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Thread: Training mobs

  1. #1

    Training mobs

    Cz

    Sorry to hear your opinion about training mobs being an exploit.

    You are wrong.

    It is using game mechanics to achive the purpose

    It is using what happens in RL

    It is risky to all parties involved

    It is the essence of charming mobs.

    While we are playing the game in ways you did not envision, that does not constitute an exploit.

    its all part of the game to find an uber mob in the middle of a lowbie fight.

    Sorry that you have been lead astray by special interest groups, whiners, and developers who think that their view of the game is more precious than the way we are playing it.

    And yes, I have been killed as an innocent a number of times this way, and it suxxor, but sometimes bad things happen to good people, and we cant solve all of life's problems by claiming them as exploits.

    Grow up

    Ani.
    PLEASE, give use a simple YES or no answer as to whether or not the CoH chests can be opened

  2. #2

    Re: Training mobs

    Originally posted by Animosity


    It is using what happens in RL

    Err... what part of the world do you live in where it is normal to get a dangerous animal mad at you, and then guide it over to someone else so that this animal will attack someone you don't like?
    Reverend Revelator Ramagano, Proud Something of Alpha Omega

    Alpha Omega: Fighting For Your Future, Today

    No, I'm not back.

    How embarrassing, after all these years it turns out I CAN'T spell **ncom with an F and a U, talk about egg on my face eh?

  3. #3

    Re: Re: Training mobs

    Originally posted by Revelator


    Err... what part of the world do you live in where it is normal to get a dangerous animal mad at you, and then guide it over to someone else so that this animal will attack someone you don't like?
    LOL
    Azzazzimon
    ICQ: 419860

    Clan Apocalypse - The guild for models

    Account closed.

  4. #4
    "Down boy!!!!"


    "Hey Mister, come back and take your damn Tiger away..."

    hehe sounds a bit like the old Counterstrike scenario when they made it impossible for a terrorist with a big gun make a hostage go anywhere or do anything anymore
    Remember "Jakeaway" Brigges
    Always "Spoton" Target
    Amsterdam "Firebrigade" Service

    Returned from the grave and back in business.....

  5. #5
    lol
    // wildwal - the sexiest adv evar - now with nr!
    // legion

  6. #6
    Grow up
    Or grow an alt. Its a griefers tactic. Play by the rules. Even those other play by...

  7. #7

    Re: Re: Training mobs

    Originally posted by Revelator


    Err... what part of the world do you live in where it is normal to get a dangerous animal mad at you, and then guide it over to someone else so that this animal will attack someone you don't like?
    This man has never been to a rodeo. Not that a rodeo is RL, unless you ask the bulls, or the clowns.
    PLEASE, give use a simple YES or no answer as to whether or not the CoH chests can be opened

  8. #8
    Originally posted by Snublefot


    Or grow an alt. Its a griefers tactic. Play by the rules. Even those other play by...
    Growth:

    typical n00b learns rules
    n00b loves rules
    n00b becomes a player
    player learns the tricks of the rules (ie things like temp implants)
    player starts to figure out more of the finer mechanics of the game
    player starts twinks
    player becomes veteran
    vet has uber twinks
    vet gets tired of hearing people whine about "exploits"
    vet leaves.


    Problem: This action is within the game mechanics, even though it goes against the niavety of the n00bs. to yell at vets is to diminish the time they will play the game.

    It would be better to solve this problem quietly in the background without telling the playing public, such as make the hate lists a little more solid when mobs attack, exempting disproportionatly low characters from the effects of area nukes, making the spoiled brat not want to leave her corner and so on.

    Another Problem: my lvl 24 adv had a little issue with the first boss eusomethingoranother in the subway. So I ran. so the eusomethingnotmemorable and a bunch of slum runners followed me. I made it out of the subway, when i returned I picked off the few remaining ones, but noticed many of the lower level players were now remains. This was not an explicit training, but i could not provide any evidence that it was not. It would be impossible to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that people are doing this willingly or just running away. In law courts people walk because of that much doubt.

    so,

    FC save your effort for real problems. If you are going to fix it, do it quietly not by telling us to behave, because the bad people wont behave, and then the rest of us will be disadvantaged due to our good behavior.
    PLEASE, give use a simple YES or no answer as to whether or not the CoH chests can be opened

  9. #9

    Re: Training mobs

    Originally posted by Animosity


    It is risky to all parties involved

    It is the essence of charming mobs.

    Ani.
    if someone is taking a risk from the pulling, i dont consider it griefing. not at all. the person attacked would then prob be able to get some aggro back onto the puller and even the damage some.....

    however. as in my own case, there was no risk involved. whatsoever for the part training mobs. is that not griefing?


