BUMP for new complete IPR

[Hajkster]

Originally posted by Curmudgeon


People "put up that crap" as you put it because IPRs are not meant for you to change weapon types at will. IPRs should be reserved for changing your skills in response to changes in game mechanics, and should be hoarded (not blown on experimentation).

Thats your opinion. Why else did FC let me use the IPR's on thouse? They should have hindered me if it wasnt supposed to use it that way dont you think?

[lilnymph]

Originally posted by Hajkster


Thats your opinion. Why else did FC let me use the IPR's on thouse? They should have hindered me if it wasnt supposed to use it that way dont you think?

nope, its called responsibility, and living with the consequences. You where given 15 IPR, more than enough to fix any changes to the rules Funcom made. You chose to use them on something else. Live with it.

wow, that was harsh from me wasn't it

hugs

lilnymph

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Hajkster


Thats your opinion. Why else did FC let me use the IPR's on thouse? They should have hindered me if it wasnt supposed to use it that way dont you think?

They did hinder you. They let you use them until you ran out. I can't think of being more hindered than that

[___________Tangretti]

I say.. who cares what the other guy wants to do. Make full IPR available 24/7. If joeblow wants to reset and start over.. thats fine with me. It doesn't affect my character. This is a game after all... It should be providing enjoyment, and if IPR provides people with enjoyment of their character. I am all for it.

[Blackwing]

Originally posted by Kuroshio

Maybe my perspective if different because on my characters I chose a balanced character instead of a focused one. And therefore I automatically know I won't be the best damage dealer or best tradeskiller or best wrangler. But I'm not gimped either. I've got good all around characters, capable of doing several things to some degree. Despite wielding a bow and having tradeskills

in all honesty - very possible.

see, i dabble in 16 characters (2 accounts) and i can tell you that say enforcers, fixers, doctors and traders (coincidentally the mains of yazule, lil and you from what you post) have it comparatively easy and ARE hard to gimp.

compare that to say a soldier, nt or a pet class. or a ma who tries to find a way to remain viable in pvp and you will see a different picture ...

people spending time in these classes will blow some ipr on experimenting which weapon will help them remain competitive.

the problem is that if you have a one dimensional class as by definition alot of classes are your gear better be "teh win" in order to receive a team slot.

[___________Tangretti]

very true in that regard blackwing.. My ma has used all his resets searching weapons for pvp :P

I don't blame anyone.. and I don't care about getting more. But if the people want IPR.. I see no probs with it.

[lilnymph]

*smiles*so all are arguments are void because we decided to plan ahead, and are playing profs you have decided are "hard to gimp"?

I started playing a fixer when there was 1 viable smg. the MPS. Thats it. I looked around at what else could be used, but decided to go with smg, as I thought funcom would do something about it later. Other fixer experimented with other weapons, and we pooled our information. It was also very easy to gimp a fixer then by trying to be good at too many nano lines. However I was carefull and managed to avoid doing this.

Then GA fell into my lap (or actually was forced upon me hehe). Now I didn't have any points in MC at this point, so I had to spend 2 entire levels worth of IP putting that on, and I have felt the pinch ever since, however I have still never felt the need to us IPR, despite having alot of IP in trap disarm that I never use anymore, and alot in psychic I used to use for implants, but have since changed my implant scheme. I also have some in weapon smithing and EE (hmmm, wonder what they where for )

So I still say your arguments are not holding water with me, and are selfish ones of people who want to be uber.

hugs

lilnymph

[______________Yazule]

Originally posted by lilnymph


hehe our viewpoints never used to agree, but lately we seem to be seeing eye to eye.

*Hugs to cute Atrox Yazule*

lilnymph

/me blushes

[___________Tangretti]

from lilnymph

Then GA fell into my lap (or actually was forced upon me hehe). Now I didn't have any points in MC at this point, so I had to spend 2 entire levels worth of IP putting that on, and I have felt the pinch ever since, however I have still never felt the need to us IPR, despite having alot of IP in trap disarm that I never use anymore, and alot in psychic I used to use for implants, but have since changed my implant scheme. I also have some in weapon smithing and EE (hmmm, wonder what they where for )

