BUMP for new complete IPR

[Hajkster]

Originally posted by lilnymph


nope, its called responsibility, and living with the consequences. You where given 15 IPR, more than enough to fix any changes to the rules Funcom made. You chose to use them on something else. Live with it.

wow, that was harsh from me wasn't it

hugs

lilnymph

But i did use them, then FC change something again. So this time im not alowed to change it? No infact they should have hindered me from the first time if i wasnt supposed to use it. Thats how just it is. It's not real.. It's a game were you are supposed to have fun. A mmorpg were you are supposed to have variety. Not a prison or FPS. Go play real for a moment then if you wanted responsibility and learn to live with consequences, because all i can see your saying no to a extra ipr is because your jealous of someone else changing something.

No worry, i can take harsh stuff.. ;P

huggles

[Hajkster]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


They did hinder you. They let you use them until you ran out. I can't think of being more hindered than that

How is that hinder me to use ipr?

[Hajkster]

Actully all i can see thouse that are against it is that they are Well good and dont want anyone else get a chance to be it. They want easy targets and a ipr would make em jealous. Kinda greedy if i should say it. Thats really the only reason i can see it as.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Blackwing

as to kuro and the point about the weapon options:

certainly you will find shotguns that are not crit dependant. at the moment 2 - and you will find at least one weapon in every weapon category that does ok in pvm without being crit reliant.

true this is alot better then at launch.

but still, would it not be great if fast, crit reliant weapons were a viable alternative? some folks like to push alot of buttons when tanking because its their style of play. with the critnerf it was natural that they went around looking for other weapons imo.

THe only thing that changed about the weapon they were using was it no longer did a crit for 4 shots out of 5. THe number of special attacks wasn't changed. Just the crit damage reduced.

I don't think most people aren't even trying to get out of crit reliant weapons. They just want to switch to a new weapon that does those extra couple points more damage per salvo with their current +crit items and abilities.

[__________Curmudgeon]

I'm against it. The game is based on a static skill-based line of progression. Allowing people to shift IP around totally disrupts that progression. Below I will give you two reasons why I don't want a total IPR, and the reasons why I don't believe it should be necessary.

1) An essential part of being "good" at the game is the careful and knowledgeable management and expenditure of IPs. I am proud of my IP expenditure habits and knowledge and have worked hard to develop those skills as a player. IPRs (and especially Total IPRs) negate that knowledge. If someone spends their IPs willy-nilly without plan or forethought, they should end up with a less effective character. Period.

The existing 15 IPRs, over a character's career, should be more than enough to rectify any major rules changes by FunCom, unless they are frittered away on non-conventional experimentation or switching to the Fad of the Week.

2) Some professions should be inherently more flexible in their weapon choices. At high level, it is easy for enforcers and soldiers to max multiple green weapon skills. Switching between different styles of weapons should be a "professional benefit" for enforcers and soldiers. They should have (and do have) the IP to readily raise multiple weapon skills at high level. IPRs negate that advantage.

A high level soldier should have the ability to use a Manex AND a hellspinner AND an X3 through raising multiple weapons skills. This gives the profession the profession-specific benefit, at high level, of being able to use whichever ranged weapon is best for their situation or is best in the game. Ranged weapon flexibility and adaptability should be a soldier advantage. An enforcer should have the same profession-specific benefit for melee weapons.

However, IPRs allow any class to switch from X3, to Manex, to Queen Blade, to whatever else is the next "Best Weapon" in the game. Sure, their AR will never be as high as a soldier's or enforcer's, but they can still use any type of weapon they want, to always have the very best weapon. This tactic has become rampant amongst professions who suck at weapon skills. This detracts from one of the implied strengths of the enforcers and soldiers.

Without IPRs, a high level enforcer will always be able to use the best melee weapons in the game (by raising all the low-cost melee skills). Without IPRs, a high level soldier will always be able to use the best guns in the game (by raising all the low-cost ranged skills).

