high lvl pulling mobs on low level.. Am i a whiner?

[______________Zoltah]

I don't see how defending a base is griefing.
When I think of griefing I think about the bastard who pulls Ash on me because my team is killing smugglers. When I think of griefing I think of someone who is camping the director/TIM and deleting items off of the spawn that he doesn't need/can't sell because he thinks that I was rude to him in some way.

NW tower battles are war!! This isn't the arena where you're trying to prove who is the better pvp'er (or whatever else people are trying to prove in the arena ) I think anyone who goes into a tower battle without being outside buffed is foolish because someone else there will be. If you know that a guild has lot's of high lvl members who will pul on you because they can't actually attack you then set up a team or two on your attack force for taking out the mobs around the towers and in the area.

I find it amusing that strategy is automatically called griefing when it doesn't work out for you.

[Turin]

I agree 100%. when you attakc a base. you attack EVERYONE in the org. lvl 199 Enf down to the lvl 1 noob alt. They all have the right to protect there property in any way they can that the game mechanics allow as long is it is not an exploit.

GO MRS 199 ENFORCER!!!!!!!

You rock. Dont listen to these cry babies who get mad cause they couldnt own your towers, or take your land.

I would have done the same thing, and now that I have read this thread, I will likely do the same thing in the same situation

[Bionitrous]

Exactly what Jynne said. As a level 200, I shouldn't be able to go picking on the little level 30's and 50's. But, when a couple level 50's decide to attack an organization with more than a few high level characters, they deserve to get beaten. One, for not doing their homework and, two, for shear stupidity.

It's only through a loop-hole in the game mechanics that these couple people were able to take over that organization's towers. They exploited their inability to be attacked by the owners of the tower, who by all rights should have snuffed them out. I wouldn't condone training roller rats, but I understand completely the frustration of being violated by these people and not being allowed to redress the insult.

[Elektro]

I've heard recently that training mobs onto someone was a bannable offense. It's not something I practice, or encourage others to.

In this particular case, I don't think there is anything wrong with doing what the enfo did. I got to sit and watch a team of lvl 8-13 neutrals kill a CT , one of them happening to be a 'crat twinked using a Q25-30 Q bot. My soldier was lvl 19.

Standing by, watching your towers go down and not being able to do anything about it does suck, but I've got a twink along the way that will own self buffed or not.

~E

[Jynne]

By the by, as a point of fact, the only time I believe that training mobs is an offense, is when the people being trained on are not in a PvP area.

Training in camelot, for example, is considered a tactic by FC, not griefing. I see little reason why tower wars would be very different, no matter how lame it might be.

On the other hand, training in a 75% area is considered harrassment or griefing, if it's intentional. Such as Smuggler's Den.

[_____________Losobal]

Originally posted by Bionitrous


That's like a mother not being able to defend her pre-teen child against a rapist because she's 35 years old and he's only 17.

Um. No.

Tower pvp is made to allow all ranges of levels to theoretically fight their SAME range of levels without fear of getting ganked by some high level punk who thinks its ok for their 200 char to beat down level 10s. They had to put in limits because that's what would happen, then it'd simply be whoever had the most high level chars would own the world. Hell, for the most part thats still how tower pvp ends up, even with restrictions, but at least this way lowbies can participate. Otherwise you'd have teams of lowbies getting chain AoE nuked by level 200 NTs, and what fun would that be?

If an organization can't field the people it needs to defend its low level towers, or can't get support from their side to support their low level towers, then simply: they don't deserve to have low level towers.

[Jynne]

Originally posted by Losobal


Um. No.

Tower pvp is made to allow all ranges of levels to theoretically fight their SAME range of levels without fear of getting ganked by some high level punk who thinks its ok for their 200 char to beat down level 10s. They had to put in limits because that's what would happen, then it'd simply be whoever had the most high level chars would own the world. Hell, for the most part thats still how tower pvp ends up, even with restrictions, but at least this way lowbies can participate. Otherwise you'd have teams of lowbies getting chain AoE nuked by level 200 NTs, and what fun would that be?

If an organization can't field the people it needs to defend its low level towers, or can't get support from their side to support their low level towers, then simply: they don't deserve to have low level towers.

Again... don't attack orgs you can't beat.

[Bionitrous]

Tower pvp is made to allow all ranges of levels to theoretically fight their SAME range of levels without fear of getting ganked by some high level punk who thinks its ok for their 200 char to beat down level 10s.

