Remove the mechanics for complete IPR and burn the disks the code is on!

[lilnymph]

nope, I mean once I have uploaded it, after all, before you put your ip's into something, you can put them where ever you like

hugs

lilnymph

[__________Curmudgeon]

Yep, I agree with you 100%, you should be able to download nanoformulas and sell them off when you no longer want them.

[lilnymph]

no, I dont want to sell it off, I want to swap it (not with someone in game) for a full set of CDS, with no more work for myself.

hugs

lilnymph

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Curmudgeon


So just because you don't agree doesn't mean you're right either.

Playing out a circular argument usually means you don't have any real reply.

Originally posted by Curmudgeon
I still don't agree with your argument that complete resets leads to mudflation or nerfs. Inflation does not necessarily lead to nerfs. It leads to certain weapons becoming obsolete compared to new ones, but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with nerfs.

Inflation is caused by games continually adding content that is better than previous content, so that they can retain customers who have already got all the best stuff in the game. Neither complete resets, nor inflation lead to nerfs.

Nerfs are the result of poor game balance. Not just ordinary poor game balance, but game balance that is substantial enough that one weapon/nanoformula/etc significantly outshines the average.

The evidence is there to see. Freedom Arms pulled from the drop tables because everyone was running around with one. Crit scope effectiveness hacked after remaining untoughed most of the game's lifetime. Why? Too many people using them skewing the balance worse than it was ( or do you think it took them most of release to figure out that crit scopes were causing the "crit-crit-crit-crit=hit=crit-crit-crit" chain?). Trader DHP getting fixed wasn't a priority until too many traders were using it. Then it became enough of a priority to break them with the knowledge that they were breaking them (Traders did tell them "This is gonna kill us" before the change left the test dimension). Look at what happens when they acknowledge a bug before fixing it, like the breaking teams while fight to power level (no I never used it). The game is littered with these examples.

Originally posted by Curmudgeon
The only argument relating "nerfs" to "complete resets" that I can deduce is that people would jump on bandwagons a bit faster, and necessary balance corrections would come from FunCom a bit faster.

But then you just finished saying you didn't see a correlation between the two. I'll ante + here and point out that when rushed because too many people have jumped on the bandwagon, Funcom doesn't have the time to fully investigate the balance corrections and often makes the situation worse.

Originally posted by Curmudgeon
Say for instance, if everyone could have reset some skills and jacked up Perception for crit scopes. Maybe that situation would have gotten uglier faster, and FunCom would have stepped in sooner. But something like that would have been nerfed sooner or later anyway. At least if you have the ability to reset your IPs, you could easily take your Perception back down.

And when something that uses Perception comes along again, resetting some other skills to bring Perception back up, right? This game has limited IP. At level 200 you have a certain amount of IP and no more. What you're talking about now is attempting to calculate for unlimited IP while trying to figure out availibility for content. They wouldn't be able to and would have to assume any new content would be immediately used by everyone. Following that logic, they'd have to make that content harder to aquire, sometimes to the point of stupidity. Look at the armor MRRs for a second. Why is their availibity so limited? Why can't Funcom rely on people lacking the skills necessary to get any use from a Shape Hard Armor MRR to ensure that tradeskill armor doesn't get too wide a distribution? Why is GA so rare?

Originally posted by Curmudgeon
Since when does having a complete reset give you something unearned. I earned my IP, if I reset and raise some other skill then I have to pay for that by lowering another skill. Nothing is being handed out for free with a complete reset.

People chose the easy route and benefitted for doing so. Those benefits aren't lost. Let's look at Fixers a moment. Their suggestions concerning IP allocation and Grid Armor specifically. Most say "Don't invest in MC until you actually get your hands on a GA crystal in your inventory since no other worthwhile nanos utilize it". So if such a fixer follows this advice but invests that IP in another skill, like say Body Dev, they receive the benefits of taking that route: more HP. You can't take back the easier time levelling that more HP give them, can you. But now when they do get their GA disk, they can reset whatever skills they spent their IP on to wear GA. Now that's why GA is a pain to find. Funcom knows they can't rely on people lacking the skills to to balance their usage so they make them impossible to find. Is IPR the only thing contributing to this? No. But it is a contributing factor and increasing their availibility would only amek the situation worse. I'd think that given 2 fixers of equal level, with one focusing on weapon skills and the other focusing on matter creation, it would be a great thing if the one that focused on nanoskills could use GA 3 while the other could only use GA 1.

