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Thread: Nerf GA Nerf Fixer Nerf Manex

  1. #41
    You know all those nerf post about everything those days reminds me of one song that was posted on fixer forums (before 2nd forum wipe i think). Well its not reall song, only some words have been changed and to be honest i dont reming it all but it goes something like this:

    Everybody if nerfing somebody.
    Everyone want to nerf you,
    no one want to get nerfed by you.



    And as somebody else said:
    When you get owned in pvp you have 2 things that you can do.
    §1 you can suck it up and try to improve yourself
    §2 you can go to forums and cry for nerfing somebody (and as bonus get some buffs for your char to)

    And it looks that those days more and more people going §2 way

    Some might ask: So whats your point?
    Well there is no real point other that: The people wich you want to nerf today, will probably want to nerf you tommorow.

    And if devs listen to all nerf cries then this nerfing will go forever in neverending cycle. Because even if this game had only 1 class then some ppl will cry about others having higher level or better connection.
    Cyrus "Makarov" Scola (so called creator of never released Kamikazebots)

    Kids= 30sec pleasure +18years of suffering.
    Al Bundy

    BY WAFFEN:
    The entire free-trade community from North, Central and South America, along with the EU and the rest of Europe, Russia, the former Soviet States, India, Communist China and the rest of Asia along with industrialized Africa (mainly S. Africa) all know what slag is, and use that term regularly.
    So just what culture is being offended by the term "slag"?

  2. #42
    <<Give me 500M creds and I'll make an engy(or anny other class for that matter) that'll whoop ANNY class in pvp. >>


    LOL. LOL. LOL. LOL. LOL.

    *gasps for air*

    LOL. LOL. LOL. LOL. LOL.
    Dalmatia - 207 Eng Board Member of The Vigil
    Rostislav - 180 Doc
    And more alts than I'd care to admit to
    1700 total dings and counting

  3. #43
    Originally posted by Dalmatia
    <<Give me 500M creds and I'll make an engy(or anny other class for that matter) that'll whoop ANNY class in pvp. >>


    LOL. LOL. LOL. LOL. LOL.

    *gasps for air*

    LOL. LOL. LOL. LOL. LOL.
    my thoughts exactly. After i read that i couldn't continue reading the thread,

  4. #44
    I think the point should just be not to nerf the class that's fixed (and Fixers are doing OK right now), but help the classes that needs. I agree with the oringial poster in one thing: MAs got gimped bad, and deserve love.

    As a Fixer and a vocal one, I can tell you must of us have the following wish list:

    -GA drop a little more often so maybe the price drops

    -NCU buffs refresh like they're supposed to. (14.8 yay!)

    -People quit screaming nerf.

    -Funcom think of a better strategy then rock/paper/scissors. Give everyone a fair changce against anyone, so long as you have skill.
    General Hershel "Kasimir" Jurik

    President of Division 9 R.S.G.E

    Fixer
    RK-1

    Braumiester of the Pagan Bartenders, wielder of dual SSo8s

    Stealer of hearts, creds, and anything not nailed down!

  5. #45
    What's really funny is how people think the Manex is SO much better than most other guns.

    At 1100 atk, 800 burst and 1000 init over 300s:

    Exquisite Mausser Chemical Streamer
    Estimated Damage Range: 4-1500 (2812)

    In 300s with a cycle speed of 2.08s, (1.08s Attack, 1s Recharge) you would have attacked 142 times. Total damage in 300s would be around 118428 points.

    Special attack damage in 300s would be around 85728 points, bringing total damage to around 204156 points



    Manex Catastrophe December
    Estimated Damage Range: 4-2812 (3188)

    In 300s with a cycle speed of 2.58s, (1.58s Attack, 1s Recharge) you would have attacked 117 times. Total damage in 300s would be around 173043 points.

    Special attack damage in 300s would be around 21120 points, bringing total damage to around 194163 points.




    Thats right, even at high attack and init values, MCS > Manex. But the sheep don't see big numbers floating up. The difference is of course Burst, as normal dmg on Manex is much greater. I laugh every time I see some foolish level 50 trader or fixer wielding a manex.

    John

  6. #46
    Originally posted by Kasimir
    ...
    -Funcom think of a better strategy then rock/paper/scissors. Give everyone a fair changce against anyone, so long as you have skill.
    That last one is not possible. There are too many professions with too many diverse playstyles to balance them against each other. And maintain PvM balance. Easiest proof of that, let's look at the Engineers. Engineers, quite frankly, need substantial help in PvP. They lack offensive power outside of their bots. And their bots are too easy to neutralize.