Then why would you attack an organization with high level characters if you don't have the firepower to win? The only reason I could see is to exploit the game mechanics that allow you to destroy someone else's property without them being able to do anything but stand by and watch you take what was theirs.

Go attack an organization that is stock full of level 10's if you are looking for a fair fight that you can be proud to have won. Otherwise enjoy your ill-gotten gains by attacking the towers of an org who has worked hard to achieve levels and power and plink down a tower on their land because you have been shielded by faulty game mechanics.

[_____________Losobal]

My primary concern with getting rid of pvp restrictions, or allowing any level of defender to defend their bases (the 200 fighting the group of level 10s, for example) is that it would end up in a status quo.

Even still, The way things are now there is a degree of status quo. Look at the clan and omni xp bonuses, they don't tend to change much. If you throw in the addition of any range of defender can defend, then I'd wager you'd see even less change and turnover than present. Effectively shutting down a portion of the game for those who aren't in a big uber guild.

The only real battles I would imagine we'd see would be near the upper range of fights, around the 150 level towers, where all the higher levels can probably participate in. There would be no incentive for lowbies to even try to participate because they'd quickly get spanked by the 1 or 2 high level defenders that pop into the area and rip the entire attacking force apart. I don't see a reason why anyone under 50 would even want to bother being a part of the notum wars and that would be pretty disappointing for those who don't have high level alts.

[Jynne]

Losobal, low level NW battles already are relatively twink-and-alt oriented; it will become moreso as time passes. The reason isn't just because twinks are stronger than "real newbie" characters.

It's that the vast majority of low level tower areas are in areas that aren't very accessible to the opposing factions. Try to find a bunch of level 30 characters whose level 30s are their mains, who can get to Greater Omni Forest in under an hour or without dying.

And people who play actively enough to expect to be able to hold a tower, will quickly level past 50 anyway. The only characters that will stay in the low-level pvp ranges are twinks and alts created specifically for that purpose.

My post here explains in more detail.

The end result is that no matter what level of character is "allowed" to fight directly, low level tower battles are in large part only possible in the first place, because of the intervention of higher level characters for transportation (at a minimum).

[Tiggy]

I totally agree with Aqua and all the others who say those are the actions of the lame.

Training Mobs is not only a banable offence but the tactics of the feeble minded. A lvl 199 player has no excuse and should know better. More to the point what on earth was a 199 doing hanging around a lvl 30 base in the first place its not like they could do anything in the way of defense except resorting to Griefing. Good for you for reporting it! Next time it happens don’t wait for wave 2 or 3 report them immediately and don’t bother to tell them either. Just let the arks sort it out and ban them. AO can do without that kind of behavior. I hope they apologized to you, if not then they can hardly pretend it wasn’t premeditated griefing.

As for “outside buffing” nothing wrong with this, how do you get your implants in without “outside buffing” the game was designed with this in mind. The limiting factor being your NCU and of cause the lvl restrictions on buffs considered too powerful for low levels to combat against. Get as many buffs as you can, the opposition can and do have them. As it is now impossible to buff outside your PvP range in a LC zone high lvl heals are no longer a problem. Nothing wrong with getting a TTS from a lvl 150+ agent if you are happy to sacrifice 47 NCU for the privilege.

You are quite right to say if they can’t defend it they should lose it. After all there is nothing to stop them taking it back 18 hours later assuming they have the people to do the attacking, if not then they should build a base that they can defend… perhaps a lvl 150+ one for example.

Saying “why shouldn’t he be able to do something” is total crap. If the enforcer was serious about defending that base there is nothing to stop him making a purpose built lvl 30 base defending twink who would have taken the attackers apart. It wouldn’t take more than a few days to lvl something like that up with all the rescores available to them at lvl 199. If they can’t be bothered to make a low lvl base defender then there is one more reason why they are going to lose their base. It’s their fault, no one else’s. More fool them if they think the best way to defend a base is by picking up a griefer tag rather than making an alt.

Tiggy

[Jaesic]

As if the top level large organizations don't own enough bases already? Please... anyone who is arguing that its right in any way shape or form for that level 199 to train mobs instead of bringing appropriate leveled characters out to defend the base is full of ****.

Twinking is allowed... outside buffs are allowed... it would take someone who has a 199 character all of about 5 hours to build and equip a character who could do some serious damage to most level 10's, 15's or even 20's. If you are worried about losing that level 15 base, then build a small army of twinks, log them off in your base and log them on as needed to defend it.

