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Thread: Expoit in teaming

  1. #21
    Originally posted by Detonate


    What was high level person like you doing at this low level tower raid.

    EXPLOITER! EXPLOITER! EXPLOITER!
    I was there as a level 70 character.

    MORON! MORON! MORON! Pthhhhbbbbbt!

    I know you're smarter than this.
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
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    Visit the Roses and check out the shops in our City, NE of ICC at 4500x1500 in Andromeda!

    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  2. #22
    You said they were attacking towers correct? Then that's why they were teamed.

    When I go to Camelot raids, I team with level 150 so that I can attack level 200 clanners that rush the box room and contribute to my team.

    That is not an exploit, I don't care what you say.

    That was INTENTIONALLY coded in there.
    Veteran Homer "Detonate" McDuff - My Equipment
    -= First Order =-

    First Order is one of the largest and most powerful Omni-Tek Departments located on Rubi-Ka 1. If you are a dedicated Omni-Tek employee looking for superior opportunities within the company, check out http://www.firstorder.net/ and apply for a position today!
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  3. #23
    I didn't want this post to become an issue that two people were argueing about, but....

    They were "attacking the towers". Accually that was what they were doing about 1 hour before. They hadn't touched the towers in quite a while and it turned out to be a big PvP arena. The towers we were protecting were QL 50 - 75 and we had players up around level 200 present helping protect the area.

    As far as I know, he was not attackable by the higher level player, but I'm not sure. If this is the case, he must have been teamed with lower level characters, meaning I should have been able to attack him according to Detonate. I was not. In any case, I just hope this will be settled in a future patch. (Yeah, I'm still saying it is an exploit.)

    Nevac

  4. #24
    Detonate: Please read the following before your next post in this thread. I am not going to repeat myself.

    1. IF Funcom states something is unintended, THEN it is. Funcom makes the rules in AO, not you or any other player.
    2. Funcom defines making use of unintended game mechanics to gain any advantage IS an exploit. If you didn't already know this, consider yourself informed as of now.
    3. Funcom HAVE stated that teaming with players outside your PvP range to make yourself unattackable by players in your normal PvP range, IS unintended (see Jynne's post with link to thread).
    4. Hence, teaming with players to make yourself unattackable by players in your normal PvP range during tower attacks BLOODY WELL IS an exploit!

    If you still insist on continued denial of facts and of official statements by Funcom, which Jynne was kind enough to refer to, you are either:

    a) too thick to understand the simple logic of Jynne's or my posts, or
    b) too immature and stubborn to admit that you are wrong, or
    c) just a troll that can be safely /ignored.

    BTW, to admit an obvious mistake is more mature than denying it =) I didn't want to make a personal flame, but you really ticked me off by your posts in this thread. :/
    Last edited by Bothead; Jan 7th, 2003 at 13:30:21.
    Bret 'Bothead' Bannister
    Member of Rising Phoenix

  5. #25
    I'm not responding to any specific post, here, but rather trying to sum up the problem.

    First of all, a most basic rule that so many seem to not understand: In a team, everybody in the team has the exact PvP range of the highest level player that is in the same zone (players in teams fragmented between zones take on the level range of the highest level player in their team in their zone).

    This concept is part of the "team as a whole" concept that FC seemed to have started with when they coded in teaming with PvP. Everybody in the team will be able to fight the same enemies, and used to be able to retaliate against anybody who was in a fight with a team member or team member's pet, even if the retaliation takes place to or from a 75% zone.

    For example, a 30 and a 60 teamed would be able to fight people in the level 60's range, and the 30 wouldn't worry about anybody else because he was part of the team. I believe the coders thought about it this way in creation of the code. Not exploit, just the idea of teammates being able to help each other.

    This seems to be causing some problems in NW, where the 30 and 60 attacking, say, a level 50 tower and the only defenders are level 37 (making it impossible for them to defend). There's also the team high, leave-team-and-attack-unexpectedly tactic that can get annoying.

    One possible fix to this would be to get rid of any level range change. The 30 would have a regular level 30 range, and the 60 would have a level regular 60 range. This would create some problems --

    Sub-150's would always be locked in their set level range with no hope ever of fighting anybody else or helping 150+ fight 200's.

    The team as a whole idea would be gone, as the only reason to team would be for team heals.

    Another, possibly better fix would be to have all teammates keep their own level range, as well as inheriting the level range of the highest level player in the team. This would make lower levels in team able to be attacked by anybody that could normally attack them, as well as being able to engage in combat with higher levels.

