Maybe a profession and even maybe a level requirement to even pick the item up?
Would cause some cookie cutterness, but I doubt it with the drop rate on certain items
Also an additional loot message for vicinity or even /shout would be a welcome change.
What's worse: someone that ninja loots the kill or someone you can't outdamage for loot rights selling that container (and 30 more just like it) at 200 million credits a piece?Originally posted by eaze
Ok, as everyone on FunCom knows, the ninjalooting from the top end mobs has been a problem since tara was introduced, and is even worse now than ever. This need to be adressed.
Now, there's ONE thing I want to know.
If you -DO- feel that Monster Sunglasses is important enough to use this technique on (container not nodrop, but once opened, the item is nodrop).
This would allow a raid leader to empty out (i.e.) Tarasque right away, and then share the loot later, including the nodrop items.
With these christmas presents you actually proved that you did have the technology and function of this. Why Isn't it being used somewhere every player would like it (except the likes of Divinecross).
How hard would it be to make something called i.e. "Container: Breatlaste of Azure Reveries" and the entire problem would be fixed.
Could you please just tell us, why? Do you wish ninjalooting to be a sport/hobby/profession in this game? If you do, that's (sort of) fair enough. But let us know.
Anyone somehow agreeing, please bump to force Funcom's attention.
Ninjas cause the more immediate pain. Something I think is blinding you to the other side of your solution: hoarding. Fixers detest the price they have to pay for GA disks/nanocrystals. NT's ain't happy about the price they pay for NS. Which you're talking about doing is creating a way for a group of individuals to camp the mob 24/7, outdamage everyone for loot rights and sell the items at the same stupid prices ingame.
If you think it won't happen then you weren't paying attention to the subway dungeon. People were staying inside the dungeon past level 24 solely to kill the boss mobs for the rings and transferring them out of the dungeon to sell. The real newbies in the dungeon weren't capable of outdamaging them so they never got loot.
History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris
The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown
Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio
Farming items and selling them off can be combated in ways other than simply making things NoDrop.Originally posted by Kaiousama
Like someone already said, so the items can't be traded/sold, FCs way of trying to keep ppl who don't need the item from farming them and selling them off?
For one, if mobs dropping uber loot didn't spawn in the same ****ing place 24/7, you'd actually have to FIND the mob each time before you kill it. If farming a mob required travel to Mort, then to EFP, then to SEB, then to Avalon, and then to Tir, and then to SFH, then to Omni-1 Backyard 9, would you still want to farm it?
Secondly, if item drops off of mobs were random and unpredictable instead of the "Kill this for that piece of loot" system we have in place, farming one particular item would be frustrating enough a process to prevent it re-occurance.
Thirdly, if ubermobs caused the gas in the area to drop to 25%, farming becomes dangerous.
And fourth, if ubermobs spawned fast enough so that they'd always be alive, everyone's chance at the mob would be both improved and random based on where they were at any given point in time.
NoDrop is the way of the lazy, uninnovative coder because the concept of NoDrop has been around way longer than AO has...
.: Naraya :.
It would seem half the replies on this thread are selective readers. I could have sworn that Eaze proposed 10 min time limits before nodrop items 'pop' out of the container. His reasoning seems sound enough.
But then, if you were to take that part of Eaze's perposal in conjunction with his first post, you wouldn't be able to show off your righteous indignity. My bad.
Bump for the idea.
And 5th, if Funcom took most of those suggestions, most people would complain about time sinks. The rest would complain about being forced to PvPOriginally posted by Naraya
Farming items and selling them off can be combated in ways other than simply making things NoDrop.
For one, if mobs dropping uber loot didn't spawn in the same ****ing place 24/7, you'd actually have to FIND the mob each time before you kill it. If farming a mob required travel to Mort, then to EFP, then to SEB, then to Avalon, and then to Tir, and then to SFH, then to Omni-1 Backyard 9, would you still want to farm it?
Secondly, if item drops off of mobs were random and unpredictable instead of the "Kill this for that piece of loot" system we have in place, farming one particular item would be frustrating enough a process to prevent it re-occurance.
Thirdly, if ubermobs caused the gas in the area to drop to 25%, farming becomes dangerous.
And fourth, if ubermobs spawned fast enough so that they'd always be alive, everyone's chance at the mob would be both improved and random based on where they were at any given point in time.
NoDrop is the way of the lazy, uninnovative coder because the concept of NoDrop has been around way longer than AO has...
Okay wisecracks aside (since I've got to stay witty for someone else to flame me), I don't believe most of those are a viable option either.