Originally posted by Curmudgeon
Why bother with loot and stuff? Since when does changing how you spend the IP points you've earned result in free gear and experience? When you use a couple single-skill IPRs to move from 2HB to 2HE, do you get a free EQB?

See above. The way you spend your IP determines how hard/easy it is do perform certain tasks.The benefits of those tasks are permanent. Someone that chose a different path that makes things more difficult do earn the reward they receive when something new gets added that takes advantage of the path they chose.

Originally posted by Curmudgeon
I do agree that the situation above, of allowing unlimited and instant resets, is absolutely silly, would lead to horrible exploits/chaos, and should be avoided. But I disagree with the argument that the above example means that no complete resets should ever be allowed. If someone only got one complete reset per month, they obviously wouldn't gimp their combat skills just for one tradeskill combine.

Oh well, I just like to argue. We'll obviously never agree on any of this.

Damn I wish I could find the post I made predicting that if a complete IPR was ever done, Funcom would forever be faced with people demanding a new one. Read the topic of the thread again. Do you think they took out the code when the month was up? I doubt that. Chances are Funcom could give everyone a complete reset point again next time the servers are restarted for maintenance. So why haven't they done it? Why haven't they taken the easy route of pleasing their customers by doing so? Because they're jerks who don't care about their customers? They're too lazy to do it again? People that say junk like that are 5 year olds in the middle of a tantrum. It's prolly because they perceive a good reason not to do it. And yes, they could drop by and tell us the reason for not doing it. But like that would matter a fat lot. The people that want it would simply disagree with the reasons given (they've flat out ignored plenty of good reasons given here) and continue demanding it.

[__________Curmudgeon]

I still disagree with a lot of your points. Like my belief that FA's and Crit Scopes were nerfed had nothing to do with complete skill resets. Heck, there had never even been a complete skill reset when FA's were nerfed, if I remember my history correctly. If something is unbalanced, it's gonna get nerfed.

And the availability theory doesn't make any sense to me either. New content used by everyone immediately? Why would they add a new item to the game that was so overbalanced that a majority of the players would immediately reset and go after it. Not everyone will want to use new content, not everyone will want to reduce some other skill to use new content, not everyone will even necessarily be able to use the new content due to breed/profession.

The GA example of limited IPs being a factor in content availability baffles me too. My fixer has not raised MatCrea at all. If I happened to stumble across a GA disc, I could spend my whole next level's IP allotment on MatCrea. I wouldn't need to do a complete reset and reduce my Body Development or weapon skills. GA rarity has nothing to do with complete IP resets. Fixers ignore MatCrea unless they get GA, then they raise it. /shrug

You seem to have a fixation on this "being rewarded for taking a non-traditional IP path with future items" theory. Maybe there are people out there maxing Adventuring and Swimming with the eager anticipation of FunCom adding uber-neato Scuba Gear, or something. But guess what. If they add it, any person can raise their Adventuring the next time they level. And at the very end of the game, many folk have tons of IP left over for just such an occurrence. So, everyone who wants to use it bad enough, will be able to so almost immediately. With no resets needed.

Oh well, I enjoy a good argument, but I'm starting to lose my passion for this particular one. Specially since I have no need for any complete resets. I am just playing devil's advocate for the sake of the poor newbies who raise a bunch of useless skills in their first 100 levels and then realize what they've done to themselves. I know I did it on my first character, and abandoned him, back at release.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Curmudgeon
I still disagree with a lot of your points. Like my belief that FA's and Crit Scopes were nerfed had nothing to do with complete skill resets. Heck, there had never even been a complete skill reset when FA's were nerfed, if I remember my history correctly. If something is unbalanced, it's gonna get nerfed.

If an item is unbalanced, it's going to get nerfed. No argument. But the amount of time Funcom takes when planning how to nerf it does appear to be directly proportional to how badly it's being abused by the playerbase. The more people using it, the faster it goes up their priority list and the less time they have to spend on fixing it correctly.

Originally posted by Curmudgeon
And the availability theory doesn't make any sense to me either. New content used by everyone immediately? Why would they add a new item to the game that was so overbalanced that a majority of the players would immediately reset and go after it. Not everyone will want to use new content, not everyone will want to reduce some other skill to use new content, not everyone will even necessarily be able to use the new content due to breed/profession.

