who built what first where. It is, and was always, EO's word vs. Lion's Den's.

And I further note that you're continuing to judge the majority of the Clans, who'd be perfectly happy to leave you alone, by the actions of a few organizations over whom we have no control. Now by targeting the Clans with these mercenaries, you've fulfilled your own prophecy of Clan aggression towards Neutrals.

Of course Clanners are going to attack you now that you've declared yourselves their enemy.

[Beamboom]

Please dont misunderstand me. There are a LOT of friendly clans. Actually, I have by far more clan friends than i got omnis, mostly friendships created before the NW came around. I consider myself to be a friend to both omnis and clans.

There are even clan organizations helping us against OTHER clans. By all mean,s I do NOT say that all clans are unfriendly.

But statistically, the number of attacks on neutral bases, most have been by clans. That is my clear impression. From what I ear from other neutral orgs, if they are attacked, its most often (not always) by clans.

Anyone got some statistics/log to back this up?

[Fixerben]

Originally posted by Rubel
PS. Oh and Fixerben... you seem to take affront to any negative posts made against clans, so I just thought I'd mention that this post is in no way directed at you, I know what you and others like you stand for.

Thank you Rubel, but its the Generalization that I take affront to. When people stick all Clans together, and then claim to be Independant neturals and not to be considered part of a whoel faction. I wish that people could understand and do the same for me. But some just wish to persecute me because I am clan.

I consider everyone else seperate from their Faction, as individuals, which is more important than their faction alignment. I just wish others could end the prejudice and do the same for me.

[Rubel]

Originally posted by Jynne
And I further note that you're continuing to judge the majority of the Clans, who'd be perfectly happy to leave you alone, by the actions of a few organizations over whom we have no control. Now by targeting the Clans with these mercenaries, you've fulfilled your own prophecy of Clan aggression towards Neutrals.

Of course Clanners are going to attack you now that you've declared yourselves their enemy.

So you're saying that neutrals shouldn't judge the majority of the clans based on the actions of a few, yet say that it's perfectly natural that clans should generalize all neutrals as being responsible for hiring these mercenaries, rather than the few that did? Come on, how can you defend the exact same behaviour from clans that you condemn from neutrals?

[UwensBack]

Originally posted by Fixerben
It seems that all of you are still bagging everyone together. Vix, and I are not your typical Clanner. You will not see us attack a Neutral Tower unless attacked first.

I dont understand why its so hard for you to stop thinking so narrowly as "Clan/OMni/Neutral" and look at us as individual guilds.

I dont care who attacks who more, my point is that I will NOT attack a Neutral unless that Neutral attacks me first. Neither does Whisper's Edge (Vixentrox's Guild).

So unless you all can stop being so Narrow minded, and sticking Vix and I with all the other Clans that attack neutrals, you will never understand. We do not attack neutrals. I am the most Neutral friendly Clansmen you will ever find. And it bugs me that you still insist I am a Neutral killer.

After all that I have done. This is what it comes to.

OOC:
I know that not all neutrals do this to us, but many of them do. And just like Fixerben has stated, it gets very annoying. Its like they are trying to lose clan support. Fixerben kills guards so neutrals can come in the city (I can't becuase I'm only level 87) and we both argue for neutrals and against aggressive clanners on the forums and we still get lumped together with the aggressive clanners. And we're not alone. Vix and Jynne have both argued for neutral rights. Nelida has been arguing for neutrals rights forever and she still gets lumped in. It makes it seem futile. Its like shooting your own guards. Well, with the thugs "guarding" two cities now, maybe thats not such a great analogy.

[Vixentrox]

Originally posted by Tedder Family
Please dont misunderstand me. There are a LOT of friendly clans. Actually, I have by far more clan friends than i got omnis, mostly friendships created before the NW came around. I consider myself to be a friend to both omnis and clans.

There are even clan organizations helping us against OTHER clans. By all mean,s I do NOT say that all clans are unfriendly.

But statistically, the number of attacks on neutral bases, most have been by clans. That is my clear impression. From what I ear from other neutral orgs, if they are attacked, its most often (not always) by clans.

Anyone got some statistics/log to back this up?

I don't disagree that the majority of the the attacks on Neutral mines HAVE indeed been by Clan orginizations. Having said that, it seems like it's usually the same few orgs over and over again that do it. Just like Tower Hunters always seem to make attacks on Clan mines. Also, due to the PROXIMITY of Clan and Neutral mines, it's quit possible that some of these "attacks" are just accidents. Some one bumbles around a tower field, get's shot, then returns fire.

