Remove the mechanics for complete IPR and burn the disks the code is on!

[Inconvenience]

Blackwing.

You said everything I didn't.

"do you think people are more likely to experiment with a character when they do not have to throw 100+ levels down the drain or when they do risk gimping their toon?"

EXACTLY !!!!!!

[Kuro]

Originally posted by smotheredhope
Blackwing.

You said everything I didn't.

"do you think people are more likely to experiment with a character when they do not have to throw 100+ levels down the drain or when they do risk gimping their toon?"

EXACTLY !!!!!!

Smotheredhope:
Blackwing is just attempting to bait me. He can't do it. I did ask you a question about UO earlier which you haven't answered yet.

You admired a specific skill system. That skill system also allowed for people to try out new skills but did not allow anyone to do so instantly. The developers of the same game that contained that system faced a sizeable uproar from their playerbase when incentinves were introduced that allowed people obtain skills far quicker than they did. Nobody in the past history of gaming industry allowed for instantaneous reversal of skills without penalty or cost. And current/future games, while allowing redistribution of skills, are will not make such a system instantaneous either.

Why are you so hellbent on bringing such a system here when by your own admission you admired a system that did NOT allow instant redistribution of skills, previous games rejecting the idea of such, and future game not even considering it?

I know why I'm against it. I've seen what happens when it was tried, when it failed, and the headache everyone had to go through to clean up the mess. Earned reset points, yes. Free rides leading to imbalances, loss of identity, and the escalation of game difficulty? No.

[skybert]

Originally posted by Coldbird
You're ignoring that Shadowlands will have the profession specializations. They've specifically said that this functionality will include changing skill colors around for each prof based on which one you choose.

In order for this to become anything but a clear exploit waiting to happen, they *MUST* include a full IPR, mandatory, when you choose that subtemplate profession.

Hence, the full IPR is going to come back if you want that level of game functionality, regardless of your half-justified 'insta-content-access' argument. Not everyone wants to roll up a new level 150 character for whatever good loot they happen upon with their main.

they said that? where? when? ...about shadowlands, I mean.
I know they said something about specializing, but changing colors? I don't remember reading that anywhere. Link, please!




btw, adding single IPRs should not be tied to either money or tokens. If ever implamented, it should be connected with a quest that does not involve camping anything. Make the quest hard to do, sure. Maybe even involving skills of several professions. But don't make it resolve around camping.

Oh, just to add... I used the full IPR when it was offered, but has never used any single IPRs. Doubt I ever will, though

[Chanliang]

One good solution would be "forgetting". Just put marker on skill what you dont need anymore and it will start reduce in the time, timer could be like 5-10/plaeyd h etc. Would be little closer to realistic than reset point. If you dont use skill eventually you will forget how to do things. It would be slow but eventually you would get back the needed ip's.

[Paffy]

Full IPR promoted two kinds of people.

1. Stupid ones

Those who didnt take any time to actually research what skill does or plan ahead at all. Those that came to river and were thinking that damn, this is slow, lets pour some IP to swimming without thinking that perhaps that IP could be spent more wisely somewhere else.

Actually stupid might be too strong word. Uneducated could be perhaps better.

When IPR came I did IPR all my characters, although I gotta say that only 1 of the 6 at time really needed it. Rest came back much as they were.

When I took a look of my NT example, there was nothing wrong, a level or two wouldn't have fixed and that was my first char. Why not? Because I had clear plan what I wanted and how to progress so even after a year, it was still pretty good.

2. VERY smart ones

Those who count things like this to happen. Those who optimize for the current rules. They will be very efficient but will need to go through painful rebuild later on...

Example would be using type X weapons and Y armor at low level because its better there and completely remaking those choices later level with IPR which allowed that char to progress much faster in levels at the cost of needed IPR.

Ofcourse not everything here is complete truth either. If you go as far as lvl 200 you can max pretty much everything that is not plain silly or really not meant for you in FC vision template.

So if you knew from day one that you are going 200 and pretty fast too, you could play like type 2, secure in knowledge that you can fix yourself pretty easy past lvl 150+

Shrug. I think original poster is right and I actually hope this game and future cames that come will only allow ONE character per account (even if I have 8 here and enjoy most of them).

One character makes your name and reputation more important. One character promotes role playing and character development.

I am maybe good example myself... I am pretty strong in "attitude" here in Forums and much more "nice" and laid back in actual game. Some people who hate me here or lets say "dont like my opinions" actually like some of my chars in game

Funny thing... shrug.

