As NW stands at the moment, its only really meaningful at high levels (150+). Anything else is just high-levels in disguise (twinked alts). Basically, the fundamental design of NWdoes not work at lower levels.
As NW stands at the moment, its only really meaningful at high levels (150+). Anything else is just high-levels in disguise (twinked alts). Basically, the fundamental design of NWdoes not work at lower levels.
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That's not exactly true Jynne. First time people with their 'mains' in those level ranges may participate in an org that supports that range but they are very rarely forming their own orgs just so they can use NW. An org that is really recruiting people under level 70 is capable of recruiting people regularly so that when one person levels out of range, they can shift their personal towers to a higher level base while new members in the lower range can build.Originally posted by Jynne
BrutalThug: Yes, NW is pvp-range driven. That's exactly why newcomers to AO won't have a chance to participate - their lowbies are their mains, and they keep leveling. One day they build a tower, two days later they're too high level to keep it.
In the mean time, high level people can twink the heck out of an alt and just park them at level 40, say. So when it comes time to fight a level 40 tower battle, it will be fought mostly by the level 40 alts of level 200 mains. The real level 40s who might have built that base, are level 55 now and aren't allowed to defend it.
Also, you say two days later they are too high level to keep it... thats also not completely true, because you are thinking about the pace that someone with experience and credits support can follow to level... not the pace at which a real new player does.
That player might level out of range of their level 10 personal tower, but nothing is stopping them from taking that one down and putting up a level 15 or 20 the next week that they CAN defend. And if the org stops recruiting and they now have a full membership that is level 50-70 instead of 10-30, they start looking for a new site and find an org on their side that they can pass the old site down to.
Now... the real issue that this brings up is this. Who benefits more from a level 30 base... a bunch of twinks who are only logged on so they can participate in PvP connected with NW... or a bunch of real level 30-ish characters who are using the base to give their characters who aren't twinked some useful advantages? I can't imagine a level 30 guardian of life tower gives a very decent hp bonus to someone who is twinked like crazy and never fights without an essense of behemoth. Is the 30ql worth of org advantages worth convincing new players not to waste their time with PvP?
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Training mobs on other players is considered disruptive gameplay / harassment / griefing / whatever you wanna call it. That you do it to defend your base (or attack somebody else's) does not make a difference.
The attack ranges is a design issue, and should - if needed - be solved with design changes, not by changing (or making exceptions to) disruptive gameplay policies.
Thanks Cz... I, for one, am very very very happy to see this comment.Originally posted by Cz
Training mobs on other players is considered disruptive gameplay / harassment / griefing / whatever you wanna call it. That you do it to defend your base (or attack somebody else's) does not make a difference.
The attack ranges is a design issue, and should - if needed - be solved with design changes, not by changing (or making exceptions to) disruptive gameplay policies.
I totally disagree with this statement.Originally posted by Snublefot
Training mobs on low level players is griefing. No matter if the low level attacking your base or not.
Training mobs is, IMO, a great strategy for tower defense. You are enlisting the aid of the local fauna to help defend from someone who is seeking to take something of yours. THE MOBS CAN JUST AS EASILY ATTACK YOU. YOU CAN'T JUST RUN AWAY LIKE IN A NORMAL TRAINING SITUATION. This tactic is not even remotely similar to typical grief training. Taking a "griefing" definition and applying it to a strategic game mechanic is just wrong. So FC will continue the trend of narrowing and narrowing our options in the game. Currently, the essence of tower wars is "Whomever can get X number of Doctors and Traders to the towers first wins." THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE.
"You should have alts;" "Mount a proper defense" arguments are weak. So now in addition to FC trying to hardwire me to the game, I have to develop certain levels of alts??? HA!
Have been spending alot more time on the SWG web page. Maybe it would be worth it to go through the initial pangs of a new game and try to find a company that WANTS MY BUSINESS.
It blows my mind that people equate this to grief training. The differences are literally in your face and no I am not going to spend huge amounts of time defending this position here to people who won't see the difference. It is that obvious.
ooo ooo, but FC says training is wrong no matter what?!? I don't care. If the situation arises, I WILL DO IT EVERY TIME. Ban me.
On New Years Eve, my group's attack on a base was totally disrupted by the defender training borg and mantis into the tower area. Bravo to the defenders, excellent tactics! I have new-found respect for a couple of enemy fixers who SAVED THEIR BASE with quick thinking.
If what Cz posted is FC's official position on this and not some email response he got from a marketing person, then FC is dead wrong on this.
LOL, I have advocated for unwritten rules in one place and ignoring "written" rules in another. Oh well...
Last edited by Jutlina; Jan 9th, 2003 at 18:01:29.