    And. in the essence of charming mobs. when u charm u are able to use the mob as a pet type. u prob wont charm the red mobs, as they are to hard. and u wont charm the grey ones cause they dont do decent damage. a charmed pet wouldnt be able to attack someone alot lower cause of the level restrictions also apply to them..

    again when cz talks of pulling as something bad, i think that only goes for the battles where someone alot higher pulls for an example 20 lvl 40 mobs on a lvl 25 player. u still dont consider that bad? well i do.


    bottom line. if ur a lvl 25 in in a battle where the number of ppl opposing u are more, i cant see something wrong in pulling some mobs as there is risk involved for the puller.
    if no risk. pulling /nono
    Neque porro quisquam est qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit...

    .Hack//Sign

  10. #10

    Rodeo?

    Originally posted by Animosity


    This man has never been to a rodeo. Not that a rodeo is RL, unless you ask the bulls, or the clowns.
    Well, you are in fact entirely correct, I have indeed never been to a rodeo. But I have seen rodeos on TV and in movies a bit, I have read about it in books and I do believe that it is very uncommon (even in Texas) for, say, a rodeoist (or whatever) to start whipping a bull, get it really angry, lead the bull over to an unsuspecting competitor, and then jump over the fence to watch that someone be gored by a raging bull.

    And you know what? If you DID do that at a rodeo, I bet they would ban your hiney for the rest of eternity, although knowing those good ole boys they might just decide to PvP flag you instead, with predictable results.

    And someone PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong here, as this is just a general impression I have of rodeos, based on media impressions that I know are not 100% reliable.

    Yes, sometimes training does happen accidentally, and yes it is sometimes hard to prove that it was indeed griefing, but sometimes it is neither too, and then it is not allowed.
    Reverend Revelator Ramagano, Proud Something of Alpha Omega

    Alpha Omega: Fighting For Your Future, Today

    No, I'm not back.

    How embarrassing, after all these years it turns out I CAN'T spell **ncom with an F and a U, talk about egg on my face eh?

  11. #11

    rodeo bull training

    here is the view of the clowns in a rodeo.

    (i am entirely against rodeos, meat consumption and unnecessary cruelty)

    A bull (or bronco) is put into a corral, a rope is tied around his body, just up from his hind legs, this is what causes the kicking. Then a rider is put on the back, the gate opens, and the rider gets points for how long he stays on.

    The ring also has clowns, who's job it is to protect the rider. The rider always gets thrown at some point, at that point the clowns create an distraction. one of the clowns job is to remove the rope that is making the animal kick. Then the animal is taken away and served as burgers.

    I have thought of another example though which is a little more clear cut.

    remember in grade 3 when sneekyassvillan went up to dumbasox bully and hit him in the back of the head, and then ran? The dumbasox (or dumbasatrox) turns sees you (the scrawnywimpwhogrowsuptobewhinymmorpgplayer) and owns him. You probably cried griefing and nerf to your teacherwhowantedtoseethecrappunchedoutofyou who said that it was griefing and that this should be stopped. In fact she did as much to write a letter to dumbasoxparents telling them how bad this was. But lets be realistic, kids are still doing this exact same things despite years of good intentions and attempted nerfs. Lets be honest, we all have played all those roles in that situation, we all have been training the bully, and have been the targets. We all have tried it and it has failed and you got owned. It is all the thrill of victory and misery of defeat that creates the joy that is life. If you are not prepaired to play the game, then stay home, and watch movies. If you are going to put yourself into a mass interaction environment such as school, or anarchy online, all the same behavioral traits will manifest.

    Cz is just playing the role of the teacher, we are the bad kids. This is all human behavior, (and other races that have joined us though you cant tell because they are on the internet)

    I think AO is an amazingly safe place to not be involved in PVP combat. Compaired to other games, I have little problems in AO. If we continue to ask for more and more protections, we will end up like american playgrounds which have banned all slides, teetertooters, ladders and so on because of the chance of someone getting hurt.

    One of the facts of life is been a n00b should suck. You realize your position and then take joy when you realized that you are not being killed by the same situation. You should realize that PVP is not for you at certain levels, because then there is a reward for progression. I love the fact that some of my characters are no longer killed by backyard leets, and now are killing leets in one shot. The same goes for this rather whiny situation in question. I have seen mobs being trained on others, and not on me because I am red to them. That is progress, and it is the reward for the 1000000 bs missions I have done.

    So, please dont turn AO into a safe playground, let reward for progression continue.
    PLEASE, give use a simple YES or no answer as to whether or not the CoH chests can be opened

  12. #12
    Ok, I dont know squat about rodeos, and I care even less about them. If training mobs in not intended by the designers, then the ability to do so, by definition, is an exploit. Yes, the game mechanics allow it, so what? They allow all sorts of odd things that we're not supposed to be able to do. Just who do you think you are that you know better than CZ as to whats griefing(since he and his gang make the rules and the definitions of such), what are unintended effects of certain game mechanics, and what are exploits?