The GA example of limited IPs being a factor in content availability baffles me too. My fixer has not raised MatCrea at all. If I happened to stumble across a GA disc, I could spend my whole next level's IP allotment on MatCrea. I wouldn't need to do a complete reset and reduce my Body Development or weapon skills. GA rarity has nothing to do with complete IP resets. Fixers ignore MatCrea unless they get GA, then they raise it. /shrug

You seem to have a fixation on this "being rewarded for taking a non-traditional IP path with future items" theory. Maybe there are people out there maxing Adventuring and Swimming with the eager anticipation of FunCom adding uber-neato Scuba Gear, or something. But guess what. If they add it, any person can raise their Adventuring the next time they level. And at the very end of the game, many folk have tons of IP left over for just such an occurrence. So, everyone who wants to use it bad enough, will be able to so almost immediately. With no resets needed.

Oh well, I enjoy a good argument, but I'm starting to lose my passion for this particular one. Specially since I have no need for any complete resets. I am just playing devil's advocate for the sake of the poor newbies who raise a bunch of useless skills in their first 100 levels and then realize what they've done to themselves. I know I did it on my first character, and abandoned him, back at release.

I'm not going to argue with you either since you're obviously not serious about it. You're arguing for the sake of arguing, that much is evident.

And give up the "poor newbies who raise a bunch of useless skills" bullcrap. It's pretty damn difficult, thanks to title caps, to completely bork a character. And as you progress further more IP become availible that you really don't have anything to spend on. The people that have completely borked a character are the ones that kept hopping from skill to skill using their reset points and spending their excess IP all over the place. Those aren't newbies doing that.

[Thyrra]

Originally posted by lilnymph
no, I dont want to sell it off, I want to swap it (not with someone in game) for a full set of CDS, with no more work for myself.

hugs

lilnymph

offloading a nano to a crystal or disc and finding somebody to trade with can be seen as equivalent work to the hassle of getting nekked to do an IPR.

CDS is good stuff for atrox fixers that want to be able to take it off for social ocassions.

[lilnymph]

not really, as I would be quite willing to get "naked" (as it where) to swap these things. Oh, and have you seen anyone with a full set of ql200 cds, never mind someone willing to exchange it?

hugs

lilnymph

[outlawgimp]

at the end of the day, a business listens to its customers, if lots of people want a ipreset then its just a matter of time. sucks i know but there will be a reset some time or other, heh democracy

pleasing the majority

probably shadowlands unless they allow you to untrain skills ala asherans call 2.

i dont mind either way, i aint so into this game that i love my avatar so much fun should come first and if people get fun from resets then how the hell can u argue with that?

lol some people need to get out more, if u take ure avator so seriously. play for fun, not to escape reality

as someone said earlier, if u change the rules u should give people the ip reset points to adjust to the new rules. its only fair

thats just my opinion,

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Dasin
at the end of the day, a business listens to its customers, if lots of people want a ipreset then its just a matter of time. sucks i know but there will be a reset some time or other, heh democracy

pleasing the majority

probably shadowlands unless they allow you to untrain skills ala asherans call 2.

i dont mind either way, i aint so into this game that i love my avatar so much fun should come first and if people get fun from resets then how the hell can u argue with that?

lol some people need to get out more, if u take ure avator so seriously. play for fun, not to escape reality

as someone said earlier, if u change the rules u should give people the ip reset points to adjust to the new rules. its only fair

thats just my opinion,

I like having fun. Nerfs are not fun. The Trader DHP 'fix' is still by far the roughest handling any profession has received. Why couldn't they simply boost Doc heals? Funcom said there was enough healing in the game. Too many Traders were outclassing doctors (not in the heal department, but in the heal+other skills department) so we got the worst 'fix' in AO's history.

The crit scope nerf came for the same reason, everyone was using them tossing off damage. Problem was that shotties were highly dependant on crit damage (and despite what people think, Divest/Plunder raises crit chance a tiny amount).

I'm betting the Manex will be next on the list because of the amount of play it's getting right now. Wanna bet against me?

[Blackwing]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


I'm not going to argue with you either since you're obviously not serious about it. You're arguing for the sake of arguing, that much is evident.