The gas zones are out as the Notum Wars has shown us. Despite having a full 60 seconds to clear a tower area where a person might get a random mission in or through, people complained about being forced to PvP. With something they actually want in a PvP zone, they'd really start having kittens.
Random locations for the mob spawns would work on some mobs. But where else would Tarasque be approrpiate except for Camelot? In fact most uber mobs (I'm starting to detest that word) have to be isolated. Lest they do their jobs and eat somebody. Lord knows we couldn't have an aggro mob like Tara wandering around even Mort.
I've seen and made suggestions, myself, for the uber loot to be more randomized among who it drops off of. But I see the hole in my own suggestions: What mob but Tarasque should have living dragon flesh? Who else should have the professor's vest? Some items have to be with specific mobs.
Bumping up the spawn rate would have the secondary effect of the market getting flooded with the items. And the tertiary effect of people using the mobs strictly for levelling. The levelling thing is minor as Funcom could simply make the mobs worth 0 xp, with the loot being the reward. But if everyone had a Gaily Painted Hood or Virral Eggs, the game would quickly become imbalanced as too many people would become too powerful for the mobs. And making the mobs more difficult isn't viable because Funcom has to keep in mind the difficulty for the people that haven't hit those mobs yet. Razor's edge to walk there.
Don't get me wrong. No drop items do suck imo. And any suggestions to remove as many no drop items as possible can only help people think of a better way. But the situation is only deceptively simple, mostly because our viewpoints as players never take in account the rest of the game.
History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris
The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown
Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio
Some of us did read that solution and its not a solution to ninja looting... it doesn't solve the actual problem, just tries to work around it and would probably create more loopholes than already exist. Here are some ways to get around this (or at least loopholes that would have to be stopped up somehow before it would work):Originally posted by Kzat
It would seem half the replies on this thread are selective readers. I could have sworn that Eaze proposed 10 min time limits before nodrop items 'pop' out of the container. His reasoning seems sound enough.
But then, if you were to take that part of Eaze's perposal in conjunction with his first post, you wouldn't be able to show off your righteous indignity. My bad.
Bump for the idea.
1. Container time stamp: does it run while the character is logged off?
2. What happens if the looter allows it to decay unless someone meets his/her price (if you don't think people are this greedy, just go hang out at the mechdog fields)?
3. Characters not in the playfield (or involved in the kill) at all can get the loot. (This allows someone to be a part of killing the mob with their mains, win the roll, loot the object, someone logs an alt and they transfer it to junior). Lowering the time 'might' fix this... but at the risk of the object decaying before it gets transferred legitimately.
4. The possibility of a ninja loot occurring still exists because there is no guarantee that the person who has looting rights can get loot before its ninja'd (whether for lag reasons, no 'official looter' because of LD's and/or team breakups, or various other possibilities).
5. Concept/RP reasons. Why in the world does the Tarasque have a sealed container with a piece of her flesh in it?
Just a few off the top of my head... I'm sure there are more I haven't thought of. There are several other options proposed in this thread that deal with the actual looting mechanism that are much more viable than this container doohickey.
editted to add: hmm... flesh isn't nodrop, is it? bad example... but the point is still valid.
Last edited by Jaesic; Jan 18th, 2003 at 08:15:30.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jaesic
[B]1. Container time stamp: does it run while the character is logged off?
[Why ask? Since this doesn't actually exist in the game at the moment, I would think it would be somewhat intelligent to just state that it does/will. Why propose something that won't work or be easily exploited.]
2. What happens if the looter allows it to decay unless someone meets his/her price (if you don't think people are this greedy, just go hang out at the mechdog fields)?
[Cry. The world isn't perfect. I fail to see what your point has to do with ninja looting. And unless I'm completely out of the loop, you can do that as it is anyways.]
3. Characters not in the playfield (or involved in the kill) at all can get the loot. (This allows someone to be a part of killing the mob with their mains, win the roll, loot the object, someone logs an alt and they transfer it to junior). Lowering the time 'might' fix this... but at the risk of the object decaying before it gets transferred legitimately.
[Guess what. People already do this. A good percentage of Tara loot has been given to alts of people involved in kills. Shockers of shocks. Again, nothing to do with ninja looting. I'm afraid I'm not up to date on current Tara rules or any raid rules for that matter, but winning a roll meant you won it. You could log whatever damn character you pleased to loot it.]
4. The possibility of a ninja loot occurring still exists because there is no guarantee that the person who has looting rights can get loot before its ninja'd (whether for lag reasons, no 'official looter' because of LD's and/or team breakups, or various other possibilities).