However, with IPRs, every profession can use the best weapons in the game. They don't have to raise multiple dark blue skills, they can just reset. POOF. They have the same adaptability of the strong weapon classes. And that ain't right. It's not fair to enforcers and soldiers. Then, when these people run out of IPRs, they start trying screaming for more.

The single IPRs were a good idea to help people adapt to an evolving game, and correct newbie catastrophes in IP-expenditure. But people have started using them for just farting around with the flavor of the week, and are taking them for granted. If 15 IPRs aren't enough, then 30 won't be enough, and then 45 won't be enough... where does it end?

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Hajkster
Actully all i can see thouse that are against it is that they are Well good and dont want anyone else get a chance to be it. They want easy targets and a ipr would make em jealous. Kinda greedy if i should say it. Thats really the only reason i can see it as.

So you find nothing valid for the argument that when the game becomes top heavy with too many "Well good" people, that Funcom has and will step in to rebalance the game, usually with a nerf?

Then if you can call me greedy, can I call you willfully ignorant? I'm pretty sure you know the arguments are valid and choose not to admit to them. Whether because you don't want to admit you might not be right about it. Or because you simply don't care what happens to everyone else so long as your desires are satisfied when you want them.

Besides, I can't be "greedy". I've already stated my characters will never be the best in anything even with IP reset points because I choose to have some skill in everything. My IP distribution guarantees that I can't max any skills because I invest in so many (skills I can raise 5 points, I raise 4 points. 4 Points, get 3 points, ect...).

[Blackwing]

it is not important how much damage a burst, or a crit or average hit does.

you have to see it in relation to damage over time.

when you could get a crit chance of roughly 30% easily with a crat speech and a ma buff and combine that with a scope you had a focus on extremely crit reliant weapons.

nowadays just by eliminating the ma buff this is no longer true.

a line of weapons stands and falls by the damage done over time, not by a lucky crit or full auto.

curmudgeon:

counter argument to 1:

online games are not static by their very nature. weapon switches usually require the resetting of more then 1 skill.

to 2:
profession specific gear is getting more common in ao. in fact apart from items where you have to shake your head and consider wether it was an accident it seems to be the norm.

most good pistols are advent only yet the kick and pop are not - wtf?

most good melee weapons are yet the queen blade is not - wtf?

say what you want against profession limited gear i think it is the only reasonable alternative to shape up the database.

[Hajkster]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


So you find nothing valid for the argument that when the game becomes top heavy with too many "Well good" people, that Funcom has and will step in to rebalance the game, usually with a nerf?

Then if you can call me greedy, can I call you willfully ignorant? I'm pretty sure you know the arguments are valid and choose not to admit to them. Whether because you don't want to admit you might not be right about it. Or because you simply don't care what happens to everyone else so long as your desires are satisfied when you want them.

Besides, I can't be "greedy". I've already stated my characters will never be the best in anything even with IP reset points because I choose to have some skill in everything. My IP distribution guarantees that I can't max any skills because I invest in so many (skills I can raise 5 points, I raise 4 points. 4 Points, get 3 points, ect...).

Call me whatever you want. Because your still greedy. Wanting to be the top dog and not let anyone else have the chance. And no.. Alowing someone else to have fun is not a valid reason. I dont get it what others do have to do with you? Nor any thing you have already said here change my opinion here because your either greedy or jelous if you even care about others.

Ok then let the others that could use a ipr use it and you get back to work on your char. Not do i go around in city saying what you can do or cant do i?

[Nursedaou]

I stated that I had used all 8 of my IPR after the full reset.

[Bima]

Originally posted by Hajkster
Call me whatever you want. Because your still greedy. Wanting to be the top dog and not let anyone else have the chance.

They have the chance.

They can either learn the system and do it right from the start, or they can get lucky and accidentally manage to do things pretty right, or they can reroll.

[Hajkster]

Hearing most of these comments makes me understand why there is so many self centered greedy people in AO.

[Bima]

Originally posted by Hajkster
Hearing most of these comments makes me understand why there is so many self centered greedy people in AO.