    BUT! This detracts from the team-as-a-whole idea again, because no longer can everybody in the team help each other. There is less organization this way, where a lowbie can be under attack from lowbies and no help can be given from the team. Of course, you could make it so everybody in the team inherits everybody else's level range, but that's just not allowable (level 1 teams with level 200, level 200 can attack level 1's -- LOL -- of course impossible but I need to mention every solution =P)

    The sensible solution seems to be that when in team, your level range is not -replaced- with the highest level in team's range, but rather his is added on to yours. It's a needed drawback for the advantage of being able to attack higher level players unexpectably. It would be a big adjustment, but it seems the only path.

    Now, to clear up some obvious confusion. A level 50 teamed with a 200 attacking lowbie towers? No, that's not how it works. The 50 wouldn't be able to. He can only be teamed with people near the tower's level range in order to attack the towers (as in the 72 and 94 example).

    Right now, I believe it's almost fair. The problem only applies to people who don't have players online that are at both ends on the level ranges of the towers in their base.
    -Stexer 'n Sterex

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  6. #26
    Thanks Stexer, it's exactly what I have been saying all along.

    And Smacdevil, Suck it!
    Veteran Homer "Detonate" McDuff - My Equipment
    -= First Order =-

    First Order is one of the largest and most powerful Omni-Tek Departments located on Rubi-Ka 1. If you are a dedicated Omni-Tek employee looking for superior opportunities within the company, check out http://www.firstorder.net/ and apply for a position today!
    First Order is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate based on Breed, Level, or Profession.


    WHY MMORPG'S SUCK!

  7. #27
    Exactly, Stexer, and this problem is not possible to overcome by guilds without higher lvl main chars or allies who would rush to help at an attack on their base. Funcom's intention is not for all guilds to require high lvl friends way out of their own PvP range, just to be able to defend their own base control area. This is a problem, and has to be solved by Funcom, otherwise only the large guilds with good spread in members levels will prevail in NW - which is not intended, as Cz said.
    Bret 'Bothead' Bannister
    Member of Rising Phoenix

  8. #28
    This seems to be causing some problems in NW, where the 30 and 60 attacking, say, a level 50 tower and the only defenders are level 37 (making it impossible for them to defend). There's also the team high, leave-team-and-attack-unexpectedly tactic that can get annoying.
    Also just want to point out, that while everyone says OMG, the level 30 it totally exploiting! is just not so.

    There is no difference between a team of 5 level 30 and 1 level 60. Or a team of 6 level 60's. They would all still be able to attack the towers, and the level 37 defenders will STILL not be able to do anything about it.
    Veteran Homer "Detonate" McDuff - My Equipment
    -= First Order =-

    First Order is one of the largest and most powerful Omni-Tek Departments located on Rubi-Ka 1. If you are a dedicated Omni-Tek employee looking for superior opportunities within the company, check out http://www.firstorder.net/ and apply for a position today!
    First Order is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate based on Breed, Level, or Profession.


    WHY MMORPG'S SUCK!

  9. #29
    Originally posted by Detonate
    Thanks Stexer, it's exactly what I have been saying all along.

    And Smacdevil, Suck it!
    ROFL Detonate, it's a sheer pleasure to read your funny posts, they are so well formulated and eh.. convincive of a brilliant mind at work. BTW, you just proved my point
    Bret 'Bothead' Bannister
    Member of Rising Phoenix

  10. #30
    Originally posted by Smacdevil
    Exactly, Stexer, and this problem is not possible to overcome by guilds without higher lvl main chars or allies who would rush to help at an attack on their base.
    Are you retarded? Sorry, that wasn't meant as a flame, but your post just ticked me the wrong way.

    What does High Level players have to do with ANYTHING! They can't do anything in a low level battle, with the obvious exception of buffing healing in the surrounding 75% zones which is a completely different topic for discussion!

    In a level 50 tower battle, and level 200 can do nothing inside the PVP zone. If he groups with a bunch of level 60's, the level 60's can NOT, I repeat NOT, attack the towers, which is their sole purpose for being there.
    Veteran Homer "Detonate" McDuff - My Equipment
    -= First Order =-

    First Order is one of the largest and most powerful Omni-Tek Departments located on Rubi-Ka 1. If you are a dedicated Omni-Tek employee looking for superior opportunities within the company, check out http://www.firstorder.net/ and apply for a position today!
    First Order is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate based on Breed, Level, or Profession.


    WHY MMORPG'S SUCK!