And give up the "poor newbies who raise a bunch of useless skills" bullcrap. It's pretty damn difficult, thanks to title caps, to completely bork a character. And as you progress further more IP become availible that you really don't have anything to spend on. The people that have completely borked a character are the ones that kept hopping from skill to skill using their reset points and spending their excess IP all over the place. Those aren't newbies doing that.

you disregard his arguments because he said he was playing devils advocate not because he is just arguing for arguments sake.

that is unwise because it does not make his points less vaild.

i did not address the instant content argument because the logic is flawed but curmudgeon already commented on it.

face it:

there is no door you need 1000 break and entry to open that gives you access to new loot or a 1000 comp lit needed to access a new zone via the grid.

were these things in game, then you argument would have a merit but as it is its just moot.

you can argue about what you want or what i want for the rest of the year without us seing eye to eye. it is a circle because our justification would be within the argument itself.

neither of the 2 opinions has any bearing upon the topic however.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Blackwing


you disregard his arguments because he said he was playing devils advocate not because he is just arguing for arguments sake.

that is unwise because it does not make his points less vaild.

i did not address the instant content argument because the logic is flawed but curmudgeon already commented on it.

face it:

there is no door you need 1000 break and entry to open that gives you access to new loot or a 1000 comp lit needed to access a new zone via the grid.

were these things in game, then you argument would have a merit but as it is its just moot.

you can argue about what you want or what i want for the rest of the year without us seing eye to eye. it is a circle because our justification would be within the argument itself.

neither of the 2 opinions has any bearing upon the topic however.

How droll. An attempt to be literal? And a bad one at that. You do realize a tradeskill process is content, right? New items are content as well. So are new abilities.

As for the topic, I started it. It was moving quite nicely, with people making suggestions for how to correctly implement reset points. Then somewhere along the line the thread got detoured. Oh well. If people want to, I can aruge reset points here as well.

The instant retraining of skills is a bad thing. Most the people wanting it are prolly people that wanted, or would have wanted, OE to stay. The arguements are almost exactly the same.

What kills me the most is the duality of the demands. People complain about PvP twinks. But they want to hand them a method to both stay one top and refine their characters into ultimate PvP twinks. People complain when they see someone using an item or ability they think is theirs. Yet they want to have a way so more people can do the same. People complain about nerfs. But they want an officially endorsed method that will increase the likelyhood of something getting nerfed (Curmudgeon glossed that point completely over in his role of Devil's Advocate. You've been here long enough to know that's exactly why some nerfs happened). I wonder if people just want to complain all the time.

[Blackwing]

that your flaming and naming calling is not getting you or your causes any sympathies?

you do realise that ipr points and a complete ipr are tied together?

if you cannot bring arguments there is no need to discuss. i think it would be better if you put me on ignore again.

bye.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Blackwing
that your flaming and naming calling is not getting you or your causes any sympathies?

you do realise that ipr points and a complete ipr are tied together?

if you cannot bring arguments there is no need to discuss. i think it would be better if you put me on ignore again.

bye.

Because I said your response was droll? Gee...and there I barely tapped you after the therapy comment you sent my way. I can see why you and the other one agree so much. When cornered, you both start playing like you're the wounded party. Blithely forgetting about the flames you toss yourselves. And praying that nobody notices the lack of a response.

Though I'm quite sure you'll say you've never seen a nerf caused by too many people using an item (Freedom Arms 3297s), you've never seen anyone complain about another player using their weapons (soldiers and assault rifles) and how you've never seen anyone complain about PvP twinks (that's only half the forums).

[Swing]

I will have to come out of the closet on this one and state flat-out that I took advantage of the full IPR when it was offered. Looking back, I feel I made a mistake, as I pretty much gimped the living heck out of the character I did it to. I did learn the value of IPR, however.

That being said, I dont have a problem with full IPR. Im not gonna whine that we NEED it, but there is something to concider: Funcom is notorious for changing the basic mechanics of the game in pursuit of some kind of mythical 'balance'. Often drasticaly. And as has been stated elsewhere in this thread, this has, does, and will continue to take good, well-developed characters, and turn them into cripples overnight.

I am NOT an advocate of the Flavor-of-the-Week syndrome. I go as far as to play really wierd concepts, just to see what works and what dosent (Atrox MA-using NT, anyone? Dont laugh, it really does work ). However, there =are= many folks out there who dont mind playing the exact same thing that the guy next to them is, and hey, THEY PAY FOR THIS GAME, TOO. Lack of imagination should be painful, but since it aint, we'll just have to put up with 50 MCS-wielding Opi fixers for every Trox crat out there.