[Oh shucks. No guarantee. Perhaps we should just roll a one sided dice. Rolls a 1, you win the game. Rolls a...well you get the picture. Would sure cut down on HD space. And we wouldn't have to ***** about the lag anymore. And what does this have to do with ninja looting? That's like crying because you died to lag. **** happens. However, the current setup forces you to give loot window indirectly to another player. That leaves a window of oppurtunity for a ninja looter. Nothing to do with lag. Or whatever else you wish to blame ninja looting on.]
5. Concept/RP reasons. Why in the world does the Tarasque have a sealed container with a piece of her flesh in it?
[Using the RP argument is one of the oldest and most rediculous ones in the book. You may as well ask why we are a set profession that can only access certain nano programs. And why we all can use the same ones regardless of side. How do we lug around 18 assault rifles, 19 sets of clothes and 11 backpacks at one time as well? For some reason I can't imagine if AO was a real world that we would all be running around as an 'enforcer' 'agent' etc etc. *shrug* It may come as a shock to some people, but for all the rp that you may want to do, it IS a game. Not real life. And I'm sure if one is absolutely stuck on RPing every aspect of a game, then one has the imagination to figure out the answer to your question.]
Just a few off the top of my head... I'm sure there are more I haven't thought of. There are several other options proposed in this thread that deal with the actual looting mechanism that are much more viable than this container doohickey.
[The only other one I saw was transferring the loot window directly. But did you forget that what Eaze proposed is a game mechanic that we've seen exists ALREADY. We know it CAN BE DONE. While there are surely better and more streamlined ways of doing this, I'll risk going out on a limb and saying the mechanics are not created as of this date.]
Then maybe you should reread the thread and take a look at the other options presented. After all, the comment you started your post with was "It would seem half the replies on this thread are selective readers" ... next time you begin with a flame, you might want to make sure you don't walk yourself into being a hypocrite about it.Originally posted by Kzat
The only other one I saw was transferring the loot window directly. But did you forget that what Eaze proposed is a game mechanic that we've seen exists ALREADY. We know it CAN BE DONE. While there are surely better and more streamlined ways of doing this, I'll risk going out on a limb and saying the mechanics are not created as of this date.]
As to Eaze's idea already existing... the mechanics for spawning a container may already be in game, but time stamping, and removing it from the bank, inventory, or wherever when that decays (or the next time they log on if it decays while they're offline) is not. This might not be difficult code... but its no more difficult that the other "better and more streamlined ways" that were also proposed (either in this thread or others dealing with this topic).
And... as I have said before... Eaze's idea doesn't prevent ninja looting anyway... all it does is allow the designated looter to grab it for safekeeping until it is passed along. It does not prevent someone from ninja'ing it before that happens. So why mess around with work arounds at all?
NoDrop items causes, determination and cooperation which is good in a team/side based game.Originally posted by Naraya
And what is the reason for making stuff NoDrop? Do you know this reason Master Mbutu?
It also makes these items much wanted by most players since they are often special, and if they wasn't NoDrop the items would loose their special/unique feature.
I also see the negative sides with this items and I agree that there might be wise to do something with the negative problems it's causing.
Did you think FunCom made NoDrops just to annoy everybody?
Well hate to bring up Everquest but what they did when i was in there was make it so everyone around saw what was being looted and if someone ninja looted they got banned or the gm took the item away from ninja looter FC shows they have the tool to reimburse people too.
why not just have a loot option like alpha loot, that gives the looting rights exclusively, to the team that did the most damage to the mob.
no need for "christmas" item containers.
no need to worry about ninja looting.
Problem solved.
maybe that would solve the problem... but its a death sentence for many people who participate in these large raids (like at tarasque). The damage teams are not made up of a varied group of people. They are plainly the highest damage output characters available for the raid. To only allow those people to get loot defeats the purpose of needing many many more people guarding that team while they work on killing tara.Originally posted by MrBunny
why not just have a loot option like alpha loot, that gives the looting rights exclusively, to the team that did the most damage to the mob.
no need for "christmas" item containers.
no need to worry about ninja looting.
Problem solved.
some professions only get assigned to defense teams... just a fact of life. your suggestion says that they should never get loot. and, in some cases, populating your damage team(s) with one or more people who are not the highest damage output runs the risk of allowing a dedicated damage team from outdoing you. not a solution that would make most people happy at all.
I think the 'raffling' the loot like goes on in Tarasque borders on exploit anyway.
I'm to the point where I think every item in the game should be NoDrop+Unique. It's really sad to think I've been swayed to think this.
I'm tired of competent players killing stuff like The One or Tarasque and then handing out loot to people who have no legitimate claim to it.