For people who team up, total newbie or not, twinked or not, leveling is extremely fast until the title 3 cap (80 or so). People in orgs (ie, people who can build towers) will tend to find teams through their orgs, and therefore they will level at team pace, with support and help from their guild, not at solo newbie pace.Originally posted by Jaesic
That's not exactly true Jynne. First time people with their 'mains' in those level ranges may participate in an org that supports that range but they are very rarely forming their own orgs just so they can use NW. An org that is really recruiting people under level 70 is capable of recruiting people regularly so that when one person levels out of range, they can shift their personal towers to a higher level base while new members in the lower range can build.
True, an org that is actively recruiting low level people can consistently retain a low level base. Heck, just plunk a recruiter in front of the popular newbie mission terminals and you'll keep up your newbie quotas. However, you assume 1 - that they have a higher level base to shift existing members to as they level; 2 - that real newbies will be interested in PvP; 3 - that the real newbies will be capable of success in PvP. There's also 4 - most people tend to snicker and make fun of guilds that just vacuum up newbies as a source of recruits and they have a hideously hard time retaining enough people at high levels to progress beyond the stage of 'newbie guild.'
On the other hand, an org of high level people who add their level 40 PvP twinks that never level, never have to recruit, never have to worry about 'trading up' with their base, are experienced at PvP and are much more powerful than real newbies even without outside buffing.Addressed above... in a decent org you'll level fast, newbie or not. In a non-decent org, you won't have a realistic chance to hold a base anyway.Also, you say two days later they are too high level to keep it... thats also not completely true, because you are thinking about the pace that someone with experience and credits support can follow to level... not the pace at which a real new player does.Again this assumes that they have the opportunity to build on a bigger or slightly bigger base. Their organization may not have the land for it.That player might level out of range of their level 10 personal tower, but nothing is stopping them from taking that one down and putting up a level 15 or 20 the next week that they CAN defend.It's almost impossible for non-twinks to get a base in the low QL range if they don't take it from someone on their own side. Level 50 Omni mains will not on their own get to Wailing Wastes or Athen Shire in numbers enough to take over a base; if they do take a base they'll never defend it against the Clan twinks who'll come take it back because it's an eyesore to them. The only way characters of the right level range to attack the low level towers of the other faction will actually reach their targets in decent numbers, is if they have people helping them with beacon warp and the team fixer grid. And then, they're cut off from support by other orgs when the counterattack comes.And if the org stops recruiting and they now have a full membership that is level 50-70 instead of 10-30, they start looking for a new site and find an org on their side that they can pass the old site down to.That's the only thing that's keeping the twink orgs from ruling the low level world - it's not worth it. But the worth-it-ness of the bonuses won't stop them from going on an afternoon rampage or two, for the sake of having fun.Now... the real issue that this brings up is this. Who benefits more from a level 30 base... a bunch of twinks who are only logged on so they can participate in PvP connected with NW... or a bunch of real level 30-ish characters who are using the base to give their characters who aren't twinked some useful advantages? I can't imagine a level 30 guardian of life tower gives a very decent hp bonus to someone who is twinked like crazy and never fights without an essense of behemoth. Is the 30ql worth of org advantages worth convincing new players not to waste their time with PvP?
Edit - or for the sake of getting those last 4 points from a ransacking tower to put on their ql 100 weapon at level 30
Last edited by Jynne; Jan 9th, 2003 at 17:53:05.
Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
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Does this also apply to Camelot now?Originally posted by Cz
Training mobs on other players is considered disruptive gameplay / harassment / griefing / whatever you wanna call it. That you do it to defend your base (or attack somebody else's) does not make a difference.
The attack ranges is a design issue, and should - if needed - be solved with design changes, not by changing (or making exceptions to) disruptive gameplay policies.
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Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.
Hey u are quoting me!Originally posted by BrutalThug
"Hell it would be more fun if u guys actually came to defend ur towers instead of just whining on the forums..."
And here I was just logged in on the forums to quote u!
About low lvl PvP... Well im running a mid-high lvl guild, and we have have a twink army to protect our low lvl tower...
As it is, the advantages lowlvl tower gives are so small that they arent worth it for either twinks, normal lowlvls or even n00bs...
The 40 extra lvls we get to our universal advantages for a ql 20 tower however is, and this gives all members of the guild nomather lvl, a nice advantage... Thats why we have these twinks, and its also fun to play then in defending the base and attacking others...
A n00b would most likely not build any towers at lvl 20... he has just gotten out in the world... i dont know half of it, and has alot he needs to do before he would join the pvp wars... and would be out of defend range after a few weeks...
Another normal lvl 20 will be lvl 30 the next day or the next week and not able to defend his tower...
A twink will be useing these advantages alot more than any of the above, and he will also be able to defend his advantages for a much longer time + he wants to do that too, while the other just pray they never gets attacked...