I will agree that its disappointing that the bases don't defend themselves better... but that does not excuse this sort of attitude... or the defense of it we've seen in this thread. Pathetic.

[Tiggy]

Originally posted by Jynne Again... don't attack orgs you can't beat.

They didnt

Originally posted by Bionitrous Then why would you attack an organization with high level characters if you don't have the firepower to win? The only reason I could see is to exploit the game mechanics that allow you to destroy someone else's property without them being able to do anything but stand by and watch you take what was theirs.

They attacked and won so it looks like they were the ones with the superior firepower not the so called uber guild.

Perhaps the alledged uber guild shouldn’t have been so stupid as to build a base they were unable to defend in a pathetic attempt to deny the ground to a more legitimate claimant.

They could after all have made some alts to protect it couldnt they? As opposed to relying on the fact that their guild has a copule of lvl 200's who are proberbly hardly ever on-line anyway. Move over grandad the new palyers are comming through

Originally posted by Jaesic but that does not excuse this sort of attitude... or the defense of it we've seen in this thread. Pathetic.

Well said

Tiggy

[Bionitrous]

OK, that's a fair concern. Here's more problems with Notum Wars:

Number one, they went the wrong way and tried to entice combat by restricting the number of LC areas. Big mistake. They enticed people to either give up or grief. They should have had enough land for every org who was interested in Notum Wars.

The enticement to PvP should have been 'trading up' lesser quality areas for better quality areas. As it stands now, it's an all or nothing situation. Either you own an area, or you don't. Having an area is great, not having an area sucks. If you don't have an area, you can't find one. It's Ultima Online's housing situation all over again and is resulting in the same type of griefing and heartache. 'Tower Ninjas' are the latest successors to house thieves.

People are afraid to engage in a battle for a better area for deathly fear of losing what they already have. What could have been a fun climb up and down a ladder is nothing more than a paranoia filled stress situation that isn't fun for most. If we lost our 150 area and knew we'd be back with a 100, it wouldn't be so bad. As it stands, we lose our 150 and half our guild goes OE on their weapons and it would be us placing the level 30 tower and creating twinks just to defend it against those shielded by the stupid rules from the rightful owners.

Your tower is currently in no way representative of your guild's power.

There is little difference in the land control areas. They're all basically the same. We suggested some small areas that could only hold a controller and 4 defense towers all the way up to huge areas. You'd fight over the more desireable areas. Right now the only thing that matters is the qlvl of your controller. I honestly don't understand why there is not more areas that hold just a controller and one turret. At least you'd see some PvP where the spirit was high and spirits weren't dashed when the controller went down.

In the case of this instance, the problem may have been that the lowbie quild with no high level contacts within their faction could not find a tower complex owned by an organization which was appropriate for them to fight. THAT is the problem with Notum Wars. The fact that the high level guild was relegated to a level 30 area? Well, I would hope to hell that they'd be rock solid in the game's allowing them to hold onto such land.

More problems. The more areas you control and the higher level areas you control, the more powerful your guild is. Well, that all sounds fine and dandy on the outside. But, all that does is cement the status quo. Instead of being in a more tenuous situation trying to balance ownership of the most valuable tracts of land on the planet, this guild becomes locked in, de facto, non-uprootedable, most powerful organization with no chance of ever being unseated. This leads to gravitation towards them from amongst the players who want nothing more than to be the 'most powerful', and the deal is done. Game over.

The NFL puts out a quality product because it attempts to enforce parity amongst its member organizations. The most successful teams get a tougher schedule and get last choice in the draft. AO is becoming as boring as Major League Baseball with the Yankees winning every single year. Eventually you just stop watching because it doesn't matter anymore. Something needs to be done to address the lack of parity in Notum Wars in particular and AO in general.

Just like a well run club can overcome the enforced parity in the NFL, I would expect a well run guild to eventually rise to the top in AO. As it stands now, there is no chance.

I would expect Notum Wars to go something like this: Our level 10 guys find a tract of land and research who owns it. If they find the organization controlling it to be within their 'takeable' range they decide to attack. If they have honor, they will declare their intentions. Perhaps even offer a trade down to their less desireable land without blood shed. They've just improved themselves. They might then see a level 20 tract of land and notice it's the property of a very powerful guild. If they are sane, they'll bypass that one and look elsewhere. Meanwhile word of their success has spread and they are gaining new members. That's nice, they're getting stronger. However, these people all need to feed. The organization advantages are diluted a bit as they need to cover more people. Now, they definately best find a level 20 area to get their per-capita advantages back to where they were before they expanded. They research and find a spot where another up-and-comer guild has set up shop and realize this should be a fair fight. Perhaps they enlist some paid help and take the land. The 'loser' should not be s.o.l. at this point, but simply relegated to a level 10 tract of land (one probably just became available ). Now our heros have both a larger membership and have gotten their per-capita advantages back to where they were when they first claimed land.