So here's my suggestion (and I apologize if it's been mentioned before, this is a loooong thread) - 1 full IPR per character lifetime. Just one full reset, because FC =is= gonna nerf your main into the stone age one of these days, and it truly sucks to see many months of gameplay flushed down the crapper cuz something dosent seem to 'balance'. There will be people who decide to use this one-time-only reset at lvl 10, and then cry foul when they still dont get what they like. Too bloody bad. Have a little patiance. There are many folks who will accept small nerfs, come up with workarounds or spend a precious regular IPR point or 2 to get back up to speed, rather then take the drastic step of a full IPR. And it is a drastic step, even moreso if you only can do it once. But that once can make the diffrence between a playable character and a really high-level mule.

Note: from an RP perspective, IPR makes no sense at all. Its strictly a game-mechanic thing, to keep the game enjoyable and (in some instances) playable. When was the last time your paper-and-pencil GM allowed you to compleatly rebuild your character from the ground up? (barring transfers to diffrent game systems). Dont see too many hands up.

[__________Curmudgeon]

Originally posted by Kuroshio
People complain about nerfs. But they want an officially endorsed method that will increase the likelyhood of something getting nerfed (Curmudgeon glossed that point completely over in his role of Devil's Advocate. You've been here long enough to know that's exactly why some nerfs happened). I wonder if people just want to complain all the time.

Again, I'm not sure what you're talking about. I've taken too many blows to the head, I reckon.

I don't agree with your assertion that Total IPRs lead to nerfs. I don't agree that Total IPRs increase the likelihood of a nerf. Nerfs occur when an item, skill, or tactic is obviously much more effective than the game designers intended.

There has been one Total IPR, and many nerfs. Did that Total IPR cause any nerfs? No. Any of the major nerfs that have come since the Total IPR are fairly obvious. Most were fairly obvious to serious players from day one.

If anything, the opposite is true, nerfs lead to Total IPRs.

Which is exactly why people cry for Total IPRs. Because people get annoyed when they carefully plan out an IP strategy, and then it gets devalued by changes in gameplay and game mechanics. People can and will design their characters to be the best that they can be. That will result in one type of tactic or weapon being utilized by a large amount of people. If that weapon or tactic is not balanced it will get changed. Then, folks will get annoyed and want more reset points. It's normal, it's natural. It's human nature...

This game is designed to grow and change. It must grow and change to stay fresh and interesting for its existing client base. A static skill system becomes flawed and frustrating when the conditions you used to make your skill decisions are changed.

[Waffen]

Kuroshio - do you honestly think that people would go to whatever imaginary number of instant tradeskillers you have in your head under a full IPR, or would they go to someone like Superslang and the rest of Tradeskillz who actually know what the hell they are doing and have the equipment to do it?

PvP über twinks? Not going to happen. The cream of the crop in PvP will still utterly blow to bits other PvP'ers due to their skill, regardless of what weapon of the week that IPR'd twink is using. And no, I'm not talking about the current low-level PvP twinks running around with upper-end buffs. That's a whole other argument.

You speak of MA's. Well, one of my toons is a level 143 MA. 100% fist. But what about those MA's that went the crossbow route w/scope, only to have FC change those weapons to primarily rifle skill? And with no viable alternative, that means Fling, AS were a total waste, along with EE and WS for the scope. 4 IPR's (saving bow for a rainy day) needed to get those points back. To hell with them?

How about some of the people I know that have come back to the game after a long abscence and missed the IPR? Tough crap for them too?

[eaze]

Originally posted by Sepaku
Just make 1 IP reset point = to xp needed to lvl. Basically you could switch your xp over to IPR and earn a point, but not regular xp. That way you could choose to work on fixing a broke char or for 200s gives you a reason to xp.

Cheers
Sepaku
131 Atrox Fixer

1 IPR point for 75mill xp? Yikes :/

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Waffen
Kuroshio - do you honestly think that people would go to whatever imaginary number of instant tradeskillers you have in your head under a full IPR, or would they go to someone like Superslang and the rest of Tradeskillz who actually know what the hell they are doing and have the equipment to do it?