No one forced you to put the GA on. No one told you that you had to spend IP in smg. I still don't see an argument for why you shouldn't have full IPR? If it is because you don't want others to be uber, that isn't an argument. If you are saying that you don't want to be uber, that I don't believe. Anyone who states that they made their character perfect from day 1 is full of it. We all made some IP mistakes along the way. If you play to lvl 200.. the IP mistakes dissappear. You can virtually max everything important by 190. Too many people try to relate this GAME to real life. A game will never be real life. So, I won't go there. One argument for a full IPR is the fact that when FC decides to change the statistics or formula's of a weapon that you have had for 150 levels.. it should only be fair that you get the opportunity to change your weapon to something equal to what they took out from under you. A game changing formula warrants an IPR. I personally feel what I stated above.. If people want it.. I see no probs with IPR. I don't have to IPR.. so it doesn't personally affect me.
We get individual IPR's now.. why not make it one full IPR per title.. you get 6 chances to change your character to adjust for the difference in the game at different levels. If you dont' use the one from the previous title.. it goes away.. they don't add up. No more individual IPR's just the full ones.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Tangretti
from lilnymph


No one forced you to put the GA on. No one told you that you had to spend IP in smg. I still don't see an argument for why you shouldn't have full IPR? If it is because you don't want others to be uber, that isn't an argument. If you are saying that you don't want to be uber, that I don't believe. Anyone who states that they made their character perfect from day 1 is full of it. We all made some IP mistakes along the way. If you play to lvl 200.. the IP mistakes dissappear. You can virtually max everything important by 190. Too many people try to relate this GAME to real life. A game will never be real life. So, I won't go there. One argument for a full IPR is the fact that when FC decides to change the statistics or formula's of a weapon that you have had for 150 levels.. it should only be fair that you get the opportunity to change your weapon to something equal to what they took out from under you. A game changing formula warrants an IPR. I personally feel what I stated above.. If people want it.. I see no probs with IPR. I don't have to IPR.. so it doesn't personally affect me.
We get individual IPR's now.. why not make it one full IPR per title.. you get 6 chances to change your character to adjust for the difference in the game at different levels. If you dont' use the one from the previous title.. it goes away.. they don't add up. No more individual IPR's just the full ones.

If Funcom changes the values of a specific weapon, are you out of choices for weapons? When Funcom nerfed crit scopes, did everyone using an ithaca suddenly find there were no more shotguns that didn't rely on crits?

And if you want to try and tell people they're full of it if they say they've not made mistakes with their characters, can I tell you your full of it if you try and claim you've used the same weapon for 150 levels? I've used bows with my trader only but not always the same bow. Play nice cause my flamethrower hasn't cooled off yet.

A full IPR per title would simply lead to people using the changes in playstyle that occur at title levels to min/max themselves into more uberness. And when that happens and the game gets top heavy in uber characters, a nerf comes that affects ALL players. Not just the uber ones.

Now from the personal level, if you want to be uber then you need to earn it. Funcom never said you get to have the most powerful character because you pay them. You've got to earn it. If you don't want to earn it, play a single player game with the cheat codes. That way you can turn God Mode on and get your jollies without me getting wrapped up in a nerf.

[Bima]

Originally posted by lilnymph
OK, I am still totally against Total IPR, and in most ways against one skill IPR, however at the moment the argument seems to be going round in circles (with my posts ignored *pouts* ).

However this is something that I dont have too much objection too, [...] some system to retrain skills you no longer need.

I'm not ignoring you, Lil.

I like this idea, because it is somewhat realistic to have unused skills deteriorate. One possibility would be to let the "reduce skill" buttons work not only on uncommitted spending of IP, but also a set amount per level. For example, you could do this as a set amount per level inversely to the way colours work for raising. For example, since a green skill represents something a person of a particular profession is innately good at, it should be harder to forget ... could only reduce it by 3 at one level. Your dark blue skills you could reduce by up to 5 at one level. The IP would be added back to your IP pool.

I would think this should be both non-cumulative (that is, you couldn't just drain out 100 points from dark blue skill because you saved up 20 levels of draining) and also would only be able to reclaim actual spent IP, not skill points derived from trickle-down.

I also have to agree with Kushiro that the "gimp" argument is a losing one. The fixation on uber perfection is really quite annoying, and yes other games DO require you to reroll if you want to be that way, contrary to what Zanthyna said. Take, for example, Deus Ex. The first time through I spent some skill points on being able to use Environment Suits (hazmat suits and the like). It turns out that with my play style, it was a skill I didn't need at all and would rather have spent my skill points some place else. If I wanted to experiment with a different approach, I had the means; replay it and make different choices.

And Tangretti, while I completely agree that this is not "real life" and that a game should make departures from real life to be enjoyable, I do not think you can completely ignore the relevance of real life to the equation. Too much suspension of disbelief runs you straight down the path of cognitive dissonance, which directly leads to a non-trivial portion of the population becoming unhappy because things plain just don't make sense.