Zarch and da chars

Daquis 183 Agent
Zitaq 150 Soldier
Themech 145 Engineer
Zhakra 107 Fixer
Cheslav 102 Trader
Zzith 95 MP
Zhadam 83 Enforcer
Zarch 82 NT

[Inconvenience]

Kuroshio, the answer to the UO question is that I played before the near instant change you are talking about. Although I would not have been upset about the near instant skill training.

My life does not revolve around what other people do.

It would be better to have the training of skills while other skills atrophy. But AO does not have the mechanics for this. So, I would prefer the option of more IPR or another completer IPR simply because it would allow more people to try out more things. As the game is now people are afraid of trying anything but the "UBER" cookie cutter path for fear of having a character you have to spend hundreds of hours on permenantly gimped.

HAVE YOU PLAYED A CLASS TO LEVEL 200 KUROSHIO ONLY TO HAVE YOUR PRIMARY ABILITIES NERFED?

[lilnymph]

Originally posted by smotheredhope
HAVE YOU PLAYED A CLASS TO LEVEL 200 KUROSHIO ONLY TO HAVE YOUR PRIMARY ABILITIES NERFED?

erm, I kinda think that was why funcom gave us those nice IPR points in the first place, perhaps you should have kept some for a rainy day...............

hugs

lilnymph

[Kuro]

Originally posted by smotheredhope
Kuroshio, the answer to the UO question is that I played before the near instant change you are talking about. Although I would not have been upset about the near instant skill training.

My life does not revolve around what other people do.

It would be better to have the training of skills while other skills atrophy. But AO does not have the mechanics for this. So, I would prefer the option of more IPR or another completer IPR simply because it would allow more people to try out more things. As the game is now people are afraid of trying anything but the "UBER" cookie cutter path for fear of having a character you have to spend hundreds of hours on permenantly gimped.

HAVE YOU PLAYED A CLASS TO LEVEL 200 KUROSHIO ONLY TO HAVE YOUR PRIMARY ABILITIES NERFED?

My life doesn't revolve around what other people do. But when what they do affects me, I have an issue.

People that choose the cookie cutter path deserve to remain there when something that takes advantage of skills they chose to ignore gets introduced. They made the choice to be like everyone else. That means they are entitled to every advantage that choice gave them (short term, immediate power). And it means they are entitled to every disadvantage that choice gave them (missed future oportunity). Those are my feelings on that.

But I'm still willing to give and say "Okay, that may be too harsh for some people to accept so a way to gradually remake their character would be okay". You're not willing to give an inch. Everything about your position does not say "I want to experiment". What it really says is "I want to be uber everyday by switching t whatever is uber today". Let's call a cow a cow when we see one, eh?

As for your primary ability getting nerfed, I need an example. The crit nerfs? The Trader DHP 'fix'? Crowd control changes? What specifically are you referring to so i can respond properly? The only professions I see as being gimped in any major way at this moment are pet professions, as their primary source of power is tied up with pet pathing bugs (and engineers specifically because they lack offensive power outside of their pets).

Take a biiiiig pill and chill, smotheredhope. You need one if, as your last line seems to indicate, you're prepared to start hyperventilating over this.

[______________Sredni]

I think I'll point to a situation where I was forced to use some ipr. Mech Eng and Wpn Smithing. I'm a soldier and I dumped a s-hit load of ip into these skills ages ago to use a crit scope. I got good use out of em and everything went fine until funcom drastically changed the game, nerfing crit chance in pvp.

This had the effect of immediately gimping crit weapons in pvp, and I took my scope off and switched weapons.

So now I'm down 2 points out of my total, and I've been super carefull. But what about the next time funcom screwes us over like this? or the time after that? Sooner or later we will run out of ipr points, funcom needs to add a way ingame for us to gain new ones.

I'm opposed to a full ipr again tho , I figure a limited ability to gain new points would be enough.

[Inconvenience]

I have not used a single IPR. I am arguing for the people that might actually wanna have fun in a GAME.

I would support a gradual change but I don't think that's workable so I support instant change since that seems more in line with what is possible with existing game mechanics.

I noticed that you never answer any Questions Kuroshio, just shoot down other peoples arguments.

What I really wanna say is you can go to hell with your circular arguments. What I really wanna say is I'm glad your character is a gimp. What I really wanna say is that I hope funcom randomly bans you for some stupid reason like using your tradeskills or accepting duped creds without your knowledge.

Your circular arguments did tick me off. And that is what really makes me mad. I'm mad at myself for letting some nitwit like you trap me into getting pissed off about such a stupid idea.

Some people want to have fun in a game. People like you only have fun if other people around you don't have as much fun as you do.

