I really dont understand why CZ's post wasnt the end of this discussion. FC considers what happened to be griefing. Whats really funny are all the posts quoting CZ and then saying, "Your wrong." Yeah, I guess the people that make the rules dont understand them as well as those who just complain about them...
Would it be nice if it just werent possible to train mobs? Sure, but it is, and until it isnt the rules that FC gives us need to stand(and be enforced).
when ppl are saying cz are wrong they always refer to lagalot and the battle of the old dragon tarasque.
but. do we not have other rules in camelot that are unique to that place. as in no engi warping.
i know of no other place where funcom says this is illegal.
look at the pulling. its illegal in the outside world. considered griefing. this has been stated by a employe of funcom in this very thread. But does this also apply to camelot? I really do have no idea. but seeing as a gm told ppl at tara it wasnt considered griefing there. i guess it isnt. i really dont know until someone from funcom can state what is right.
Neque porro quisquam est qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit...
.Hack//Sign
Carebear = anyone that whines when being killed in a online game by one or multiple players that use whatever methods they want to achieve their goal which is killing person X (ie : tp jumping on D2, usual team jumping on UO, sewers killing in Neocron, etc...). IF you dont like this methods then you're a carebear end of storyOriginally posted by Aqua
hehe yeah I love it when people cheat and when you call them on it they call you a whiner, or my favorite is they cheat you call them on it and they say some sentence with the word "carebear" in it. Carebear is what their doing since they can't seem to win honestly they have to cheat, thats lame and weak. I am Omni and I dont' condone cheating and its not just omni I've seen plenty of cheating on the clan side.
Oh and for gods sake just because the game lets you do it doesn't mean its not cheating. I can reach over and take all the money out of the bank in monopoly and the game doesn't do a thing, so I guess thats not cheating either.
~aqua
Btw i got no enforcer
Infamine200 soljah
Cz's post came from "Customer Service" I will await an official FC comment from "designers" or others with "authority" and even if such a statement is forthcoming will disagree. There is too much that can go wrong with this kind of strategy to call it grief training. There is really little similarity between the two actions.
I see that NOBODY wants to address my point that tower defense training can just as easily backfire on the defenders.
It didn't and can't backfire on the defenders in that case. The lvl 199 enf was in no danger of even the possibility of the training tactic backfiring.Originally posted by Sanskrit
I see that NOBODY wants to address my point that tower defense training can just as easily backfire on the defenders.
In a situation in which training could easily backfire, the tactic wouldn't be used. I don't think so at least.
Last edited by Zane0; Jan 12th, 2003 at 23:40:04.
Just how exactly can training mobs on attackers backfire when there are no defenders that the mobs can possibly damage? Do you suppose that the mobs, goaded into a rage by the lvl 199 person they cant hurt will decide to vent their frustration on the towers instead of attacking the players that they can kill? Or maybe the mobs will call in their 'mains' to deal with the people that have irked them so, just like the leets threaten to do?
You can reason with ignorance, but its pointless to argue with stupidity. Take care which category you fall into.
Customer Service is the highest authoroty you will find on the matter. They make the rules. They enforce them.Originally posted by Sanskrit
Cz's post came from "Customer Service" I will await an official FC comment from "designers" or others with "authority" and even if such a statement is forthcoming will disagree.
And while you may disagree as much as you want, the rule stands.
Last edited by Cz; Jan 13th, 2003 at 08:20:29.
/me bows before the almighty
Neque porro quisquam est qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit...
.Hack//Sign
I want an Ian Warr, The Obedient enforcer and possible The diamondine Soldier defending my lvl 150 tower please!
CZ- OK, so we know its a rule (very ahppy about that) but what do we do when someone breaks it? Cause you know they will. Petition? That always ends the same "Sorry, I didnt get here in time to see it happen. Nothing I can do." No offense, but I've never actually seen anyone enforce these rules, so whats to stop these cheaters from ruining play for the rest of us? Is there anyway to log the actions of players (not just the chat report) to prove whats going on?
FakoNamo: You talk to the oposing leader if it happens, and make sure your own people don't use it. Talking is a very efficient way to solve missunderstanding fast
And I guess they will do it if someone resolves to using the tactic repeatedly.
No, what if defenders showed up while the mobs were in the tower area? What if the mobs were charmed by a crat? My point is that whereas in normal grief traininig the trainer is gone with no consequences, it is not a given that this is so in tower wars.Originally posted by Zane0
It didn't and can't backfire on the defenders in that case.
If a crat charms a mob, then its a pet. And pets got PvP restrictions.
If the pet PvP restrictions worked from the owners level instead, the owner still would have to charm it, and be within the attackers level range.
Cant be compared at all...
I hope you have another attitude while talking to support staff ingame, Sanskrit.
Mobs won't attack towers and towers won't attack mobs. That leaves only the target of the train at risk.Originally posted by Sanskrit
No, what if defenders showed up while the mobs were in the tower area? What if the mobs were charmed by a crat? My point is that whereas in normal grief traininig the trainer is gone with no consequences, it is not a given that this is so in tower wars.
What if they have a crat? They'd have to bring a crat for every mob in the train. And a higher level player could always bring a mob that the lower levels are incapable of charming due to psychic restrictions.