[___________Tangretti]

True.. you do have some limited options.. if a weapon in the same stat range provides what was just taken away from you.

My opinion is that people can make themselves as uber as they want. I don't have any person vendetta against them. I am not playing their character, and vice versa. If they want to change their stats with the wind.. so be it. It doesn't change the way I play mine. The full IPR per title was a little bit of a sarcastic/over the top blend :P

FC gives us a chance to change specific stats as needed. I don't think you can argue that a game changing formula can't possibly be worthy of a one time full IPR. You can argue that recent crit changes and other changes are or aren't large enough to warrant one. To say that I don't like that person being uber is not an argument. Let's all stop worrying about the other guy and focus on ourselves. The grass is always greener on the other side.. until you focus on your grass. Recent changes in crit values for pvp might warrant an IPR.

BTW.. for 150 lvls i used a claw. So yes.. i did use the same weapon. My trader has used the same type of shottie this entire time. My enforcer has used the same native alloy/lead pipe combo. Allbeit they aren't 150 yet.. but I doubt that anything but my trader will change at 150. A trader is a bit unique.. they can self buff into any weapon that they can special skill themselves into.

Some people are so obsessed with this term uberness that it makes me want to vomit. I develop very good characters now. My first was a joke. So bad that he was deleted a long time ago. If for a min I agree and say that people shouldn't use IPR to change their character on a whim.. Then I would have to add that people that have just started their first character should be given an IPR when the start an account. Sure, If you stick with the character long enough.. you may be able to straighten any mistakes out. I think there are many levels of argument here. One, for people that get junked by FC when they make a rule change. Two, for those that are complete newb and have absolutely no idea what they are doing till it is too late. Three, for those that require the term "uber", those people that always need to be on top. IPR for the first set.. yes IPR for the second set.. yes IPR for the third set.. no. Unfortunately.. you can't say one person can have it and the other can't.

[___________Tangretti]

And Tangretti, while I completely agree that this is not "real life" and that a game should make departures from real life to be enjoyable, I do not think you can completely ignore the relevance of real life to the equation. Too much suspension of disbelief runs you straight down the path of cognitive dissonance, which directly leads to a non-trivial portion of the population becoming unhappy because things plain just don't make sense

made me smile

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Tangretti
True.. you do have some limited options.. if a weapon in the same stat range provides what was just taken away from you.

My opinion is that people can make themselves as uber as they want. I don't have any person vendetta against them. I am not playing their character, and vice versa. If they want to change their stats with the wind.. so be it. It doesn't change the way I play mine. The full IPR per title was a little bit of a sarcastic/over the top blend :P

FC gives us a chance to change specific stats as needed. I don't think you can argue that a game changing formula can't possibly be worthy of a one time full IPR. You can argue that recent crit changes and other changes are or aren't large enough to warrant one. To say that I don't like that person being uber is not an argument. Let's all stop worrying about the other guy and focus on ourselves. The grass is always greener on the other side.. until you focus on your grass. Recent changes in crit values for pvp might warrant an IPR.

The recent crit changes don't warrent one. Sorry but if everyone's chance to crit was reduced equally why is that crit scope now so horrible? You still have a higher crit chance than a person without one or with one of a lower QL. It's all perceptual.

Originally posted by Tangretti
Some people are so obsessed with this term uberness that it makes me want to vomit. I develop very good characters now. My first was a joke. So bad that he was deleted a long time ago. If for a min I agree and say that people shouldn't use IPR to change their character on a whim.. Then I would have to add that people that have just started their first character should be given an IPR when the start an account. Sure, If you stick with the character long enough.. you may be able to straighten any mistakes out. I think there are many levels of argument here. One, for people that get junked by FC when they make a rule change. Two, for those that are complete newb and have absolutely no idea what they are doing till it is too late. Three, for those that require the term "uber", those people that always need to be on top. IPR for the first set.. yes IPR for the second set.. yes IPR for the third set.. no. Unfortunately.. you can't say one person can have it and the other can't.

It's not an obsssion with the term "uberness" on my part, I can guarantee that. I know enough about AO to do whatever I please for the most part. Or know where to look to find out what I don't know.

