BUMP for new complete IPR

[Hajkster]

Originally posted by Bima
Ok. I understand.

Please realize that mostly this hasn't been about taking away any freedoms with existing IPR, it has been arguments against giving a new complete IPR, a freedom which doesn't currently exist.

Yea but when someone is against both IPR's you work for (according to the logic anyway) and full iprs that you work for :P thats just selfishness. I just dont get it. What do anyone else have to with my charater?

[BlockAndLode]

I do da bump and fix it wif my screwdwivah and den i smash its wif mah hamma! Oooo...me gonna ad a bit o dis and a bit o dat and...ooo WHAMMo we gotz us a ballerina bot who dance all day long stuck in wall and den smack joo like you wuz nubi not leet wif da whammo yes!!!


Hi...




O_o

[_________LucidTrance]

Major Bump for ipr's

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Hajkster


Yea but when someone is against both IPR's you work for (according to the logic anyway) and full iprs that you work for :P thats just selfishness. I just dont get it. What do anyone else have to with my charater?

What IPR you worked for? You've run out of those. And what full ipr you worked for? According to the last statement made by Gaute, another Complete Reset won't happen while he's Game Director

If you were playing this game completely by yourself, you wouldn't have an effect on anyone's character at all. But you're not playing this game by yourself. When Funcom looks at the game, they don't see your character. They don't see my character. They don't see individual characters at all. What they see are numbers.

They see X number of people wielding Manex Catastrophes. X number of people wearing Omni-Pol Elite. Average length of a fight lasting X amount of seconds. X number of credits in the game. X number of levels gained over Y amount of time. And that's what they base their decisions from.

Now if they see large numbers of people doing too well for their tastes, they begin looking for what those people have in common. What they have in common is usually the cause of them doing too well. If the situation merits it, they nerf what those people have in common. Too many people killing medusas? Nerf the spawn rate. Too many people levelling from cyborgs? Nerf the exp amount. Too many people scoring critical hits? Nerf the effectiveness of the item. Still too many people scoring critical hits? Nerf the nanos that allow them to increase critical hit chances.

How does IPR affect this? Simple. By making it easy for people to switch skills, IPR accelerates how quickly things become unbalanced. IPR allows people to switch instantly instead of taking time to gain the IP necessary to switch weapons. So a situation goes from non-existant to disaster as quickly as it takes for the items to get into mainstream distribution. And on most items, that amount of time is extremely small. Which leaves Funcom little choice but to take drastic actions to protect the game's balance. AKA: Nerf Something.

If it took people more time to switch skills, Funcom would have more time to react and possibly plan out a better strategy to deal with the situation. If they resort to an item nerf it would still affect less people because many people would not have had the time to switch yet. They would also have the time to create more equivalent items in other weapon types to try and balance things out (because each weapon type has its advantages and disadvantages). But they don't get that type of time so they have to nerf it.

Now I'm pretty sure you're just going to come back and say "There's no relation between the two! What my character does has no effect on you!". But that's horsecrap and people know that. I think you know it as well.

But ultimately, I'm not replying to you at all. Cz and crew posted a long time ago about how they take a digest of the threads to the developers, since the developers would never have enough time to read every thread and work on the game. So they compile a digest of the arguments given on both sides for the developers to read. My replies are to the developers that read those digests(though the flames I might throw are always straight to the target). My hope is that they see their own thoughts in those replies before they do something. And in a thread like this one, where the majority of the replies are "Bump" and nothing more, how many of those 1 or 2 word replies do you think are going to make a digest like that? And how many of the replies where people try to sit down and explain their reasons, regardless of which side of the issue they take, will make that same digest?

So whether you get it or not...Whether you want to admit it or not...So long as your only response is "I want it" (and that's exactly what your arguments boil down to), people like myself and Yazule and Lilnymph and Curmudgeon have a chance to keep you from shooting everyone in the foot. I don't care if you blow your own Nikes off, fuggering up your character hopping from skill set to skill set. But there's too much evidence of how things can happen to prove that you're hitting everyone as well.

You want more IPR?
EARN IT

[Blackwing]

about item and class nerfs is the pvp duel i wanna beat everyone crowd.

ergo saying that something like item availability would stop those threads is false.

thus the whole argument against iprs given by the call for nerf that switching to top flavor weapons would bring is without a base as well.