I won't come back to this thread as I'm sure you'll have some more Bizzaro-World logic to throw in my face. Congratulations, I let my self get angry about your stupidity.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Sredni
I think I'll point to a situation where I was forced to use some ipr. Mech Eng and Wpn Smithing. I'm a soldier and I dumped a s-hit load of ip into these skills ages ago to use a crit scope. I got good use out of em and everything went fine until funcom drastically changed the game, nerfing crit chance in pvp.

This had the effect of immediately gimping crit weapons in pvp, and I took my scope off and switched weapons.

So now I'm down 2 points out of my total, and I've been super carefull. But what about the next time funcom screwes us over like this? or the time after that? Sooner or later we will run out of ipr points, funcom needs to add a way ingame for us to gain new ones.

I'm opposed to a full ipr again tho , I figure a limited ability to gain new points would be enough.

The crit chance changes was pretty drastic, no arguements here. The original one to scopes and changing crit nanos hurt people that used crit dependant weapons. Again no arguement here.

But while the effectiveness was reduced, those scopes still work. Not to the level which people were used to, but they do still work enough that people continue to use them. Now let me ask you something: if you got your hands on a Nophex Destroyer, would you use a crit scope with it if you still had the skills to do so? Of course you would.

You chose the advantage of short term, immediate power by switching weapons over future opportunity. That's you're choice to make but it is a sacrifice and sacrifices are part of this game. Nobody can max every skill and most of the character's career is chosing one skill over another to invest IP in.

If Funcom introduced a really nice dune buggy tomorrow but it required Adventuring skill to use, I'd not be able to use it (unless the amount required could be met by trickle down and my pioneer backpack). But if there is someone out there that has been investing in Adventuring for some strange reason, I'd be happy for them that they got rewarded for doing so. They were in the proper place to take advantage of something new. Now if I want to do so myself, it's up to me to earn that same right. Not just grab it from them.

[Thyrra]

Originally posted by Kuroshio
If Funcom introduced a really nice dune buggy tomorrow but it required Adventuring skill to use, I'd not be able to use it (unless the amount required could be met by trickle down and my pioneer backpack). But if there is someone out there that has been investing in Adventuring for some strange reason, I'd be happy for them that they got rewarded for doing so. They were in the proper place to take advantage of something new. Now if I want to do so myself, it's up to me to earn that same right. Not just grab it from them.

reward good guessing, blind luck, and/or raising a skill to use for some other purpose ( or accidentally hitting accept while fooling around with IP )? doesn't sound like a good plan.

make a dune buggy that uses adventuring and ground vehicle because it makes sense and everyone who meets the reqs ( because they already has the skills and those that raise the skill can use it ) can use them.

being able to reset swimming to raise adventuring doesn't rob adventurers of anything, imo.

i still like the idea of earning ipr points and/or unlearning skills.

[Docmax]

Every time they alter the rules, they should offer IPr points.

[______________Sredni]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


The crit chance changes was pretty drastic, no arguements here. The original one to scopes and changing crit nanos hurt people that used crit dependant weapons. Again no arguement here.

But while the effectiveness was reduced, those scopes still work. Not to the level which people were used to, but they do still work enough that people continue to use them. Now let me ask you something: if you got your hands on a Nophex Destroyer, would you use a crit scope with it if you still had the skills to do so? Of course you would.

You chose the advantage of short term, immediate power by switching weapons over future opportunity. That's you're choice to make but it is a sacrifice and sacrifices are part of this game. Nobody can max every skill and most of the character's career is chosing one skill over another to invest IP in.

Actually no I wouldn't use my scope with a nophex, the guns to slow to use with any scope. And in pvp the scopes no longer work, you will do less damage with -900 init's and a mere +7.5% crit, then you would with a tim scope and a slower weapon. I used my scope with a nova flow before, but the nova flow no longer works in pvp.

I'm too lazy to figure damage, but someone should put the nophex through the damage calc with 1100 init and 2%crit, or with 200 init and 9%crit. bah, I'll do it nvm..




nophex 1000 atk, 200 init, 9% crit, 4000ac-

In 60s with a cycle speed of 3.1s, (1.92s Attack, 1.18s Recharge) you would have attacked 19 times. Total damage in 60s would be around 17005 points.

Special attack damage in 60s would be around 3821 points, bringing total damage to around 20826 points.

Your average normal hit would be around 677 points.
Fling Shots in 60s would be approx. 2 @ 38s, adding around 1790 points.
Bursts in 60s would be approx. 1 @ 66s, adding around 2031 points each for 2031 points total.



nophex 1000 atk, 1100 init, 2% crit, 4000ac-

In 60s with a cycle speed of 2s, (1s Attack, 1s Recharge) you would have attacked 30 times. Total damage in 60s would be around 21750 points.