It's the thing you're ignoring: what happens when everyone is "uber". The game gets top heavy and Funcom has to balance that fact out else the content becomes too easy. If a large enough part of the playerbase is the "Best" Funcom will alter the difficulty of things to reflect their ability. Mob difficulty goes up. Or an ability gets nerfed. Or an item gets nerfed. In attempts to prevent too many people from becoming the "Best", the make things even more difficult by drastically limiting the access to the items that make those people the best. By making the drops rare. Or making the mobs that drop them rare. Or by making the mobs that drop them extremely difficult to kill. All the things people hate

Your way, easy changing of skills, makes the determining factor of "Uber" in what items a person has. The skills that person invested in during their character development don't matter. Items are the determining factor and they're far easier to aquire. At that point, the only way to limit the number of people that are the "Uber" is by striking at the items. Which Funcom, and every developer, will do in an eyeblink to make sure the game meets their expectations.

[___________Tangretti]

I never said I was for it.. Just not against it.. lol

If everyone were uber... how could it be top heavy?
everyone would be the same.... much like now.. at least above 180 or so. the only thing limiting the pvp play of players above that lvl are nano's and certain skill caps.. hp and such. everyone at that lvl has uber weapons..

how bout an full 24/7 IPR at lvl 190 so everyone can change with the wind.. they deserve it

on second thought.. everyone would be changing back and forth from tradeskills.. to weapons.. and back again...

I am against any full 24/7 IPR

on third thought.. i wouldn't mind them bumping the number of IPR's you can have at each title.

[lilnymph]

Tangretti, do you know why the mobs in the game hit so hard, and have so many HP's? its because too many of the player base inthe past where majorly overequiping, and nothing could challange them. THAT is what happens when everyone is "uber"

hugs

lilnymph

[___________Tangretti]

One problem my ma had when trying to find a weapon was.. not knowing how much IP i would have when i reset a skill.. and what my cap at a certain weapon skill with that much IP would be. The only way to find out was to use a couple resets and test each weapon skill.

To get enough IP.. I had to reset 3 ma attack skills.. MA, brawl, and i reset dimach as well.. also reset my phys init. that was 4 IPR's gone.. then i had to determine which weapon would benefit the most from the IP i had, keeping in mind that I would have to bump ranged or melee init also. at the lvl i am at.. fairly lowbie 165.. I couldn't get any single skill high enough to use a decently high ql weapon for my level. I then poured my IP back into the skills i just reset.

Having some accurate program or some other way of determining how much IP and what caps you have in certain weapon skill would have saved me 4 reset points.

I didn't lose any sleep over it. I should have plenty resets left when or if i decide to level to 190 and beyond.

[___________Tangretti]

I like hard hitting mobs.. teaming at my level is too easy.
specially regular missions..

[_____________Poachie]

Zebox the engineer is sad, got broke and missed out the last reset, came back too late :/

*bump*

Leaving an 131 Engineer behind wasn't fun at all...

[Blackwing]

Originally posted by lilnymph
*smiles*so all are arguments are void because we decided to plan ahead, and are playing profs you have decided are "hard to gimp"?

I started playing a fixer when there was 1 viable smg. the MPS. Thats it. I looked around at what else could be used, but decided to go with smg, as I thought funcom would do something about it later. Other fixer experimented with other weapons, and we pooled our information. It was also very easy to gimp a fixer then by trying to be good at too many nano lines. However I was carefull and managed to avoid doing this.
So I still say your arguments are not holding water with me, and are selfish ones of people who want to be uber.

hugs

lilnymph

you know as well as i that back then fixers branched off into different weapons or abandoned the class.

i was there when the fixer was in the state pet professions are now in - to only be taken into a team when there was nobody else around - furthermore at the moment fixers were über gimps you and i were to little to have hit the wall at full tilt branching into different options about making the character viable while some others went to dual wield, used ithacas or novas etc.

edit: lastly not everybody is like you and me leveling slowly or spending time on lots of chars and wants to wait out the time it takes funcom to fix their favorite toon - remember the fixer exodus around 2 months before the love patch hit?

to call people who want either a full ipr regularly or more access to individual ipr points selfish is a cheap shot indeed.

of course the arguments are moving in circles. everything that needs to be said was said several THREADS not POSTS ago.

yet as long as we do not see an indication as to how reskilling can be handled in the future you will see more and more of these threads.


as to kuro and the point about the weapon options:

certainly you will find shotguns that are not crit dependant. at the moment 2 - and you will find at least one weapon in every weapon category that does ok in pvm without being crit reliant.

true this is alot better then at launch.

but still, would it not be great if fast, crit reliant weapons were a viable alternative? some folks like to push alot of buttons when tanking because its their style of play. with the critnerf it was natural that they went around looking for other weapons imo.