[Kzat]

Kuroshio:

Please tell me how my character affects yours by getting more ipr points or even a complete ipr.

Let's see. You say I can easily switch to the next best weapon after they nerf the current flavor of the month.

I see.

This makes so much sense.

I'm sorry if some people do not enjoy playing the martyr. I'm sorry if we can not all be as self righteous as you. I'm sorry that some of us play this game for our enjoyment.

Now, I could be like you. I could see other people having fun and be a sourpuss about it because I choose one set path for my character and by golly, I'm sticking with it because it is just a SIN to change my mind. And by jeeves, how embarassing would it be for me to step off my little soap box and change my skill tree around to remain an effective <insert whatever it is you enjoy doing in this game> machine. Oh, and let us not forget that it is those evil gnomes running around having fun that forces game nerfs down our throats. Boo hooo hoo.

Obviously if you had unlimited ipr this game would be a tad boring. There would be zero character building. But I fail to see what gaining more ipr over time has anything to do with that. Gain more ipr over time. Have unlimited ipr right now. Hrm. Nope, I fail to see the relationship.

You feel that ipr forces nerfs down our throats at a faster rate. This sounds like blaming the gun for killing someone instead of the person. Newsflash. If the game developers let out some of their pride just a tad and actually attempted to be objective about their work, you would not have these 'items' etc that cause such drastic nerfages in the first place.

The situation is really simple. There is no need to complicate things. IPR and what a person chooses to do with them affects them. It only affects you because you're the center of the universe. Joy.

Mr. Neverhappyman: 'That bastard over there and over there and over here. They are always ruining my life. I wish they were all dead! Obviously everything they do ruins my life!'

Mr. Happyman: 'Eh, whatever dork.' *Goes back to having fun.*

Anyways, this is a very old idea. (Well, sort of. Slightly modified to take in to the account that there actually is ipr now.) Level 200s should have some available game mechanic to allow them to gain more ipr. 'Just level' is not a valid response to their stance on game staleness. Character development stopping at level 200? Or rather stopping after you've used up all your finite ipr? Where's the continuity in that?

[Spluggorth]

Originally posted by Mharc
I do agree we should be able to earn more IPR points (as we were promised, btw), but they should be rather hard to get.
I don't agree we should get another full IPR.


People are calling for full IPR's on the grounds that the rules have changed. I don't believe they have changed so much as to warrant the resetting of several dozens of skills, especially not in light of the 15 points you already get over the course of your career. If full IPRs were available on a regular basis (as someone suggested), mistakes would have no consequence.

Agreed! make quests where you get like 1-3 ipr points

do NOT give full ipr, no changes has been done that drasticly latery that would warrant one.
what fun woulud this game if you could just go do full iprs all the time...booooooooring

[Blackwing]

i do not care wether they implement bi annual full iprs or monthly single ipr quests - the only thing i want is the opportunity for established characters to fight entropy.

i would immediatly stop fighting for both complete and single ipr if a balanced quest doable by a single char without camping your ass off with a moderate (say 3-6 weeks real time) repetition timer were put in.

this would prevent bandwagoning and thoughtless resetting but allow you to adjust your character to the game changes.

[Kuro]

Well at least this is a more adultish flame. It's not the "You poopoo head" level Hajkster throws. It's about to the 80s teenage "You dork" level.

Originally posted by Kzat
Kuroshio:

Please tell me how my character affects yours by getting more ipr points or even a complete ipr.

Let's see. You say I can easily switch to the next best weapon after they nerf the current flavor of the month.

I see.

This makes so much sense.

I'm sorry if some people do not enjoy playing the martyr. I'm sorry if we can not all be as self righteous as you. I'm sorry that some of us play this game for our enjoyment.

You don't get it do you? In multiple ways on top of it. You say "...I can switch to the next best weapon..." like that option is only availible to you. It's not in your scenario. You're demanind freebies given to everyone. You follow with "...after they nerf the current flavor of the month". Seems to me you've noticed the pattern of their actions I've been trying to point out. Then you attempt to flame me for because I don't want to have to switch out of my chosen skillset because people forced a nerf. It seems you're saying you prefer getting regular nerfs so long as you can switch skills easily to avoid them.

That makes plenty of sense...So long as you view things only from the self centered perspective you take. But there are people in the game that didn't choose a specific weapon and instead chose a specific skill set. They don't want to switch their skills because of nerfs. Most people with a brain agree nerfing anything is a bad thing. Being able to avoid the consequences of a nerf doesn't make it any better.