  11. #31
    hello - yes they can. They can prevent lower lvl players from being attacked by other ppl in their normal PvP range, while still being able to hack and slash away at the towers. Have you not read a single argument in the above posts? Sorry, I will stop repeating myself again
    Bret 'Bothead' Bannister
    Member of Rising Phoenix

  12. #32
    Originally posted by Jynne
    But every single character in Babylegion (correct me if I'm wrong, Legionnaires) is the alt of someone whose main is in the 150+ only Legion guild. They had people from level 25 to level 140 there, from what I saw; they certainly could have had enough level 200s to make CC kick in, if they wanted to. But two of the three the bases they attacked, as far as I am aware, belonged to guilds who were mostly level 120 or lower.
    a little off topic we had no 150+ till we saw lvl 150+ clanners arrive, the funny thing was, i saw 175+ healing and buffing 140- under while they were in a fight in the 25% area isn't that supposed to be .. not possible? :/
    // wildwal - the sexiest adv evar - now with nr!
    // legion

  13. #33
    Let me make this really simple for your simple mind....

    Take all level consideration out, so your brain does not fry from having to do math.

    Person A (Attacker) wants to pick up a rock (Tower) a few feet in front of him. Person B (Defender) wants to stop Person A from taking that rock (Tower).

    Between the Rock (Tower), and Person B (Attacker) that wants the rock (Tower) is a Wall (A level 200 player teamed with Person B)

    Person A (Defender) can not beat the crap out of Person B (Attacker), NOR is Person B (Attacker) able to take the rock (Tower), untill the wall (A level 200 teamed with Person B) is removed.

    Thus forming a stalemate until the Wall (level 200 is removed), THUS questioning why Person B would have thrown up a wall in front of hisself anyway.


    The simple point is, if I'm going on a raid to kill a tower, to take over some land. Why the hell would I even want a level 200 person with me? They only PREVENT me from taking the tower. And if I did for some strange reason bring a level 200 with me, why in gods name would a defender care, since the "attacker" wouldn't even be able to attack.

    You are an idiot man... Plain and simple.
    Veteran Homer "Detonate" McDuff - My Equipment
    -= First Order =-

    First Order is one of the largest and most powerful Omni-Tek Departments located on Rubi-Ka 1. If you are a dedicated Omni-Tek employee looking for superior opportunities within the company, check out http://www.firstorder.net/ and apply for a position today!
    First Order is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate based on Breed, Level, or Profession.


    WHY MMORPG'S SUCK!

  14. #34
    Originally posted by Smacdevil
    They can prevent lower lvl players from being attacked by other ppl in their normal PvP range, while still being able to hack and slash away at the towers.
    NO THEY CAN'T!!!!


    A level 50 teamed with a level 200 can NOT attack a level 50 base.

    A level 30 teamed with a level 60 COULD attack a level 50 base, but a Level 50 defender COULD attack the level 30. I hardly consider that high level teaming exploit.

    If you are defending a level 50 base, you damn well better have level 50 defenders. If you are bringing a bunch of level 30ish people to defend, what are you going to do when a team of level 60 show up?
    Veteran Homer "Detonate" McDuff - My Equipment
    -= First Order =-

    First Order is one of the largest and most powerful Omni-Tek Departments located on Rubi-Ka 1. If you are a dedicated Omni-Tek employee looking for superior opportunities within the company, check out http://www.firstorder.net/ and apply for a position today!
    First Order is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate based on Breed, Level, or Profession.


    WHY MMORPG'S SUCK!

  15. #35
    Originally posted by Wal


    a little off topic we had no 150+ till we saw lvl 150+ clanners arrive, the funny thing was, i saw 175+ healing and buffing 140- under while they were in a fight in the 25% area isn't that supposed to be .. not possible? :/
    If they team with the lowbies, the low level characters take on the high level characters PvP range (per Stexer's post) and they can buff and heal and such in the pvp zone. As an aside, I was only using that fight as an example, because it was fresh in my mind. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples out there.

    The main thing that bothers me about the team pvp range crap is that if one side or the other starts arranging teams to protect people from level ranges they "should" be attackable by, it shifts how battles are fought into math problems about pvp ranges, which is not only an exploit (as it goes against the intent of the designers for low level guilds - this is fact), but it is also quite lame purely as a matter of gameplay (this last part, is my opinion).
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
    The Doctor Guide to: Notum Wars Martial Arts Perks! Nano Controller Units
    The General Guide to: Auto-Combat General Perks

    Visit the Roses and check out the shops in our City, NE of ICC at 4500x1500 in Andromeda!

