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Thread: Expoit in teaming

  1. #1

    Unhappy Expoit in teaming

    Yesterday, while defending a base, I saw a level 130ish trader in the 75% zone, on the border of the 25% zone. He ran across the border, and at the time, was teamed with someone too high or too low for anyone to attack him. He stayed teamed until he was able to pick off the lower levels, including me, safely.

    This is pretty cheap. My 110 NT could team with a level 50 player and be completly safe to simply walk into an omni base and scout it out. This is ridiculous! I think an individual player, who isn't teamed, should be able to attack another player in a team even if they are teamed too/high or too low. On the other hand, the player in the team should not be able to attack back until they left the team.

    I'm sure I'll get several opinions on this, so fire away!

    Nevac

    Modulate [110 Clan NT]
    http://www.anarchy-online.com/charac.../name/modulate

  2. #2
    Hi Modulate I agree with you on this, any player should always be able to strike back at any attacker, regardless of the level range of the attacker's team. Anything else is unfair.
    Bret 'Bothead' Bannister
    Member of Rising Phoenix

  3. #3
    The solution is simple imo

    If the pvp range on the area is 20-30, make it so only levels20-30 can attack or be attacked eachother/towers in this area.

    If the zone has a tower range of lvl150-200, make it so only lvl 150-200 people can attack or be attacked within this zone, so even if a lvl25 in the lvl20-30 range towers was teamed with a lvl 140, the low level can still be attacked while in the pvp zone by people around his level, but none higher/lower.

  4. #4
    It always goes off the highest level player.

    So if that level 50 person teams with a level 150 in order to be "safe" from all the level 50's in the area. Guess what? He is fully attackable by anyone 150-200.
    Veteran Homer "Detonate" McDuff - My Equipment
    -= First Order =-

    First Order is one of the largest and most powerful Omni-Tek Departments located on Rubi-Ka 1. If you are a dedicated Omni-Tek employee looking for superior opportunities within the company, check out http://www.firstorder.net/ and apply for a position today!
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    WHY MMORPG'S SUCK!

  5. #5
    Originally posted by Detonate
    It always goes off the highest level player.

    So if that level 50 person teams with a level 150 in order to be "safe" from all the level 50's in the area. Guess what? He is fully attackable by anyone 150-200.
    But how many guilds with level 50 towers are going to have level 200 players on call? It doesn't matter if a level 50 is attackable by level 200s, if no level 200s are around to attack him.

    That was the point of putting in the restrictions and extending them to healing and buffing in the first place - to even the battles some between people who didn't have level 200 help, and people who did.

    And as is coming up more and more both ingame and on these boards, what FC did, didn't solve the problem they claimed they were trying to, and even introduced other problems. Like this one.
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
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    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  6. #6
    Do you just follow me around to controdict everything I say?

    You say that anyone with a level 50 base won't have any level 200's around.

    So what is someone that has a level 200 around doing attacking a level 50 base?

    Same logic.
    Veteran Homer "Detonate" McDuff - My Equipment
    -= First Order =-

    First Order is one of the largest and most powerful Omni-Tek Departments located on Rubi-Ka 1. If you are a dedicated Omni-Tek employee looking for superior opportunities within the company, check out http://www.firstorder.net/ and apply for a position today!
    First Order is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate based on Breed, Level, or Profession.


    WHY MMORPG'S SUCK!

  7. #7
    Originally posted by Detonate
    Do you just follow me around to controdict everything I say?

    You say that anyone with a level 50 base won't have any level 200's around.

    So what is someone that has a level 200 around doing attacking a level 50 base?

    Same logic.
    Twink/alt/training/feeder guilds for 150+ only guilds. You know, like Tempest, Children of the Apocalypse, Babylegion... and for example, Sunday afternoon Babylegion took out three level 30-50 bases in Aegean. Probably just for some fun - and I can't argue with that, I'm sort of tired of the CC-warping lagfests around most of the level 150+ bases myself.

    But every single character in Babylegion (correct me if I'm wrong, Legionnaires) is the alt of someone whose main is in the 150+ only Legion guild. They had people from level 25 to level 140 there, from what I saw; they certainly could have had enough level 200s to make CC kick in, if they wanted to. But two of the three the bases they attacked, as far as I am aware, belonged to guilds who were mostly level 120 or lower.

    I don't follow you around, Detonate, but I comment on your statements more than most because you don't seem to get the very simple concept: Exploits are bad and should be fixed.
    Last edited by Jynne; Jan 6th, 2003 at 17:45:27.
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
    The Doctor Guide to: Notum Wars Martial Arts Perks! Nano Controller Units
    The General Guide to: Auto-Combat General Perks

    Visit the Roses and check out the shops in our City, NE of ICC at 4500x1500 in Andromeda!

    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  8. #8
    In order for it to be an exploit, the player must gain an unfair advantage.

    They do not.

    Therefore you can't consider this an exploit.
    Veteran Homer "Detonate" McDuff - My Equipment
    -= First Order =-

    First Order is one of the largest and most powerful Omni-Tek Departments located on Rubi-Ka 1. If you are a dedicated Omni-Tek employee looking for superior opportunities within the company, check out http://www.firstorder.net/ and apply for a position today!
    First Order is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate based on Breed, Level, or Profession.