[Rubel]

Originally posted by Vixentrox


I don't disagree that the majority of the the attacks on Neutral mines HAVE indeed been by Clan orginizations. Having said that, it seems like it's usually the same few orgs over and over again that do it. Just like Tower Hunters always seem to make attacks on Clan mines. Also, due to the PROXIMITY of Clan and Neutral mines, it's quit possible that some of these "attacks" are just accidents. Some one bumbles around a tower field, get's shot, then returns fire.

OOC:

The proximity of clan and neutral mines is really what it all boils down to... non-RP clans who don't really care about the Clan-Omni conflict will attack neutral bases rather than omni because their placement makes them easier to get to for an attack and easier to defend once you take it. It's just the most practical thing to do for non-RP orgs.

It's also worth mentioning that if the main neutral cities had been to the south instead of the north, we would undoubtedly have the exact opposite situation, with omni orgs being the greatest aggressors against neutral bases.

[Jynne]

Originally posted by Rubel
So you're saying that neutrals shouldn't judge the majority of the clans based on the actions of a few, yet say that it's perfectly natural that clans should generalize all neutrals as being responsible for hiring these mercenaries, rather than the few that did? Come on, how can you defend the exact same behaviour from clans that you condemn from neutrals?

What I'm saying is that the Clans, overall, will react to Neutral aggression with... more aggression. I'm not defending it, I'm predicting it.

If the Neutral goal is to reduce or eliminate Clan aggression, starting a war with the Clans in general is counter-productive. The actions being taken are provocative and increase tensions, and provide rationales for previously non-hostile Clanners (and as Vix noted, and I noted, most Clanners aren't anti-neutral - a few orgs don't care) to attack Neutral tower bases.

Neutral hostility and cooperation with Omni-Tek to attack Clanners also provides justification for increased aggressiveness to the Clanners who've been attacking Neutral bases already, as well as vindicating their past aggressions as well.

In short, what I am saying is that if you think these measures will reduce Clan attacks on Neutral bases, you are mistaken. It will result in an increase. While most Clanners would accept and understand a targeted retaliation against the specific organizations that have been attacking Neutrals, a blanket retaliation is going to radicalize them.

I never said this was a good thing. I just said that's how it's going to work. The Clans are militarily more powerful than the Neutrals, and many Neutral bases are in very easy striking reach of the majority of Clanners. The fact that those bases remain standing, and have remained standing for some time, is telling.

The Clans could have conquered all existing Neutral lands long ago. This isn't a boast, or an insult, it's just a fact. But, we didn't. The main reason for this is, in the end, that a majority of us didn't consider it justified. Neutrals aren't (weren't?) our enemies.

But now - and again, this is descriptive and predictive, not a statement of my intent or the intent of my organization - as an old Earth proverb states, "Mess with the bull, get the horns."

[Vixentrox]

Sad to say but Jynne is correct. The more the Clans get pushed the more likely those gray triangles will become red. Clan bases surrounding neutral ones will ensure the destruction of a neutral mine. Get ready becuase I am pretty sure that is EXACTLY what is going to happen when Clan start getting gunned down in Newland.

[BigGreen]

Good point Rubel. I don't think you'll find many Role Playing guilds that have participated in taking down Neutral bases.

[_______________Viray]

With the deregulation of Notum mining I only recall few Neutral Orgs. having towers (Wolf Brigade, Free Trade Alliance, Elite Operations, Elite Academy, Independent Rubikans and Desert Winds). If you would like I can show you screenshots of the day we through our tower up in The Longest Road, in a clear empty spot. There is a news feed of it in our comm center you should be able to see as well: http://www.eliteoperations.com .

From solo Clanners to a CoA member and possibly lower level CoA alts attacking fellow Neutral Org. Wolf Bridgade right outside of Borealis, and until probably last week was occupied by a Clan Org. according to the land control map.

The probelm is this isn't a isolated inccident between one Clan Org. and one Neutral Org. everyone wants to believe that and even says so but its not. The truth is a lot of pillaging and attacking is going on, and just cause your Clan Org. didn't do doesn't mean it wasn't Clanners knocking over towers.

So the question I beg to be asked is what were we to do about a faction that contained hostile people in it, that were obviously all for attacking our faction?

[Rubel]

Originally posted by Jynne
What I'm saying is that the Clans, overall, will react to Neutral aggression with... more aggression. I'm not defending it, I'm predicting it.