    But, if Funcom gave them offensive power outside of their bots we'd be faced with the Engineer in PvM. A profession with slayerdroids that do quite well without the engineer interfering with them (provided there isn't a wall between them and the target), ways to protect both themselves and their bots (To the engis about to say something, I know your reflect shields are weak in comparison to Soldiers. My reflect shield is in a bracelet that clashes with my armor) and eventually to slayerdroid transference joining their bots in on the fun. Give that engineer more offensive power outside their bots and there's a problem with PvM balance.

    The professions can't be balanced against each other individually without leading to an imbalance elsewhere that also ends in a nerf. So the best thing I can see is to make sure every profession can contribute to team/org PvP and drop kick the arena combat mentality completely.
    History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris

    The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown

    Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio

  7. #47

    Wink

    Originally posted by JohnMclain
    What's really funny is how people think the Manex is SO much better than most other guns.

    At 1100 atk, 800 burst and 1000 init over 300s:

    Exquisite Mausser Chemical Streamer
    Estimated Damage Range: 4-1500 (2812)

    In 300s with a cycle speed of 2.08s, (1.08s Attack, 1s Recharge) you would have attacked 142 times. Total damage in 300s would be around 118428 points.

    Special attack damage in 300s would be around 85728 points, bringing total damage to around 204156 points



    Manex Catastrophe December
    Estimated Damage Range: 4-2812 (3188)

    In 300s with a cycle speed of 2.58s, (1.58s Attack, 1s Recharge) you would have attacked 117 times. Total damage in 300s would be around 173043 points.

    Special attack damage in 300s would be around 21120 points, bringing total damage to around 194163 points.




    Thats right, even at high attack and init values, MCS > Manex. But the sheep don't see big numbers floating up. The difference is of course Burst, as normal dmg on Manex is much greater. I laugh every time I see some foolish level 50 trader or fixer wielding a manex.

    John
    All you ignorant ****s asking for manex to be nerfed need to read this, then read it again, then make it your homepage so you can read it again every day.

    Right now with 1k+ init, I really really struggle to choose which I prefer the most out of the two weapons.
    On full agg then it will be the manex, but the second I come off full agg then that little MCS gets slapped on straight away.

    Go away, educate yourselves, then come back and say sorry, thanks.

  8. #48
    Originally posted by Kuroshio


    That last one is not possible. There are too many professions with too many diverse playstyles to balance them against each other. And maintain PvM balance. Easiest proof of that, let's look at the Engineers. Engineers, quite frankly, need substantial help in PvP. They lack offensive power outside of their bots. And their bots are too easy to neutralize....
    I agree with this more or less 100%. My wish is more a pipe dream. However..if they do rock/paper/scissors across the board..pvp becomes nothing more challenging then tabbing until you find the paper to your scissors, then cut them to ribbons.
    General Hershel "Kasimir" Jurik

    President of Division 9 R.S.G.E

    Fixer
    RK-1

    Braumiester of the Pagan Bartenders, wielder of dual SSo8s

    Stealer of hearts, creds, and anything not nailed down!

  9. #49
    Originally posted by Tium


    All you ignorant ****s asking for manex to be nerfed need to read this, then read it again, then make it your homepage so you can read it again every day.

    Right now with 1k+ init, I really really struggle to choose which I prefer the most out of the two weapons.
    On full agg then it will be the manex, but the second I come off full agg then that little MCS gets slapped on straight away.

    Go away, educate yourselves, then come back and say sorry, thanks.
    And the funny thing is that the word on the grapewine is that the Manex will be nerfed anyway.

    How stupid of FC to nerf something that is really no good at all!
    How they must be slapping their heads, and thinking how stupid they were for nerfing the wrong weapon! But then again they will probably think that it doesn't matter anyway, seeing as it's really a crap weapon that the Fixers don't like anyhow.

    I had 2k HP (roughly half of what I have) stripped away in one burst by a Manex once, and I do believe that it took less than 6 further shots to finish me off. I would have run away of course, but I was of course rooted, but I do believe that my BBI Faithful hit him with about 300 Fling, which totally restored my faith in my trusty ol' adv guns. The other 12 normal shots I got off in the brief encounter were all misses of course...
    Reverend Revelator Ramagano, Proud Something of Alpha Omega

    Alpha Omega: Fighting For Your Future, Today

    No, I'm not back.

    How embarrassing, after all these years it turns out I CAN'T spell **ncom with an F and a U, talk about egg on my face eh?