    WHY MMORPG'S SUCK!

  9. #9
    Originally posted by Detonate
    In order for it to be an exploit, the player must gain an unfair advantage.

    They do not.

    Therefore you can't consider this an exploit.
    No, an exploit is the use of a bug or game mechanic in ways unintended by the designers in order to gain an advantage.

    It doesn't need to be an unfair advantage. Any advantage will do.

    As Cz posted when they decided to impose pvp bracket restrictions on buffing and healing, the intent of the designers as regards using PvP level brackets is to even battles at least a bit between organizations who do not have the capability of calling in high level help against organizations who do.

    Using the level brackets in order to make oneself unattackable by the opposing organization is therefore taking advantage of the mechanic to gain an advantage. Therefore it's an exploit. QED.
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
    The Doctor Guide to: Notum Wars Martial Arts Perks! Nano Controller Units
    The General Guide to: Auto-Combat General Perks

    Visit the Roses and check out the shops in our City, NE of ICC at 4500x1500 in Andromeda!

    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  10. #10
    What advantage do they get? NONE!

    They can't attack the towers. They can't attack the players. They can't do anything except for being mauled by the high level players that are ALWAYS there.

    So what is the advantage?

    Oh yeah, they can break team and pick off a target.

    Same as if they ran from 75% to 25% and "exploited" the Grace period to pick off a target.

    Not to mention that now that they have broken team, they are all by their lonesome fighting people that SHOULD be teamed, making that 1 person attackable by everyone in the opposing team.

    Or if the 1 high level in a team of 5 lower levels leaves the team, it's still 5 on 6, again NOT giving them an advantage.
    Veteran Homer "Detonate" McDuff - My Equipment
    -= First Order =-

    First Order is one of the largest and most powerful Omni-Tek Departments located on Rubi-Ka 1. If you are a dedicated Omni-Tek employee looking for superior opportunities within the company, check out http://www.firstorder.net/ and apply for a position today!
    First Order is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate based on Breed, Level, or Profession.


    WHY MMORPG'S SUCK!

  11. #11
    I repeat, it doesn't have to be a good advantage, it just has to be an advantage that the designers didn't intend. Or even a use of the game mechanic in a way the designers didn't intend for no significant advantage can be an exploit.

    Remember shooting fish? It wasn't very good exp over time, it certainly wasn't going to level you faster than getting a team, but it was still an exploit.

    Being unattackable while you walk through the enemy's towers and see who's there and what professions they are, by the by, is a nice advantage.

    In the end the key to determining an exploit is whether or not the mechanic or effect is working as the game designers intend. The real problem we have on AO in knowing what exploits are, is knowing wht the designers intend, because they rarely ever tell us.

    As regards pvp level limits, however, they did tell us - and it wasn't so people would be immune to attacks to people in their own proper pvp range.
    Last edited by Jynne; Jan 6th, 2003 at 18:16:55.
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
    The Doctor Guide to: Notum Wars Martial Arts Perks! Nano Controller Units
    The General Guide to: Auto-Combat General Perks

    Visit the Roses and check out the shops in our City, NE of ICC at 4500x1500 in Andromeda!

    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  12. #12
    Originally posted by Jynne
    Being unattackable while you walk through the enemy's towers and see who's there and what professions they are, by the by, is a nice advantage.
    That's the point. You ARE attackable.
    Veteran Homer "Detonate" McDuff - My Equipment
    -= First Order =-

    First Order is one of the largest and most powerful Omni-Tek Departments located on Rubi-Ka 1. If you are a dedicated Omni-Tek employee looking for superior opportunities within the company, check out http://www.firstorder.net/ and apply for a position today!
    First Order is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate based on Breed, Level, or Profession.


    WHY MMORPG'S SUCK!

  13. #13
    Since you just aren't going to give up... from Cz's own post starting the thread about limiting heals and buffs in a PvP area:

    During land control battles we often see people outside the level range of the combat (e.g. level 200 buffers in a battle of a level 40-50 area, or level 125 Doctor healers in a 200+ area) participating as buffers and healers without fear of repercussions due to being outside PvP range for the combatants.

    To help those who do not have the possibility of bringing in such backup, we are working on a system to make sure that if you're not open to attack, you can't participate in the battle by other means.
    The thread can be found at http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...threadid=77007

    So the intent of the level limits is exactly so that people who are low level do not need high level people on their side to fight. That would obviously include not needing high level people to get into the right pvp range because of the teaming rules.

    You argued strenuously against outside high level healers, as I recall, and wouldn't accept "get high level help of your own" as a response. The teaming exploit here is essentially the same thing and you're here defending it and telling people to get high level help of their own. Make up your mind.
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
    The Doctor Guide to: Notum Wars Martial Arts Perks! Nano Controller Units
    The General Guide to: Auto-Combat General Perks

    Visit the Roses and check out the shops in our City, NE of ICC at 4500x1500 in Andromeda!