    You can use things to achieve a purpose as you say. So what? If that purpose was not what was intended, then its an exploit, pure and simple. Thats the definition of exploits.

    "Being a noob should suck" Thats just assinine. If it sucks to play this game when you start out, why would anyone want to keep playing? If you dont enjoy it, and AO is a game thats supposed to be entertaining after all, then dont play. If this game is only fun after you have invested several months into making an "Uber twink" in order to reach a level where you can enjoy the game, then I really dont see why someone would want to begin playing in the first place. Of course, all of that only holds true if your assertion that being a noob should suck holds true...
    Last edited by Oddfellow; Jan 15th, 2003 at 17:44:33.
    You can reason with ignorance, but its pointless to argue with stupidity. Take care which category you fall into.

  13. #13
    If doing things the designers never intended is an exploit, then we should be whining about Atroxes and thongs.

    Read the rules of mmorpgs, one of the maxims is that the player base will always do things in ways that the designers never intended. Infact it is true of all products, all things, we all are violating intentions. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

    I work in software testing. As far as I am concerned, there is no such thing as an exploit, only pourly written code. This attitude improves product quality. It forces the design companies to be active and responsible rather than a nerf / patch / ban mentality which is prevalent in too many design houses, including FC.

    There might be an exploit if there is a commonly known problem that people are using, but if FC doesn't fix it then we should not be responsible for using it. A good example would be org banks, there was a problem, they terminated the functionality ingame, then fixed it.

    What Cz's warning basically does is telling us to be nice. Let's bring reality in here, there are a good number of people who don't know this is bad behavior, who feel this is part of the game, and who are going to do it, and those who do it purposely. Why would I disadvantage myself by not using the best of all tactics to defend myself against ignorance and evil.

    Anyway, this is rather a moot point for me, I have not played in over a week, and cant see myself logging on again until after next patch is applied.
    PLEASE, give use a simple YES or no answer as to whether or not the CoH chests can be opened

  14. #14
    Originally posted by Animosity

    Cz

    Sorry to hear your opinion about training mobs being an exploit.

    I work in software testing. As far as I am concerned, there is no such thing as an exploit, only pourly written code. This attitude improves product quality. It forces the design companies to be active and responsible rather than a nerf / patch / ban mentality which is prevalent in too many design houses, including FC.

    There might be an exploit if there is a commonly known problem that people are using, but if FC doesn't fix it then we should not be responsible for using it. A good example would be org banks, there was a problem, they terminated the functionality ingame, then fixed it.

    What Cz's warning basically does is telling us to be nice.
    First of all, what Cz stated was not an "opinion" ... because he is a customer service representative, his statement is backed by the authority of the company. It's a rule. No equivocating or trying to lesson it by telling him he's wrong or that the concept is wrong is going to change that fact.

    You also cannot compare this environment to any other sort of software industry. Figuring out a way that wasn't intended to change blue to aquamarine on my graphics program... sure, thats not an exploit. But its a completely different setting.

    Exploit policies are designed for a very simple reason. To prevent people with experience in the game from ruining the fun for everyone else. There are plenty of 'tricks' to PvP that should be considered exploits but I have to wonder how many of them have ever been reported. I've seen some of them get reported and strangely enough they are fixed... others are kept as secret as possible so that they remain 'inside knowledge' by these experienced people you refer to.

    Part of the problem is that we don't have a book of rules that say what is intended. However, we have the responsibility to report su****ious applications of mechanics so that FC can look at them and decide whether or not to fix them with code. And when FC says, yes... this is indeed something you should not do... well, then don't do it.

    If you are so bored by the fact that you can't kill people using this sort of technique any more that you want to leave (and want to blame that boredom on the victims of your tactics), then I for one wouldn't be sorry to see you go. I don't expect everyone to share my outlook on gameplay, but it bothers me when people think its right to tell the people who write the rules that they're wrong and that because of the whiny people who report violations of those rules they're the cause of 'veterans' quitting the game because its no fun anymore.

  15. #15
    Originally posted by Jaesic

    I don't expect everyone to share my outlook on gameplay, but it bothers me when people think its right to tell the people who write the rules that they're wrong and that because of the whiny people who report violations of those rules they're the cause of 'veterans' quitting the game because its no fun anymore.
    Amen.
    You can reason with ignorance, but its pointless to argue with stupidity. Take care which category you fall into.

  16. #16
    Scenario: A bunch of lowbie clanners are attacking a base, killing off omni lowbies as they attack. A high level omni decides to end the fight in one fell swoop. High level omni goes to a different part of the map and aggro's a slayer which he then pulls to the base, at which point he terminates. The slayer then proceeds to slaughter the lowbie clanners, ending the assault.