Notum Wars is just broke right now. The rich get richer and the poor pee on each other in the sewers. Everybody's scared to lose their territory and tower griefers are having a field day. Big orgs who lose their high-level land are left with their hands in their pockets and are prevented from even owning low-level land to start over again.

It's just all wrong.

[Bionitrous]

Originally posted by Jaesic
As if the top level large organizations don't own enough bases already? Please... anyone who is arguing that its right in any way shape or form for that level 199 to train mobs instead of bringing appropriate leveled characters out to defend the base is full of ****.

Twinking is allowed... outside buffs are allowed... it would take someone who has a 199 character all of about 5 hours to build and equip a character who could do some serious damage to most level 10's, 15's or even 20's. If you are worried about losing that level 15 base, then build a small army of twinks, log them off in your base and log them on as needed to defend it.

I will agree that its disappointing that the bases don't defend themselves better... but that does not excuse this sort of attitude... or the defense of it we've seen in this thread. Pathetic.

That I agree with as well. Under the current rules it IS a shame that a guild with a level 199 enforcer in it, doesn't have a full squadron of twinked out alts to defend this tower. I know I've got alts parked at towers at all level ranges. This is the only way that my time in game and my guild's help with these characters can manifest itself when lowbies come attacking. It's at least in some small way representative of those guys having 'friends in high places'.

I just wish it didn't have to be this way. This isn't how a group of level 10's should fight a group of level 200's (by proxy through alts). But, at least it works to a degree.

[_____________Losobal]

Good points. Heh, tho to the person who started this topic I apologize for derailing it from the initial issue.

Training mobs to drop onto low level attackers should still be considered illegal. I think its poor sportsmanship (yes, I know this is supposed to be 'war' and alls fair in love in war, yada yada yada) but an org/side should be able to count on its org/side to field the necessary defenders when they call for them. If volunteers aren't showing up, that org/side should probably try and figure out why they don't get support.

I won't get into the 'attacking a tower when defenders are offline' issue, as that was addressed in another thread.

[____________Fakonamo]

Nice attitudes by alot of posters "Its ok to grief and cheat of you cant win any other way". Seems to just be attempts to justify cheating to me. Fact is that if you cannot defend your base by legitemate means, you are too pathetic to keep it.

I think its perfectly alright that a lvl 199 would have to sit back and watch his/her towers be wiped out. The level ranges of land control areas are there so low levels can fight low levels and the like. Low lvl areas aren't meant to be defended by high lvls. If you dont have any low levels that can defend dont build a low lvl base. Its the same as building a high lvl base you cannot defend. If you cant defend it on your own merits you deserve to loose it.

I spoke to an ARK about this and was told that it is an offense even in PvP areas.

[Illith]

Originally posted by Jynne
Again... don't attack orgs you can't beat.

Don't build towers you can't defend !!!

[__________BrutalThug]

Originally posted by Bionitrous


Then why would you attack an organization with high level characters if you don't have the firepower to win? The only reason I could see is to exploit the game mechanics that allow you to destroy someone else's property without them being able to do anything but stand by and watch you take what was theirs.

Unable to defend is the defending orgs own fault. the mechanics of NW is pretty obvious... its pvp range driven. Dont scare away the newcomers to AO or pvp..

If you guys want a base you can defend go get one you can..

not that hard to understand is it ?

[Jynne]

Originally posted by FakoNamo
I spoke to an ARK about this and was told that it is an offense even in PvP areas.

I would not rely on that, unless it comes directly from FC customer support it is not officially policy. Did the ARK check with a GM?

As far as I remember that would be a reversal of what customer service said about training mobs in Camelot, and I hadn't heard of that being reversed.

BrutalThug: Yes, NW is pvp-range driven. That's exactly why newcomers to AO won't have a chance to participate - their lowbies are their mains, and they keep leveling. One day they build a tower, two days later they're too high level to keep it.

In the mean time, high level people can twink the heck out of an alt and just park them at level 40, say. So when it comes time to fight a level 40 tower battle, it will be fought mostly by the level 40 alts of level 200 mains. The real level 40s who might have built that base, are level 55 now and aren't allowed to defend it.