    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  14. #14
    I really don't understand how you can be so lost.

    While they are teamed with High Levels, they are attacked by high levels. (If they are there) = No advantage.


    While they are teamed with High Level, they are not able to attack low levels, or tower. (If no high levels are there to attack them) = No advantage.


    Case closed.

    It works in every scenario except for your endless whining.
    Veteran Homer "Detonate" McDuff - My Equipment
    -= First Order =-

    First Order is one of the largest and most powerful Omni-Tek Departments located on Rubi-Ka 1. If you are a dedicated Omni-Tek employee looking for superior opportunities within the company, check out http://www.firstorder.net/ and apply for a position today!
    First Order is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate based on Breed, Level, or Profession.


    WHY MMORPG'S SUCK!

  15. #15
    I should have remembered that it's pointless to try and reason with you. But I'll try one more time.

    Exploits are exploits because the game isn't working the way it should, not because it confers an advantage, large or small.

    What is or is not an exploit is determined based on what the intention of the designers is for creating a mechanic that is exploitable.

    The intention of the designers in adding PvP restrictions based on level brackets was to keep the actions of high level players from directly effecting low level tower battles.

    Ergo, using PvP level restrictions in such a way that high level characters directly effect low level tower battles is an exploit.

    This is one of the few cases where Funcom actually told us what they intend by a change. They intend for guilds not to need high level people to fight low level battles. So your "option 1" is not an option, and your "option 2" is the exploit of making people unattackable.

    Now is the time where you either eat your earlier words about high level healers, or STFU about bringing in high levels to counter-attack teams that are exploiting the brackets.
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
    The Doctor Guide to: Notum Wars Martial Arts Perks! Nano Controller Units
    The General Guide to: Auto-Combat General Perks

    Visit the Roses and check out the shops in our City, NE of ICC at 4500x1500 in Andromeda!

    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  16. #16
    Jesus you are clueless.

    No outcome is changed. It doesn't effect anything.
    Veteran Homer "Detonate" McDuff - My Equipment
    -= First Order =-

    First Order is one of the largest and most powerful Omni-Tek Departments located on Rubi-Ka 1. If you are a dedicated Omni-Tek employee looking for superior opportunities within the company, check out http://www.firstorder.net/ and apply for a position today!
    First Order is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate based on Breed, Level, or Profession.


    WHY MMORPG'S SUCK!

  17. #17
    I was at three battles on Sunday alone where it did affect the fight, Detonate. Even if it's so much as targeting someone who is equal level as yourself and you can't attack them, it both affects the battle and annoys the players who aren't exploiting.

    A level 94 and a level 72 using the teaming exploit to stay out of range of the level 60-75 defenders at one base were able to kill several towers while immune to counter attack. This battle was being decided by the exploit, not by numbers or PvP skill, until other guilds came to help with some people in the 80-100 range.

    The defenders, who had been prevented by the limits from defending their own base, were hardly what could be described as happy campers.

    So, sorry, you're wrong.
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
    The Doctor Guide to: Notum Wars Martial Arts Perks! Nano Controller Units
    The General Guide to: Auto-Combat General Perks

    Visit the Roses and check out the shops in our City, NE of ICC at 4500x1500 in Andromeda!

    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  18. #18
    How is a level 94 and 72 teaming an exploit?

    You just take bull**** to the next level.
    Veteran Homer "Detonate" McDuff - My Equipment
    -= First Order =-

    First Order is one of the largest and most powerful Omni-Tek Departments located on Rubi-Ka 1. If you are a dedicated Omni-Tek employee looking for superior opportunities within the company, check out http://www.firstorder.net/ and apply for a position today!
    First Order is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate based on Breed, Level, or Profession.


    WHY MMORPG'S SUCK!

  19. #19
    Originally posted by Jynne
    I was at three battles on Sunday

    A level 94 and a level 72 using the teaming exploit to stay out of range of the level 60-75 defenders at one base were able to kill several towers while immune to counter attack.
    What was high level person like you doing at this low level tower raid.

    EXPLOITER! EXPLOITER! EXPLOITER!
    Veteran Homer "Detonate" McDuff - My Equipment
    -= First Order =-

    First Order is one of the largest and most powerful Omni-Tek Departments located on Rubi-Ka 1. If you are a dedicated Omni-Tek employee looking for superior opportunities within the company, check out http://www.firstorder.net/ and apply for a position today!
    First Order is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate based on Breed, Level, or Profession.


    WHY MMORPG'S SUCK!

  20. #20
    Originally posted by Detonate
    How is a level 94 and 72 teaming an exploit?

    You just take bull**** to the next level.
    It's not, except in so far as it makes the level 72 untouchable by other level 72s in pvp.

    Do you think the designers intend for a level 72 to be untouchable by another level 72 in pvp under any circumstances - given what Cz posted and I quoted above?
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
    The Doctor Guide to: Notum Wars Martial Arts Perks! Nano Controller Units
    The General Guide to: Auto-Combat General Perks

    Visit the Roses and check out the shops in our City, NE of ICC at 4500x1500 in Andromeda!

    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

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