  10. #50
    Originally posted by Tium

    Go away, educate yourselves, then come back and say sorry, thanks.
    Oh! I think I forgot to say sorry! Yes, I didn't say sorry at all, did I?
    Nope, reread my post, and there is not even a trace of sorryness.

    Suck on it GA boy! If the Manex wasn't uber nobody would call a nerf, it's really that simple.

    I have a ton of adv specific pistols at my disposal, but I have never, ever heard anyone say that they should be nerfed. And that's because everyone knows that it makes no sense to nerf something that came already pre-nerfed in the box.
    Reverend Revelator Ramagano, Proud Something of Alpha Omega

    Alpha Omega: Fighting For Your Future, Today

    No, I'm not back.

    How embarrassing, after all these years it turns out I CAN'T spell **ncom with an F and a U, talk about egg on my face eh?

  11. #51

    300s?!

    Originally posted by JohnMclain
    What's really funny is how people think the Manex is SO much better than most other guns.

    At 1100 atk, 800 burst and 1000 init over 300s:
    <snip>
    John
    Seriously though how many fights last 300s? The vast majority in PvM in a good team last about 10 seconds or less. Let's say 15 seconds to give benefit of the doubt.

    Manex = 11529
    MCS = 9396

    The Manex leads by a clear margin. Now for boss fights it is a different story.

    --
    Rahmorak

  12. #52
    Manex is "flavor of the month" right now, but really isn't much better than existing weapons. It is only slightly better than a MCS, and one could argue that the projectile damage vs. chemical damage eats into most (if not all) of that margin.

    Just because a weapon is 1-750 does not make it good.

    OMG! I found a weapon that is 1-950(500)!!!

    Manex has very long Burst recycles, projectile damage, and is slow. It cannot be crit scoped (aisde from the 1% TIM HUD) and doesn't have very impressive range.

    Is it a good weapon? Yep. Is it uber? Not really.

    -Jayde

  13. #53
    Originally posted by Jayde
    Manex is "flavor of the month" right now, but really isn't much better than existing weapons. It is only slightly better than a MCS, and one could argue that the projectile damage vs. chemical damage eats into most (if not all) of that margin.

    Just because a weapon is 1-750 does not make it good.

    OMG! I found a weapon that is 1-950(500)!!!

    Manex has very long Burst recycles, projectile damage, and is slow. It cannot be crit scoped (aisde from the 1% TIM HUD) and doesn't have very impressive range.

    Is it a good weapon? Yep. Is it uber? Not really.

    -Jayde

    /me could, as usual, hug Jayde. Thank you.
    General Hershel "Kasimir" Jurik

    President of Division 9 R.S.G.E

    Fixer
    RK-1

    Braumiester of the Pagan Bartenders, wielder of dual SSo8s

    Stealer of hearts, creds, and anything not nailed down!

  14. #54
    Originally posted by Jayde
    Manex is "flavor of the month" right now, but really isn't much better than existing weapons. It is only slightly better than a MCS, and one could argue that the projectile damage vs. chemical damage eats into most (if not all) of that margin.

    Just because a weapon is 1-750 does not make it good.

    OMG! I found a weapon that is 1-950(500)!!!

    Manex has very long Burst recycles, projectile damage, and is slow. It cannot be crit scoped (aisde from the 1% TIM HUD) and doesn't have very impressive range.

    Is it a good weapon? Yep. Is it uber? Not really.

    -Jayde
    Ack! Refuted by an actual expert. how frightfully embarrassing!
    Consider all my previous statements considering the Manex for retracted, null and void.

    Still not saying sorry though...
    Reverend Revelator Ramagano, Proud Something of Alpha Omega

    Alpha Omega: Fighting For Your Future, Today

    No, I'm not back.

    How embarrassing, after all these years it turns out I CAN'T spell **ncom with an F and a U, talk about egg on my face eh?

  15. #55
    Originally posted by Kasimir



    /me could, as usual, hug Jayde. Thank you.
    well, I will

    *HUGS Jayde*



    lilnymph
    Lilnymph - Clan Fixer - RK1
    lilnymph wrote on November 21st, 2003 08:01:01:
    You may take our postcount threads, but you will never take our FREEDOM!!!!!
    Originally posted by Cz
    The post count is mine! All mine! Mwahahahah!