Special attack damage in 60s would be around 3481 points, bringing total damage to around 25231 points.

Your average normal hit would be around 677 points.
Fling Shots in 60s would be approx. 2 @ 38s, adding around 1450 points.
Bursts in 60s would be approx. 1 @ 66s, adding around 2031 points each for 2031 points total.





yer gimping yourself for damage in pvp if you use a scope these days ... well with guns like those anyways. I hear the traders are still getting along fine with their scopes and shottys... I'm no trader tho .

Funcom changed game mechanics there, and if we want to enjoy the game and continue playing we need to change with the game. IPR's are neccessary due to funcom's flipfloping with it's rules .

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Thyrra

reward good guessing, blind luck, and/or raising a skill to use for some other purpose ( or accidentally hitting accept while fooling around with IP )? doesn't sound like a good plan.

make a dune buggy that uses adventuring and ground vehicle because it makes sense and everyone who meets the reqs ( because they already has the skills and those that raise the skill can use it ) can use them.

being able to reset swimming to raise adventuring doesn't rob adventurers of anything, imo.

i still like the idea of earning ipr points and/or unlearning skills.

The dune buggy thing is rather abstract, no doubt. But people aren't talking about resetting swimming to reclaim some points to raise something else. They're talking about seeing someone with a Manex (I hate to use this gun for examples all the time but it is the 'in' thing right now) and wanting to reset their AR, Fling, and FA so they can uberize with a Manex. And then if a new weapon gets introduced that takes say Grenade and Heavy Weapons, resetting their SMG and Burst to uberize with in Grenade and Heavy Weapons. I know you've been around long enough to know this is exactly what's being discussed here. And not the "I want to experiment" smokescreen.

If people wanted to experiment, why aren't they suggesting methods to Funcom that would let them experiment before using their IPR to decide? Because they don't want to experiment.

And if Funcom didn't listen to the suggestions, why aren't they doing something to experiment in other ways? Like contributing on the Test Dimension? I've seen posts from Chronita concerning breakdowns of MA weapons around these forums. I believe she's got the Howling Bow MAs are drooling over as well.

Nobody wants to experiment. They want to get on top and stay there using IPR every time a new weapon gets introduced. And to me, there are too many visible downsides to that if it's instant. Too much recent and past evidence of what happens when FC sees the imbalance has gotten out of control and takes actions to curtail it (nerf).

[Mercatura]

My life doesn't revolve around what other people do. But when what they do affects me, I have an issue.

Except that it doesn't affect you, only in your imaginary "must be perfect to my idea of RPG" world. Nobody is cheating, and you don't have to use them.

They change the rules for various reasons without telling us, and their reasons aren't always that good either.

Rewarding or punishing people for working under old rules and just dumping new rules on them without adjustment is stupid and mean.

Though I don't see the need for another full IPR, means to get more points are needed, since they wont stop changing the rules anytime soon.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Sredni


...
Funcom changed game mechanics there, and if we want to enjoy the game and continue playing we need to change with the game. IPR's are neccessary due to funcom's flipfloping with it's rules .

You got me on the scope + nophex. I'm not familiar with the nophex outside soldiers upset about who has it

But the crit changes are a pretty bad example in my eyes. Crits were so far out of control people might as well have called them normal hits, with regular shots being misses.

The PvP crit changes were across the board. It hurt MAs more than everyone else because we had given up, for the most part, our reliance on crits. While they still depend on them to equalize in PvP. But you won't find a single MA that wants to IPR out of the skills necessary to cast their crit nanos, even if no other nanos depended on them, over the change. Nor would they give up their fists (except maybe a level 200 that couldn't progress any further).

Any crowd controllers out there that want to give up their crowd control nanos over the changes to the nanos? I sure won't give up my calms and roots. Now it's possible an Atrox or a Nanomage might have wanted to reset body dev/nanopool, respectively, because with the recalculation giving them more naturally they could reclaim some extra IP from those places. But I wouldn't bet the ranch on many. And that would require 1 IPR.

There just aren't a whole lot of reasons, Funcom's nerfs included, for using IPR constantly. Most of the changed skills are too vital to give up or the change hit everyone equally (crit change + MA exempted).

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Mercatura


Except that it doesn't affect you, only in your imaginary "must be perfect to my idea of RPG" world. Nobody is cheating, and you don't have to use them.

They change the rules for various reasons without telling us, and their reasons aren't always that good either.

Rewarding or punishing people for working under old rules and just dumping new rules on them without adjustment is stupid and mean.