Dude, who in the world is this directed to?

I know several of the people here arguing against IPR are among the people who spend an awful lot of time and energy trying hard to help other players in many, many ways, from advice on how to make more powerful characters to explaining game mechanics to helping acquire items to putting them in touch with others who can provide services they cannot and so on. Maybe you should do some research into that before throwing about accusations of self-centeredness and greed.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Hajkster


Call me whatever you want. Because your still greedy. Wanting to be the top dog and not let anyone else have the chance. And no.. Alowing someone else to have fun is not a valid reason. I dont get it what others do have to do with you? Nor any thing you have already said here change my opinion here because your either greedy or jelous if you even care about others.

Ok then let the others that could use a ipr use it and you get back to work on your char. Not do i go around in city saying what you can do or cant do i?

To Hades with waiting for the flamethrower to cool down. I got pot holders.

Putting aside the damage it can do to the game for a moment. Putting aside the the increased difficulty for Funcom to deliver us new content for a moment. Putting aside the negating factors it has on other professions' advantages (which is an excellent point Curmudgeon brought in, desppite arguing with me tooth ian nail in another thread). Putting everything else aside, there remains 1 thing which you exmplify:

Indulging people makes them think they're entitled to everything.

Well, you're not entitled to anything except access to the servers. That's all anyone's $12.95 per month buys. After that, you have to earn it. And based on your statements, I don't think you're capable of earning it. Which is why you're demanding Funcom give it to you.

You can't put in the effort to develop a character capable of wielding a Maw of the Abyss, for example. So you want Funcom to give you a way to do so you can run around saying "Look! I got a Hellspinner". Yeah so fackin what? So can anyone with a credit card and an Ebay account.

You call other people jealous? You've got that backwards. They've got what you can't earn and it's eating you up inside. So you want it given to you. How can they be jealous of you? They've got what you want. Hell, I've got more than that. I've got that, plus every reset point I've earned so far. What should I be jealous of? You needing help to do what others can do by themselves?

Tell ya what. I'll support regular resets and additional IPR...in exchange for something:

Every time you use one, an item that's alway visible gets added to your mesh. We can start with pink booties. Next a rattle...Maybe a bib after that...

P.S.
Even after you're completely outfitted (with pink bonnet, a bottle and diapers), you still will be sucking reclaim terminal coolant vapor after you meet a real "top dog". Cause they'll have the knowledge you'll be lacking: how to be a real "top dog". You can't buy that on Ebay and wear it thanks to a reset point.

[Wildwal]

must.....ipr.....more!

[lilnymph]

Originally posted by Hajkster
Actully all i can see thouse that are against it is that they are Well good and dont want anyone else get a chance to be it. They want easy targets and a ipr would make em jealous. Kinda greedy if i should say it. Thats really the only reason i can see it as.

Come and have a look at my character sometime, or get someone to fight me in PvP sometime. You will find I am no where near uber. Why? because I live with my mistakes and hope someday they might be useful.

Going to be blunt in this paragraph, and it may look like a flame, but feel the need to vent, so bear with me . What you are saying is basically that stupid people who can't plan ahead, or show self control should be given the best of everything, but clever people who can plan ahead should get no reward for it?

see, told you it looked like a flame

There is no need for IPR, if you are careful, and if you dont follow every single fad of the month. You dont need to have the greatest gun on it this game to move forward so there is no NEED to have to change weapon LINES everytime funcom changes ONE weapon (possible exception MA's, but that is why we have 15 IPR'S )

Hajkster, I am failing to see your problem. Funcom gave you 15 Ipr's over the lifetime of your character to use AS YOU WISHED. Now I say the most sensible use for them, and the one funcom gave them for originally was to keep them for when funcom nerfs something major on your character. however you chose not to, and used them for other things and have had an advantage in the short term from doing so. Thats fine, hope you enjoyed being uber. Now you have to live with the consequences of your actions. I am sorry, but thats the way it is.