    40.476190476190474% of me is a huge nerd! How about you?
    Style over Substance

  16. #56
    First of all Manex and MCS are very similar in damage over time, the problem is that fights do not last very long between us and certain proffesions, keep in mind the same happens to us against others, eather way it isnt very enjoyable but FC in their quests to make fights last longer failed not to mention increased recycles on specials, lol.
    With most fights starting with specials Manex will hurt you for 1,5-2k, usually that is the case, after it will vary, but its speed is not enough to be a type of a terror weapon. You still have some time to react.
    If fights lasted longer you would see that the MCS does similar amount of damage over time as its specials recycle about 10 times faster.
    Now here is the important thing about nerfs, Nothing should be nerfed the same for PvP and PvM, if FC wishes to nerf weapons and abilities it should not be done in both aspects of the game as it usually seriously affects peoples gameplay and the time they have put in building a char according to rules presented.
    Anyhow, that sounds like a legal disclaimer

    O and.....

    " I would have run away of course, but I was of course rooted, but I do believe that my BBI Faithful hit him with about 300 Fling, which totally restored my faith in my trusty ol' adv guns. The other 12 normal shots I got off in the brief encounter were all misses of course..."

    I got a chuckle from your despair , sorry, but your absolutelly right its lousy, I have a lvl 70 advy myself and tried pistols, but try swords, Advys with swords realy hurt.
    Alantria 203 Fixer Squad commander/Recruiter of Eternal Fury

  17. #57
    JohnMclain, try running your simulation against 4500 AC. The real advantage that slower, more damaging weapons have is that they do their damage in bigger chunks, getting more damage past the opponents AC.
    Isisnorfret RK1 - Main

  18. #58
    Also run your sim at full aggro, I think both of those weapons should be 1/1 at full agg and 1k init.
    Isisnorfret RK1 - Main

  19. #59
    Originally posted by Jayde
    Manex is "flavor of the month" right now, but really isn't much better than existing weapons. It is only slightly better than a MCS, and one could argue that the projectile damage vs. chemical damage eats into most (if not all) of that margin.

    Just because a weapon is 1-750 does not make it good.

    OMG! I found a weapon that is 1-950(500)!!!

    Manex has very long Burst recycles, projectile damage, and is slow. It cannot be crit scoped (aisde from the 1% TIM HUD) and doesn't have very impressive range.

    Is it a good weapon? Yep. Is it uber? Not really.

    -Jayde
    I like the Manex for the disadvantages given when I consider it for my crat alt. With the slow speed, it will allow my crat's bot more time to damage the mob and hopefully hold the mobs aggro for when I do fire. The higher damage when it does fire makes me feel that my crat bot isn't looking over his shoulder thinking "Okay, now how about doing something that would actually help?".
    History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris

    The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown

    Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio

  20. #60

    Re: just one question?

    Originally posted by Animosity


    Compair this to real life, do you cry nerf on those who have faster cars, nicer spouces, better lawnmowers, skiis, bank accounts, and tv's. Nope, its called suck it up, work harder, and stop being envious of what others have. If you dont want to deal with envy, learn contentment, or engage the rules fully. There is nothing stopping you from having a fixer with a nasty manex. Enjoy the power! A little bit of history, every few months there is a new profession or item that becomes unbalanced, but it is only unbalanced compaired to the previous gameplay. Once people get used to it then you will find the market full of overpriced items of the overpowered type being bought by overpowered professions. I congradulate your resolve going against the flow, but next patch when its soldures with slingshots that are bursting for 1k at lvl 20, make a sold, get your slingshot and go find something big to kill. Its all part of the game. Chill, enjoy the ride, if you never do pvp, the issue of twinks, overpowered and pour IP allocation become less of an issue.

    Ani.
    just a quick point to make... as I said before your rude "suck it up" reply, I am a fixer who uses a nasty manex. I look at my damage output and say "woah, that is just silly". Do I like doing loads of damage? sure. Do I think the gun is well balanced? No. And i think this is a problem with more than just the manex. Instead of making existing weapons worthwhile, there is always one super uber best weapon, killing all chance of variety in the game. I'd rather use a keran's grinner, but I don't really have a choice (would you like to beat that baddie with a rock or a thermonuclear missile? You can throw 2 rocks a minute, or 1 missile every 10 minutes... the choice is pretty clear)

    On the other hand, if Jayde is truly saying from an unbiased view that the gun isn't that bad, then I'll probably side with him. The only thing that doesn't seem taken into account is that with the way ACs are calculated, Slow hard hitting weapons are inherently better than fast weapons.
    I.e. a weapon that does 100-200 damage every second is not as good as one that does 200-400 every 2 seconds.

    -D
    Last edited by Dropcid; Jan 9th, 2003 at 15:41:16.
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