I dont see anything wrong in the fact that twinks runs low lvl pvp...
So what about the crats,
If i charm to mobs bring them over and then pet free,is this
going to get me banned, i think this is the best thing a crat can do to defend this tower nothing like bringing some mechdogs,OT npcs to a battle,ans watch them attack people
Because if any 1 complaned about this i might as well give up being a crat
Level 20-30s attacking a level 20-30 base, regardless of what classes, faction or level own the base, is not an exploit. Not agreeing with the rules do not make them an exploit. Plus, if it is an exploit, as many of you are claiming, then why is no one being suspended or banned?
Bottom line, don't place a tower outside your PvP range. If you do, you do so by your own choice, no one elses, and you will suffer the consequences of your own actions. Live with your own decision and stop trying to place the blame elsewhere.
I agree with you 100%. In fact the training I was talking about in my previous post was 50% this type of training because the opponent had a crat there who was too low to fight but high enough to charm mobs and dump them near the tower.Originally posted by cybernetic
So what about the crats,
If i charm to mobs bring them over and then pet free,is this
going to get me banned, i think this is the best thing a crat can do to defend this tower nothing like bringing some mechdogs,OT npcs to a battle,ans watch them attack people
Because if any 1 complaned about this i might as well give up being a crat
Look if the sides are evenly matched, this is not an issue. Only a fool would train charm/release mobs that were just as likely to attack friends as enemies.
But when FCs ASININE ideas of what makes for "fair" level restrictions around towers results in a total imbalance of attackers and defenders, or when there are few defenders available, i.e. offline and NOT PLAYING THE GAME, then these types of tactics are really all that is left for those attempting to PROTECT THEIR INGAME PROPERTY.
Two paragraphs that, while a bit off-topic, sum up why low level NW will be driven by PvP/NW twinks.Originally posted by Cemetarygate
Level 20-30s attacking a level 20-30 base, regardless of what classes, faction or level own the base, is not an exploit. Not agreeing with the rules do not make them an exploit. Plus, if it is an exploit, as many of you are claiming, then why is no one being suspended or banned?
Bottom line, don't place a tower outside your PvP range. If you do, you do so by your own choice, no one elses, and you will suffer the consequences of your own actions. Live with your own decision and stop trying to place the blame elsewhere.
Twinks that reach a certain level and stop, don't outlevel their bases. Mains don't reach a certain level and stop, so they will continuously outlevel their towers and lose them because they can't defend them anymore, until they reach title 5 and can build 150+ bases.
Assuming they bother to continually conquer bases that they'll only outlevel anyway.
The only thing related to this post that I would consider an exploit, by the way, is using the grace period and/or PvP bracket immunity from being attacked to train mobs while you yourself can't be killed by the other side's players.
Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
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Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.
aren´t you the guy advocating for fair play and honor in another thread?Originally posted by Sanskrit
I totally disagree with this statement.
Training mobs is, IMO, a great strategy for tower defense.
It blows my mind that people equate this to grief training. The differences are literally in your face and no I am not going to spend huge amounts of time defending this position here to people who won't see the difference. It is that obvious.
LOL, I have advocated for unwritten rules in one place and ignoring "written" rules in another. Oh well...
or is it possible that you are just out to attract flames?
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Could it be possible for someone to advocate people taking a more sportsmanlike attitude in the gameOriginally posted by Blackwing
aren´t you the guy advocating for fair play and honor in another thread?
or is it possible that you are just out to attract flames?
and
at the same time disagree with the improper "cookie cutter" application of a well-known rule to a situation entirely different from the situation the rule was designed to address?
cookie cutter application of rules is necessary unless you have a justice system in play that allows for trial of each individual case. if you can convince FC of recording enough data that every case could be verified on its on merits, I would support more flexible rules... but because there is no way whatsoever to deal with things on a case by case basis without completely destroying cost effectiveness on running the game, we'll just have to support cookie cutter laws.Originally posted by Sanskrit
Could it be possible for someone to advocate people taking a more sportsmanlike attitude in the game
and
at the same time disagree with the improper "cookie cutter" application of a well-known rule to a situation entirely different from the situation the rule was designed to address?
Originally posted by Cz
Training mobs on other players is considered disruptive gameplay / harassment / griefing / whatever you wanna call it. That you do it to defend your base (or attack somebody else's) does not make a difference.
The attack ranges is a design issue, and should - if needed - be solved with design changes, not by changing (or making exceptions to) disruptive gameplay policies.
Your lvl ranges suck, and so do all the wacked out game mechanics behind it.
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Woot! The Man has laid down the law!Originally posted by Cz
Training mobs on other players is considered disruptive gameplay / harassment / griefing / whatever you wanna call it. That you do it to defend your base (or attack somebody else's) does not make a difference.