History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris
The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown
Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio
A software company run by customer service... what a novel concept. You just answered a ton of questions I have always had about how a basically brilliantly designed product can be so flawed in so many ways in its details.Originally posted by Cz
Customer Service is the highest authoroty you will find on the matter. They make the rules. They enforce them.
And while you may disagree as much as you want, the rule stands.
For instance, I now know (in no particular order):
why rubber banding/warping in missions, a serious problem, remains unfixed after more than a month;
why 95% of the weapons in the game are not different or unique, but just useless mesh-garbage;
why NONE of the tradeskill weapons (the ones you build not the ones you have to find people to crack open) are useful;
why there is no way to gain any meaningful experience/advancement in the game by doing tradeskills;
why pet-pathing is still broken;
why the items in the new database for the next patch (that are supposed to keep us here as opposed to SWG (snicker) are for the most part mediocre and address hardly ANY of the concerns of the professionals program set up to respond to the needs of professionals;
why the profession-specific rings in the game are ill-suited to the profession they are intended for and why everyone has to kill the same mob or a clone of him to get them (LOL);
why the NW system was introduced in which you seek to drive away customers by creating a war in the game between the side with all the players who literally live in computer games and the side of generally more casual players (was there any kind of simple demographic sifting done during the creation of NW? would be very surprised if there were);
why there are so many gaping holes/exploits in the tower combat system;
why crowd control is broken;
why the loot distribution system in the game (uber placeholder mob must be killed by 30 people 3 times to spawn the loot-holding mob that has a 1/4 drop rate) is boring, frustrating and downright unfun;
why there are professions in the game (bureaucrat, engineer) that are allowed to literally wither away without at least the comment/warning that this is being done intentionally;
why pvp is dominated by half of the professions and most of the other professions can't compete on a level playing field;
why damage in pvp is perpetually nerfed while healing and offensive nanos remain as powerful; on the odd chance that anyone who works in "customer service" has ever played Anarchy Online, have them stop by a tower fight and look at all the player characters being snared drained debuffed nuked and dotted so that only 20% of anyone's time on the battlefield is spent with any fighting capacity whatsoever; but, oh, guess that's more FUN if you don't die as fast... LOL;
why cookie cutter rules like the "no training" rule are thoughtlessly applied obviously without any reflection on detail
why there seem to be twice as many AO accounts for sale on ebay as there were last month;
My fun factor in the game is hovering at 50/50 atm. Good to know who makes the rules and who puts the "fun" in Funcom...
You know good and well that's not what I said.Originally posted by Kuroshio
Mobs won't attack towers
LOL... or what? What exactly are you saying/threatening here? What are you an Ark or something? Gah if FC allows Arks to post opinions and debate on the forums that's another item for my list above.Originally posted by Snublefot
I hope you have another attitude while talking to support staff ingame, Sanskrit.
Edit: And by the way, since when is stating disagreement with a rule an "attitude" problem? Do you think you might be being a little condescending here?
Last edited by Jutlina; Jan 13th, 2003 at 17:17:58.
Its generally an "attitude problem" when the people enforcing the rules disagree with them, its the only way they have to distance themselves from having to be the bad guy when they'd rather agree with you. After all, they tend to have to bear the brunt of the 'attitude' but have no real control over how things are done.Originally posted by Sanskrit
LOL... or what? What exactly are you saying/threatening here? What are you an Ark or something? Gah if FC allows Arks to post opinions and debate on the forums that's another item for my list above.
Edit: And by the way, since when is stating disagreement with a rule an "attitude" problem? Do you think you might be being a little condescending here?
Don't know if thats the case here, but I've seen it a lot of times in the past.
As to your (Sanskrit) comments about the problems with the game being Cz's/CS flaws... he said they are the authority on the rules and their enforcement, he never said they are the ultimate authority on the game as a whole. CS is the intermediary between designers/programmers and the players.. and thats the way it should be. Designers and programmers aren't paid enough have to deal with people constantly attacking their work (neither are CS people really, but they can at least distance themselves from it because its not their own work they are defending). And if they are spending time dealing with people like you attacking them, they're not doing what we ARE paying them for... and thats providing new material, fixing old problems, and so forth.
Last edited by Jaesic; Jan 13th, 2003 at 17:30:13.
And I now know why I don't have childrenOriginally posted by Sanskrit
A software company run by customer service... what a novel concept. You just answered a ton of questions I have always had about how a basically brilliantly designed product can be so flawed in so many ways in its details.
For instance, I now know (in no particular order):
...
My fun factor in the game is hovering at 50/50 atm. Good to know who makes the rules and who puts the "fun" in Funcom...
Verant is the developer of Everquest and Star Wars Galaxies. They're the programmers and designers for the whole shebang.
However, Sony Online Entertainment and their Customer Support Representattives are responsible for the creation and enforcement of Policy in those games. Same goes for Turbine/Microsoft
History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris
The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown
Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio
Havent read the whole thread ,my time is limited as of late. Yes you are a whiner. Put out the calls to the higher level peeps to come fight em off it is a 25% zone. If people are getting banned for this then they should be unbanned. All is fair in love and war and this is war, or so I am told. If we keep getting all of this structure forced upon us pretty soon "anarchy online" will need to be renamed. Yes it may make you mad and thats good. Get a little fired up and ........ win or lose,go out and fight.
Yesiamstoned 152NT RK2
PS. If anyone out there finds my name could you return it to me !
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