    If that isn't exploiting game mechanics to greif then I don't know what is. And I feel sorry for the person who thinks this is all right. And I'll be happy and satisfied when funcom bans their sorry asses.


    *note: this is not an omni bad/clan good post. that scenario could as easily been a clanner pulling a sentinel or something. So no need to get your panties in a twist defending omni honor.
    Sredniaka Sherrmanaka Posthasteaka Thanatopsysaka Vashtareliusaka Nnerroaka Alexxander

    "Quidquid latine dictum, sit altum viditur"

    Sredni Vashtar went forth,
    His thoughts were red thoughts and his teeth were white.
    His enemies called for peace, but he brought them death.
    Sredni Vashtar the Beautiful.
    by HH Munro

  17. #17
    Originally posted by Animosity
    If doing things the designers never intended is an exploit, then we should be whining about Atroxes and thongs.
    I do! I do!
    Isadara level 214 NT AL 12 (Gear and Perks)-- Rimor
    Valdene level 197 Fixer (Gear and Perks) -- Rimor

    General of Project Eden

  18. #18
    Originally posted by Jaesic


    You also cannot compare this environment to any other sort of software industry. Figuring out a way that wasn't intended to change blue to aquamarine on my graphics program... sure, thats not an exploit. But its a completely different setting.

    ---------------------

    Part of the problem is that we don't have a book of rules that say what is intended.

    Issue 1: unfortunately this behavior and attitude is transferrable to other industries. This is why I refuse to ever buy a Ford. Ford had the Patch it later mentality, and if you are a Ford owner, you will think recalls are a part of life. If you have a nicely engineered car you would be hard pressed to remember a recall. I suppose i am talking about the part of this attitude that is transferrable and simular between many industries, the build, sell then repair.

    Issue 2: this is probably the best peice of wisdom that i have seen in a forum: we dont have a book of rules. It appears that the designers are having difficulty with their books of rules. Again, if they had a proper set of consistent, logical requirements, it would have been much easier for them to create and maintain this development project. Unfortunately few design houses have the luxury of developing their requirements before hand, and maintaining them as changes come to the system. To be fair, if you read through the forums you will find that many post ask for contradictory things.

    Now stepping back from the discussion a bit, i see the example you are making where someone purposely does something that others cannot defend against. I agree this is horrid tactics, and would be surprized if a fix is not being worked on right now. On the other hand, I have never complained about it, as I believe this is part of life, and an excellent strategy move. If they fixed it so the slayerdroid would not attack the n00bs after being attacked by a higher creature, I wouldn't complain.

    I understand that customer service has to make that announcement so they can then try and make rubi ka a nice playground for people. I think they are taking off too many of the rough edges from the game.

    If you are wondering what my solution to this particular problem would be:
    1. Assign hate to the aggro character, and then a cool down period for the creature after the aggro'd character leaves. during the hate/cool down period the mob would not attack lowbies. (instant problem with that is that a high lvl character could draw off all the mobs while lowbies walk into a previously guarded area. that would be fixible with playfield changes)
    2. Omni's to admit they are wrong and join the clans.
    PLEASE, give use a simple YES or no answer as to whether or not the CoH chests can be opened

  19. #19
    OMG this is almost as good as Jodocast's "enforcer is the nerfest profession in the game thread"

    This must not leave the top for a while.

  20. #20
    Originally posted by Jaesic


    If you are so bored by the fact that you can't kill people using this sort of technique any more that you want to leave (and want to blame that boredom on the victims of your tactics), then I for one wouldn't be sorry to see you go. I don't expect everyone to share my outlook on gameplay, but it bothers me when people think its right to tell the people who write the rules that they're wrong and that because of the whiny people who report violations of those rules they're the cause of 'veterans' quitting the game because its no fun anymore.
    I dont consider myself a vet, My highest lvl character is lvl 90. I dont like PVP so would not use this in the game. If i am bored, its because I have been playing for nearly a year.

    As for opinion and rights and wrong. There is God, and everything else is opinion. I guess what I should have said, to not raise your hackles, was that I believe game play would be better for me, and the people who I play with if this functionality was left in the game, and we dont appreciate being told we are wrong. To say "you are wrong" right back matches the pettyness of the person who started the condemnations. so, Cz you are wrong.

    As for quitting, why would I if I play any other online game, all the same issues are going to be there, with the same type of people in the forums and gameplay. I think AO is superior to all other games in this genre in terms of gameplay and ways to enjoy the game. I think FC is doing their best. This said, I dont think AO is perfect, or that FC's decisions infallible. Its not evil to day that a bad decision is wrong.
    PLEASE, give use a simple YES or no answer as to whether or not the CoH chests can be opened

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