If the Neutral goal is to reduce or eliminate Clan aggression, starting a war with the Clans in general is counter-productive. The actions being taken are provocative and increase tensions, and provide rationales for previously non-hostile Clanners (and as Vix noted, and I noted, most Clanners aren't anti-neutral - a few orgs don't care) to attack Neutral tower bases.

Neutral hostility and cooperation with Omni-Tek to attack Clanners also provides justification for increased aggressiveness to the Clanners who've been attacking Neutral bases already, as well as vindicating their past aggressions as well.

In short, what I am saying is that if you think these measures will reduce Clan attacks on Neutral bases, you are mistaken. It will result in an increase. While most Clanners would accept and understand a targeted retaliation against the specific organizations that have been attacking Neutrals, a blanket retaliation is going to radicalize them.

I never said this was a good thing. I just said that's how it's going to work. The Clans are militarily more powerful than the Neutrals, and many Neutral bases are in very easy striking reach of the majority of Clanners. The fact that those bases remain standing, and have remained standing for some time, is telling.

The Clans could have conquered all existing Neutral lands long ago. This isn't a boast, or an insult, it's just a fact. But, we didn't. The main reason for this is, in the end, that a majority of us didn't consider it justified. Neutrals aren't (weren't?) our enemies.

But now - and again, this is descriptive and predictive, not a statement of my intent or the intent of my organization - as an old Earth proverb states, "Mess with the bull, get the horns."

Thanks for clarifying that, I can see your point more clearly now and it's a good one. I think you'll find that neutrals are fully aware that this will only increase the current tension between clans and neutrals, and I truly believe most regret it ever happening.

I'd like to point out though, that I don't think the neutral towers that stand today do so because the clans decided to let them. It's more a matter of clan attackers underestimating the strength of the neutrals in defense of their towers. If they continue to make that mistake remains to be seen.

[UwensBack]

Originally posted by Viray

So the question I beg to be asked is what were we to do about a faction that contained hostile people in it, that were obviously all for attacking our faction?

Well, unless you want to turn a minority (I know there have been many attacks against neutrals, but that doesnt mean a majority of clanners did them. It means a minority of clanners did all the attacks) into a majority, then you shouldn't declare war on the entire faction.

[Dudicas]

{{OOC}}

I predict that by the end of the weekend following the patch that puts the clan killers in Newland there will be no neutral towers left on Rubi-ka.

Even as much as we would like to help protect the neutrals, there will be nothing we can do to stop the massacre that will occur that weekend.

Not to sound conceited, but if you want to keep your land control areas that you have been allowed to hold up until now, I think you should beg and plead with whoever made the contract with the mercenaries to break that contract.

The attacks that were made on neutral up until now have been either bored powergamers, people that just don't care about the politics of the game, or true mistakes that escalated into wars. The neutrals supporting this are asking for a focused attack on them by the Clans.

[Jynne]

Originally posted by Rubel


Thanks for clarifying that, I can see your point more clearly now and it's a good one. I think you'll find that neutrals are fully aware that this will only increase the current tension between clans and neutrals, and I truly believe most regret it ever happening.

I'd like to point out though, that I don't think the neutral towers that stand today do so because the clans decided to let them. It's more a matter of clan attackers underestimating the strength of the neutrals in defense of their towers. If they continue to make that mistake remains to be seen.

Honestly, I believe it's because even within organizations that do attack Neutrals, not everyone supports it. It's relatively easy to raise a force to attack an Omni-Tek facility by openly asking for help.

I've never, ever seen anyone openly trying to recruit Clanners to attack Neutrals. And the main reason for that, I will continue to believe, is because most Clanners won't support it, and even the attackers know that.

[_______________Viray]

I believe the real probelm Uwen is that when we made efforts to retake what we lost a further negative feedback with the Clans occured.

Meaning everytime we went to attack our enemies I was usually dealing with another Clan Org. that wanted to know if we were against all Clanners... I have had that conversation several times after a defense of our own towers, or another Neutral Orgs. tower.

So if Neutrals were already gaining a reputation for Omni-Tek Sympathizers and Clan Haters for just defending our own towers why not at least defend our own city?

You see this as a personal aggression against yourself or the Clans on a whole... when really it is only against those that have or would opress us Neutrals. Unfortunately we do not all wear name tags that the Mercenaries can check off Good Clanner or Bad Clanner by...