It's not just about tradeskills Waffen. The only thing that keeps us from seeing every fixer in Grid Armor is the fact that it's so rare that when a Fixer aactually finds one themselves, they run to the store to buy a lottery ticket. Maybe if a fixer that wanted to use Grid Armor had to go through levels of reduced effectiveness while investing in MC and other nanoskills in order to wear it, it'd be in the game a bit more. But it has to be rare because finding it is the only difficult part. With IPR in the game, Funcom only recourse is to piss off the players by hiding stuff on impossible mobs or giving it drop chances way below 1% to keep things balanced.

Originally posted by Waffen
PvP über twinks? Not going to happen. The cream of the crop in PvP will still utterly blow to bits other PvP'ers due to their skill, regardless of what weapon of the week that IPR'd twink is using. And no, I'm not talking about the current low-level PvP twinks running around with upper-end buffs. That's a whole other argument.

Someone brand new to PvP won't beat the cream of the crop because they lack the skill, yes. But what they will do is make it impossible for anyone to compete unless you have reset and made yourself into a PvP twink as well. Should everyone be foreced into the current PvP flavor of the week in order to participate in PvP? So long as there are more 'normal' characters mass PvP can be participated in with normal characters.

Originally posted by Waffen
You speak of MA's. Well, one of my toons is a level 143 MA. 100% fist. But what about those MA's that went the crossbow route w/scope, only to have FC change those weapons to primarily rifle skill? And with no viable alternative, that means Fling, AS were a total waste, along with EE and WS for the scope. 4 IPR's (saving bow for a rainy day) needed to get those points back. To hell with them?

On the scope issue? Yes, to hell with them. Scopes still work and they made the choice to pick up a scope. Scopes are still in the game and still working. The crossbow/rifle issue is another story. I'm not familiar with whichever specific xbow you're referring to so I don't know what skills were necessary for it. So I can't comment on it beyond saying they might deserve some type of compensation for it. But that's an isolated issue, not one that applies to the entire player base, and can't be used as justification for it. And it damn sure doesn't take a complete reset to get out of a weapon choice.

Originally posted by Waffen
How about some of the people I know that have come back to the game after a long abscence and missed the IPR? Tough crap for them too?

Yes, but I seriously doubt the number of people that missed the complete reset are all that large. And it's far better to do the same thing they did with the pioneer backpacks than to screw up the balance of everything by making a complete reset availible to everyone. If you missed the /claim period on your backpack, you can petition for it. The Gm will check your account age and see if you're eligible then give you one. You don't knock down the whole house to fix a hole in a wall. You fix the hole.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Curmudgeon


Again, I'm not sure what you're talking about. I've taken too many blows to the head, I reckon.

I don't agree with your assertion that Total IPRs lead to nerfs. I don't agree that Total IPRs increase the likelihood of a nerf. Nerfs occur when an item, skill, or tactic is obviously much more effective than the game designers intended.

There has been one Total IPR, and many nerfs. Did that Total IPR cause any nerfs? No. Any of the major nerfs that have come since the Total IPR are fairly obvious. Most were fairly obvious to serious players from day one.

If anything, the opposite is true, nerfs lead to Total IPRs.

Which is exactly why people cry for Total IPRs. Because people get annoyed when they carefully plan out an IP strategy, and then it gets devalued by changes in gameplay and game mechanics. People can and will design their characters to be the best that they can be. That will result in one type of tactic or weapon being utilized by a large amount of people. If that weapon or tactic is not balanced it will get changed. Then, folks will get annoyed and want more reset points. It's normal, it's natural. It's human nature...

This game is designed to grow and change. It must grow and change to stay fresh and interesting for its existing client base. A static skill system becomes flawed and frustrating when the conditions you used to make your skill decisions are changed.

I'm giving you the same reply I gave Blackwing cause I'm being lazy. Please understand any hostility you find in the words are meant for him (don't like people that flame then cry when you smack them back).

Though I'm quite sure you'll say you've never seen a nerf caused by too many people using an item (Freedom Arms 3297s), you've never seen anyone complain about another player using their weapons (soldiers and assault rifles) and how you've never seen anyone complain about PvP twinks (that's only half the forums).

Though I suspect I'm misuing the word 'twink'. People are seeing the word and thinking someone with a higher level character giving them equipment. I use it for the lack of a better word to describe someone that has optimized their character to the extreme for PvP. A PvP character often is not as effective in PvM because of the choices they've made.