Originally posted by Kzat
Now, I could be like you. I could see other people having fun and be a sourpuss about it because I choose one set path for my character and by golly, I'm sticking with it because it is just a SIN to change my mind. And by jeeves, how embarassing would it be for me to step off my little soap box and change my skill tree around to remain an effective <insert whatever it is you enjoy doing in this game> machine. Oh, and let us not forget that it is those evil gnomes running around having fun that forces game nerfs down our throats. Boo hooo hoo.

You sarcasm is underwhelming. And highly inaccurate to boot. I wouldn't be playing if I wasn't having fun. And I can easily bet I have a helluva lot more fun than you. My focus is on the skills instead of the items which allows me to avoid a ton of the pain you'll be *****ing about.

Originally posted by Kzat
Obviously if you had unlimited ipr this game would be a tad boring. There would be zero character building. But I fail to see what gaining more ipr over time has anything to do with that. Gain more ipr over time. Have unlimited ipr right now. Hrm. Nope, I fail to see the relationship.

You also fail basic reading comprehension.

You want more IPR?
EARN IT
[/b]

My argument isn't with you so long as you say gaining more IPR over time. Hajkster and others however feel they should be given it.

Now if you want a complete reset, we do have an issue. Because complete resets potentially cause a massive immediate imbalance as everyone jumps to the current flavor of the month at the same time. Which almost guarantees a nerf shortly after as the large influx of people exxagerates the effect of better weapon/skill sets.

Originally posted by Kzat
You feel that ipr forces nerfs down our throats at a faster rate. This sounds like blaming the gun for killing someone instead of the person. Newsflash. If the game developers let out some of their pride just a tad and actually attempted to be objective about their work, you would not have these 'items' etc that cause such drastic nerfages in the first place.

I'd flame you like I got flamed when I used the term "Newflash" but that would delay me from pointing out something:
Are you saying that every weapon, every item, every ability should be the same? That there should be nothing that is clearly superior to other items? Because short of putting the item on an 18 hour spawn mob with a 2% drop chance and a level limit on the item, Funcom has no way to implement a superior item. Because they can't rely on people lacking the skill to use it with complete IPR. Where will you be if Funcom, for example, nerfs the Queen Blade's drop rate with your 2he nanomage enforcer because so many enforcers are using it? Right back here complaining about the nerf.

Originally posted by Kzat
The situation is really simple. There is no need to complicate things. IPR and what a person chooses to do with them affects them. It only affects you because you're the center of the universe. Joy.

Mr. Neverhappyman: 'That bastard over there and over there and over here. They are always ruining my life. I wish they were all dead! Obviously everything they do ruins my life!'

Mr. Happyman: 'Eh, whatever dork.' *Goes back to having fun.*

Damn...that's what I get for skimming obvious flame portions of a post. You did resort to the 80s teen angst insult level.

Originally posted by Kzat
Anyways, this is a very old idea. (Well, sort of. Slightly modified to take in to the account that there actually is ipr now.) Level 200s should have some available game mechanic to allow them to gain more ipr. 'Just level' is not a valid response to their stance on game staleness. Character development stopping at level 200? Or rather stopping after you've used up all your finite ipr? Where's the continuity in that?

Yes it's an old idea. Cause I advocated that a long time ago myself. But they're not the biggest proponents of a complete IPR (or just want it for themselves which I have no issue with since they really can't unbalance a whole lot with their numbers).

[Blackwing]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


You don't get it do you? In multiple ways on top of it. You say "...I can switch to the next best weapon..." like that option is only availible to you. It's not in your scenario. You're demanind freebies given to everyone. You follow with "...after they nerf the current flavor of the month". Seems to me you've noticed the pattern of their actions I've been trying to point out.

the problem of über weapons would not exist if the database would have been brought up to speed and the useless junk that clutters 70-90% of it been deleted.

the problem of people flocking to several new content weapons has nothing to do with ipr.

My argument isn't with you so long as you say gaining more IPR over time. Hajkster and others however feel they should be given it.

likely you are talking about the iprs you gain when reaching a title level - these are limited. in case you have no beef with adding quests for iprs then lets move to the next argument.