Though I don't see the need for another full IPR, means to get more points are needed, since they wont stop changing the rules anytime soon.

You must have missed the part where I said earning the points are fine, so long as its earned.

And it does affect me. And it affected you as well, Ms Trader. While crit scopes were in low circulation, Funcom didn't touch them. It wasn't until everyone and thier alt was using them, hammering the mobs like a kid with a hammer that just discovers a whole bunch of nails (not calling people kids, but my cousin's son just put 12 through their antique wood wardrobe), that a bunch of traders ended up looking at their ithicas going "Ewww".

And that particular change didn't affect me. I had given up on shotguns before hand, using my divest/plunders with other weapons, to be different.

[__________Curmudgeon]

Originally posted by Kuroshio
They're talking about seeing someone with a Manex (I hate to use this gun for examples all the time but it is the 'in' thing right now) and wanting to reset their AR, Fling, and FA so they can uberize with a Manex. And then if a new weapon gets introduced that takes say Grenade and Heavy Weapons, resetting their SMG and Burst to uberize with in Grenade and Heavy Weapons. I know you've been around long enough to know this is exactly what's being discussed here. And not the "I want to experiment" smokescreen.

Again, playing devil's advocate... so what?

How is it a problem for you if some soldier wants to set aside his assault rifle and pick up an SMG for awhile? It's a gun. It makes no sense from a roleplaying perspective, and it makes no sense from a gameplay perspetive.

Originally posted by Kuroshio
If people wanted to experiment, why aren't they suggesting methods to Funcom that would let them experiment before using their IPR to decide? Because they don't want to experiment.

And to complete the circle on that circular argument, why would people talk about experimenting when you obviously can't under the current skill situation. Of course people would love to experiment with different styles with their main character!!! But no one is intentionally gonna gimp their character with interesting and non-conventional strategies, if it will ruin months of work.

I just can't fathom why you are so worked up about this topic. It always comes back to how other people changing their IP allocation affects you. Get over it. You are not the main concern of most people who play this game. Most people want to have fun and enjoy their characters. Most people would have more fun and enjoy their characters more with increased control over their IP expenditure.

[Kuro]

Taking these out of order a bit.

Originally posted by Curmudgeon

And to complete the circle on that circular argument, why would people talk about experimenting when you obviously can't under the current skill situation. Of course people would love to experiment with different styles with their main character!!! But no one is intentionally gonna gimp their character with interesting and non-conventional strategies, if it will ruin months of work.

To complete that circular arguement, why would people talk about getting more ipr when you obviously can't under the current game mechanics? That's what suggestions are for, aren't they?

Originally posted by Curmudgeon
Again, playing devil's advocate... so what?

How is it a problem for you if some soldier wants to set aside his assault rifle and pick up an SMG for awhile? It's a gun. It makes no sense from a roleplaying perspective, and it makes no sense from a gameplay perspetive.

The crit nerfs came in direct response to the amount of crits being done in the game, throwing off the balance. Every single nerf seems to be backed up by that exact same thought process. Too many people taking advantage of a bug that Funcom has already acknowledged gets it called an exploit. Too many people taking advantage of a weapon? It gets nerfed as well. The pattern of behavior is there and while it is Funcom's fault for the situation existing, we don't have to perpetuate the situation ourselves do we?

Originally posted by Curmudgeon
I just can't fathom why you are so worked up about this topic. It always comes back to how other people changing their IP allocation affects you. Get over it. You are not the main concern of most people who play this game. Most people want to have fun and enjoy their characters. Most people would have more fun and enjoy their characters more with increased control over their IP expenditure.

I'm sick of nerfs. They rarely happen to me or affect me in a major way because I play balanced characters. Since I'm not extreme, the nerfs that do happen to me aren't that extreme. But I actually do like most the people round here, even Mercatura that nut . Why sit still when you can see the wall people are about to run into? An overabundance of IPR won't help anyone. Just cause more nerfs.

I also like having an identity in these games. That's what they're made for, creating an identity. I don't like seeing people's identity disappear at the flip of a switch. If identity wasn't an important, intergral, part of mmoRPGs, why bother having all the different avatars? The different clothing types? The different weapon types? Why bother having the different skill sets with the choice of how to invest them up to you? Things could be made much simpler for our PCs to handle if we stripped away most of them.

P.S.
In fact, why are we even having this discussion here? I think we know quite well what SOE/Verant, Turbine and other mmorpg developers would say to people demanding instant retraining of skills. That is after they stopped laughing. I do believe there is a reason behind it here but hope that reason isn't what I think it is.