Hugs

lilnymph

[Zepher]

Bump!

Since all the recent changes I had to swap weapons all the time on most of my chars...

Which cost me IPR points... now Im out of IPR points and still things change... (aka nerfs)

[__________Curmudgeon]

Originally posted by Blackwing
curmudgeon:

counter argument to 1:

online games are not static by their very nature. weapon switches usually require the resetting of more then 1 skill.

to 2:
profession specific gear is getting more common in ao. in fact apart from items where you have to shake your head and consider wether it was an accident it seems to be the norm.

Blackwing, here's my counter-counter argument:

People seem to feel that "weapon switches" are a gawd-given right in this game. I disagree. If you are an enforcer and you go 2hb for most of your career, but then decide to go to 2he at 161st, you are quite capable of raising 2he over the next few levels to max it. IPRs were not introduced to this game so that people could switch weapon styles at will. Although it's inevitable that people will use them for exactly that.

Yes, the static skill system has already been FUBARed by IPRs. They are starting to put in more and more profession-specific and level-specific items, to cover the mess they made. If your static skill system is starting to dissolve, you have to prop it up with gear restrictions.

[Blackwing]

which came first?

the first profession specific and level capped items came around ... i dont know but hardly at a time where the iprs were an issue.

they came out because fixers and adventurers had problems at the time and the swords, pistols and the love armor was specifically limited to be used by advents and fixers only to boost these classes since they needed help.

i doubt iprs caused this - the designers might have also resigned and got to work on a realistic balance system.

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in a game if you want to open several effective weapon choices without making them class only you have to weigh the advantages and disadvantages.

availability is only a minor problem because online game designers regularly underestimate the determination shown by their playerbase - if it has stats they kill it, if there is a percentage that it drops they get it - period.

working from here what else do we have provided we do want weapons that really differ?
cost to train.

cost to train is a largely irrelevant factor late in the game because the system gives you enough ip to theoretically dabble in some tradeskills and personlise your character (maybe conceal and break and enter because you like thieves) so if so inclined you can pump them into a combat skill.

in the end it only matters if your skill is green or not because this determines the maximum cap.

then you have to factor in the nanos of the profession.

then you have to weigh all this in pvm, single and massive pvp and you have a nightmare on your hands.
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let us compare this head ache again to putting on a "class only" tag on something you intend for a specific class to help them fulfill their role...

still sure class only tags came because of ipr?

maybe the designers once had the noble goal of making a skill combined with a profession based system but gave up long ago because they realised that it was impossible to balance.

*edit: as to the weapon switches if people feel like it.
what can i say, i think people should be able to retrain their characters if they get a kick out of it. not everybody has the time or inclination to reroll and level another toon to 150+ to play again with his friends.
heck, some are just bored and screwing around.
you say this is not carefull planning and an arbitrary waste.
i do not think so.

in the end this is irrelevant - funcom will have to realize that people who experiment with their character are still p(l)aying while people forced to reroll are not necessarily doing that.

it is a business decision. asheron s call the king of stfu and reroll gimp games out there introduced essentially a 3 week single ipr quest (very doable and no hard camping) and might even introduce base skill changes (akin to switching the color of your attributes). why? because people are bored! they leave the game in droves because leveling another character to try a new toy or experience the game from a different perspective gets old.

there are only so many ways you can kill something which is what a different perspective usually means.

[lilnymph]

Blackwing, it doesn't matter if prof specific items originally came in because of IPR (they didn't, and as far as I know the first was the gamma smg ). What matters is the reason we are seeing more and more of them now. Up untill IPR you could count the number of them on 1 hand, now they are everywhere.

hugs

lilnymph

[Blackwing]

in my opinion we see them because funcom is trying to tune the classes now.

my basic argument is that ipr and class specific items are in no way related.

again we are at a deadlock. you cannot prove me wrong, neither can i prove you wrong.

*edit: gamma is i think not prof locked, neither is the custom reet so i am still unsure about the correct time frame they popped up*