The attack ranges is a design issue, and should - if needed - be solved with design changes, not by changing (or making exceptions to) disruptive gameplay policies.
Guys, at least have the common decency and intelligence to let noob attackers be wiped out by an army of twinks, in a perfectly legal manner that can't possibly be complained about, rather than have a lvl 199 enf who is for all intents and purposes invincible and untouchable slaughter them with a sneaky, underhanded and illegal method.
A properly twinked alt could slaughter any first time noob any day of the week, completely self-buffed, without resorting to ANY cheating (heck, not even a slight bending of the rules) of any kind, and it wouldn't take long and it wouldn't cost that much creds either.
See it from the newbie perspective: You attack a tower, a bunch of kickass mofos your own lvl show up and tattoo the motto "You Have Just Been OWNED By Org X! Thank You, Come Again!" on your behind, and you think: 'Wow, strong org, tough fighters, better stay away!'
But if you show up with say 10-15 other newbies to see what all the NW fuzz is about, and you get slaughtered indirectly, with a bannable offense no less, by a guy you have been told, by the powers that be, will be totally unable to attack you for the next 130 lvls, you'll think that something is rotten indeed. You'll discourage them greatly, and with that you hurt the game.
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How embarrassing, after all these years it turns out I CAN'T spell **ncom with an F and a U, talk about egg on my face eh?
A buncha interesting points. The next two situations I'm going to use both fall under the exploit of training mobs, but I can see how perceptions might be a bit different in each case. (Not that either case is right, since we've been told at NO time is training considered legal). Anyhoo..
Situation 1:
The example given by this thread's poster. High level char, at no risk to himself, essentially godlike compared to the lowbies he's indirectly beating on, trains waves of mobs to swarm the lowbie attackers.
This definately stinks because there is no risk at all to one side. He's not levelling the playing field, or making a situation that could potentially screw him up as well. So its not fair, or balanced, etc etc etc. Definately a cheap tactic.
Situation 2:
Taking the Perp. Wastelands NE notum field on RK2 as an example. It is situated in the middle of cyborg city. It'd be a pain for both attacker and defender to be in that zone having a tower fight when the zone is 25%. Everyone who shows up there is potentially at risk cause you've got like borgs to 3 sides of you. AND there can be mobs of 7+ borgs all milling around each other at any given location.
Here's where it gets a bit fuzzy. Cause now there is potential on both sides to get screwed by all the adds that mingle around there. I haven't been to Avalon let, but I'm think maybe thats the reason why its considered more allowable over there, cause there is risk to all involved, clan, omni or otherwise.
Btw, I tend to think this is a GREAT location for a base, and the clan that has the base there was very very smart (and lucky) in having the opportunity to setup a camp there. At no cost to themselves, they've managed to establish a force of towers + NPC guards
----
So I think both situations can result in a ban, but I can see why the 2nd is on-scale, less griefy than the 1st.
"What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul." -- to Billy Madison
i better post something. (being thread starter and all)
I never actually tought someone would support this kind of playing and im pleased to see others flaming them
About crat training mobs. if the crat was a 199 like the enf, i would consider it just as bad. if he had been attacked by 20 rats or whatever he still wouldnt get hit. thats not fair at all.
2 lvl 25's up against a godlikeish person pulling on u. Its like being lvl 25 at arena and evertime u steps into the pvp area a 200 enf comes and kills u. at lvl 25 my gun does 550 crit damage. if the person whom i critted had 5000 ac. i would hit for 50 points. do ppl consider that fair? thats why we have the pvp range for. and that was what i was there for. PvP!
a crat around my lvl would probably be able to pull some before he got killed by me. but thats what crats do. and since he was actually killable i wouldnt mind.
we are pretty far out in the game now. most ppl that have played this game for a while have a lvl 200. or more. its easy and fun to create a twink. doesnt have to be very uber really. i bet most ppl have some prof that u never play and just sits at one lvl anyway. why not reroll it for pvp?
oh well. my 2 cents.
and the area where the base was is still under clan control.
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ROFl....I'm glad I missed this thread. Needed a good laugh after looking at code all day.
Training mobs is against the rules, so quite simply I wouldn't do it. If it weren't against the rules...hrm(That should cover any replies from Sanskrit and Blackwing).
Given the particular situation, I'm curious as to why the level 199 enforcer didn't train a bunch of level 10 - 20 players on Tha Smurfy and friends. How do you 'train players'? Simple: you go to the city, find a bunch of newbies, and lead them back to the base with a trail of credits. Sheesh, level 199. He coulda 'rented' a brigade of n00bs to counterattack for him for about 50k-75k apiece at that level
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