    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  16. #36
    The problem here is that you think this is done intentionally in order to protect people.

    A level 50 teamed with a level 200 is obviously doing it so that he can not be attacked. But the fact that he can't attack the level 50 base he is there to destroy makes this tactic useless.

    A level 30 teamed with a level 60 is not doing this to be unattackable by level 30's, he's doing it to be part of a stronger team, and be more effective in smushing level 50 towers. If I'm a level 30 enforcer, and I want to smash a level 50 base, and a level 60 doctor sends me a team invite, then WOO HOO. I now have a healer, and we can both effectively smash the towers. And are both still open to PVP by what should be level 50ish defenders. As I said before if the defenders are level 30 it's nobody fault, no exploit was commited.
    Veteran Homer "Detonate" McDuff - My Equipment
    -= First Order =-

    First Order is one of the largest and most powerful Omni-Tek Departments located on Rubi-Ka 1. If you are a dedicated Omni-Tek employee looking for superior opportunities within the company, check out http://www.firstorder.net/ and apply for a position today!
    First Order is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate based on Breed, Level, or Profession.


    WHY MMORPG'S SUCK!

  17. #37
    But there's no way to tell what the intent of the people doing the teaming is, Detonate. Just like with Beacon Warp in Camelot... you can't tell if an engineer is warping people to get around the playfield limits, or if they are just warping someone in for convenience when the dungeon's not full. But it doesn't matter which: warping in Camelot castle, no matter what circumstances surround it, is considered an exploit.

    I don't blame the innocent for teaming up. I don't really even blame those who do it on purpose to gain some sort of tactical advantages for using it, even though it's kinda lame. I do however blame Funcom for two things - first, being implementing this and similar systems without adequate testing; and second, failing to fix it in an even remotely timely manner once the problems start to surface on Live.

    Funcom set this up dumbly, given their stated intentions, because they essentially have artificially created a set of potential exploits out of teaming with even slightly higher level people. Yes, it is dumb. No it probably is not intentional in many cases. But it is still an exploit, by the strict definition of one. Some incredibly stupid things are tagged as exploits. Just look at beacon warp.
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
    The Doctor Guide to: Notum Wars Martial Arts Perks! Nano Controller Units
    The General Guide to: Auto-Combat General Perks

    Visit the Roses and check out the shops in our City, NE of ICC at 4500x1500 in Andromeda!

    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  18. #38
    Originally posted by Wal


    a little off topic we had no 150+ till we saw lvl 150+ clanners arrive, the funny thing was, i saw 175+ healing and buffing 140- under while they were in a fight in the 25% area isn't that supposed to be .. not possible? :/
    If they are teamed they can do anything. So, say I have a level 10 enyg buddy, and I'm a level 200 doc, I can team with him, his pet can destroy towers, and no one can attack them unless they are 150+. As long as you are teamed buffing limits do not apply.

    What they need to do is make PVP ranges transparent to teams. So being teamed or unteamed has zero effect on who you can fight, all that is checked is your level vs the target level. Same goes for buffing, so if you are 200 and teamed with a level 10, that level 10 is attacked, you can do NOTHING about it but watch the fight. No buffing, no healing, not even first aid. That kind of level transparency would go a long way to fixing part of the mess. Remember all these "player in team is too high or low" rules were put into place to prevent PVP exploits before NW, but that style of PVP is mostly dead now, and if they coded it this way to begin with this would have never been a problem in NW or the old-school 2ho/mmd team for protection lameness of the old title farming days.

  19. #39
    silly, now i remember why i hate alts

    and the whole running slow thing :/
    // wildwal - the sexiest adv evar - now with nr!
    // legion

  20. #40
    Detonate, by itself, no it isn't an exploit and it is indeed a wall. But it is also apparent you didn't read the very first post in this topic. It explains a very real situation. the person teams with someoen so he can't be attacked unitll all others ignore him because they can't attack. Then he unteams kills someone and quickly teams again. As the defenders now see he's vulnerable from his attack, they try to kill him and guess what, they can't now because he already reteamed before they reacted.

    Now aye, they should all be checking it from time to time to see if he's teamed or not, but there is a lot going on in a battlefield, and this one annoyance will be ignored when there are towers to kill, or defend.

    That, in essence, is why it is considered an exploit. If you can not see the tactical advantage this will bring, it will eventually be used on you and you will be forced to see it.

    Hope it helps.
    Silinar: 104 Meta-physicist. Elite Operations.


    “Man may never understand what we have done. But God will.” ~ George McKinney

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