I'm tired of people 'Farming'. You see the same people at unique spawns over and over and over and over and over. And then you see them or their guild's forum presence here on the Trade forums.
I'm sick of seeing people taking 'orders' for NCU rings out of the Subway.
You should do a dungeon, get your crap and stay the hell out. Get a team, go kill The One and then move on. No loot tranfer, no vacuum sealed packages. No Ninja looting ever again. No 500 billion credit items for auction. Every single thing in the game Unique/NoDrop. It's the people who ruin AO. It's the rules who let the people ruin it.
Maybe someday we can get back to actually 'playing' this game, huh?
It wouldn't totally surprise me.....lol.Originally posted by Master Mbutu
Did you think FunCom made NoDrops just to annoy everybody?
.: Naraya :.
Too bad the problem can't be solved that simply. In a world where everything had to be solo'd and everyone had the same potential skills... it might work.Originally posted by Bionitrous
I'm tired of competent players killing stuff like The One or Tarasque and then handing out loot to people who have no legitimate claim to it.
I'm to the point where I think every item in the game should be NoDrop+Unique. It's really sad to think I've been swayed to think this.
Ya know I thought of a really cool idea on the nodrop issue:
Make the item start out as 2 pieces.
For example:
Gaily Painted Hood would be the one part that drops off tara, not so uber, say without that -15%/300nano. Then you can tradeskill it, like the soldier hellspinners. You get another part and combine for an effect of the uber nodrop item.
The biggest problem I have with nodrops is...how da hell did the mob drop it if it is a nodrop item?
Nodrops create stress, ninja looting makes you feel like all the time you spend trying to get that nodrop is just a waste.
Also why is it the best items are nodrop? I think most people will agree, who cares if it cost 500mil on forums, at least someone can buy it.
Anyways, nodrop does need to be addressed.
No really, how did the mob drop that nodrop item?
Old Isgrimnur Timer - Ranger
Glen Sago Schmeisser - General
Marky Kenidy Mark - Master Assassin Retired@200
Bling Isgrimnurr Bling - Chairman and CEO
"Have you ever wondered, when you check loot and see NODROP, if it is not supposed to be dropped, how come the mob dropped it? And if the mob can drop it, why can't I?"
Why don't you make all uber loot SPECIAL you can't have more than one special item in inventory!!even bank should be added in here as it is today you can have 1 special in inventory and 1 in bank! But you can have it equipped on you and that doesn't count as in inventory - problem solved on the no trade of the nodrop items. no farming...
Ninja looting - just shout it out in the vicinity what was looted and who did it, and the idea of raid party with multiple teams in is great when you do guild events or otherstuff. But that can also be used as farming items.
To give loot rights to another person is the best thing that can be done. ex you open loot window - you see an item that X want and one item that Y want. you transfer loot window to X and then X transfer it to Y who closes the window and after that it is open for anyone to loot.
What they need to do is make it so one person can only EVER loot more than one instance of this special loot into their inventory. EVER. Keep it, sell it, delete it, whatever. Point being, you will NEVER again be allowed to take that item off a monster corpse.
Anybody who has ever looted more than one Crat Suit form should have their character permanently disfigured for pharming.
For things like Khaeler Sleeves, set the counter to 2. If you got yer two, you are DONE.
Something needs to be done. Not about the NoDrop. But about the people pharming this stuff so that there are not adventures out in the wilds, but rather horse crap killfest competitions for guild handouts or even worse, forum auctions.
As much as it is unnerving and frustrating, the method you find Grid Armor 4 is far fairer that the method you get a Jones Vest, Shades, Nball, Corona armor, or any of a multitude of items.
character data would have to be significantly larger (this becomes a problem in both loaded character and file storage... or load time if the information is kept in storage until you try to loot this type object) if you need to keep track of every item with a flag like this. even larger if it needs a counter for things like the sleeves. i agree something needs done... but this is why this option would be problematic.Originally posted by Bionitrous
What they need to do is make it so one person can only EVER loot more than one instance of this special loot into their inventory. EVER. Keep it, sell it, delete it, whatever. Point being, you will NEVER again be allowed to take that item off a monster corpse.
Anybody who has ever looted more than one Crat Suit form should have their character permanently disfigured for pharming.
For things like Khaeler Sleeves, set the counter to 2. If you got yer two, you are DONE.
Something needs to be done. Not about the NoDrop. But about the people pharming this stuff so that there are not adventures out in the wilds, but rather horse crap killfest competitions for guild handouts or even worse, forum auctions.
As much as it is unnerving and frustrating, the method you find Grid Armor 4 is far fairer that the method you get a Jones Vest, Shades, Nball, Corona armor, or any of a multitude of items.
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