Now if you want a complete reset, we do have an issue. Because complete resets potentially cause a massive immediate imbalance as everyone jumps to the current flavor of the month at the same time. Which almost guarantees a nerf shortly after as the large influx of people exxagerates the effect of better weapon/skill sets.

remember that nerfs are also influenced by the forums. and the people who cry for nerfs are pvpers.

and pvpers take every effort to get their character into top gear.
availability of an item is no issue for them.

this counters your next argument as well.

Are you saying that every weapon, every item, every ability should be the same? That there should be nothing that is clearly superior to other items? Because short of putting the item on an 18 hour spawn mob with a 2% drop chance and a level limit on the item, Funcom has no way to implement a superior item. Because they can't rely on people lacking the skill to use it with complete IPR. Where will you be if Funcom, for example, nerfs the Queen Blade's drop rate with your 2he nanomage enforcer because so many enforcers are using it? Right back here complaining about the nerf.

now now personal opinion as to why we can argue forever:

Yes it's an old idea. Cause I advocated that a long time ago myself. But they're not the biggest proponents of a complete IPR (or just want it for themselves which I have no issue with since they really can't unbalance a whole lot with their numbers).

i think the main problem why you will debate this until the servers go down is because you do not adhere to your own advice.

you do not want people to take themselves to seriously yet i cannot help but notice that the word "i" is the most important one in your arguments.

you take the stance that you and only you (well perhaps a couple of people who support you) know what is best for the game and how a game has to be run.

the idea for individual iprs is not yours.

you do not work for funcom.

you do not know why they nerf.

you do not know what is best for this game.

your views are not inherently more logical then those of your opponents.

attitude cannot replace arguments.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Blackwing


the problem of über weapons would not exist if the database would have been brought up to speed and the useless junk that clutters 70-90% of it been deleted.

A lot of the original weapons from release are perfectly viable. Kzat, for example, was given the advice to use a longmoon at a certain level for his 2he enforcer. Longmoons have been in since beta. Maussers, Vektors, SA Home Defenders Beams... I think it was you that said it yourself there is a viable weapon in most every skillset (bows are still a little light).

Originally posted by Blackwing

the problem of people flocking to several new content weapons has nothing to do with ipr.

If they didn't have the IPR to switch with what do they have to do? Take the time to earn the IP necessary to use it. If the rate in which people switch is better controlled then the imbalances wouldn't be so drastic.

Originally posted by Blackwing

likely you are talking about the iprs you gain when reaching a title level - these are limited. in case you have no beef with adding quests for iprs then lets move to the next argument.

By beef with a quest would be the normal issues that popup with all the quests in AO: Camping, arguing over spawns, repetitiveness. I suggested to simply make it a machine that requires XP and credits.

Originally posted by Blackwing

remember that nerfs are also influenced by the forums. and the people who cry for nerfs are pvpers.

and pvpers take every effort to get their character into top gear.
availability of an item is no issue for them.

this counters your next argument as well.

These forums seem to influence a lot but its obviously not as important as you think. If these forums were the defining factor of Funcom's actions Superslag would have been given his name back, there'd be IPR everywhere and ingame apartments could prolly be sublet as discos.

Hardcore PvPers do influence nerfs. I've got a hardcore attitude when it comes to PvP as seen in many threads, but PvP isn't the majority of the time I spend in AO. Its very much the minority. So I don't gimp myself angling for PvP weapons that remove my PvM capacity.

But easy access to IPR plays right into the PvPers hands you just said are influencing the nerfs.

Originally posted by Blackwing

now now personal opinion as to why we can argue forever:

Yes, but nobody I've seen on these forums are capable of changing my personal opinions. Most people here don't have the stamina need to change my personal opinion. Not that I'm immovable on an opinion. It's just I don't listen to people that resort to flaming when they feel they get cornered.

Originally posted by Blackwing

i think the main problem why you will debate this until the servers go down is because you do not adhere to your own advice.

you do not want people to take themselves to seriously yet i cannot help but notice that the word "i" is the most important one in your arguments.

you take the stance that you and only you (well perhaps a couple of people who support you) know what is best for the game and how a game has to be run.

I'm representing my opinion. Would you prefer I use the royal "We"? Okay.

We do not take ourselves as seriously as someone like Sanskrit, who will pitch a fit over something that can't be prevented or even confirmed is taking place. Baseless accusations of dishonorable deeds (and they are baseless without concrete evidence) is trivial. But We are capable of being serious in the face of a serious issue, despite the fact that We have been poking fun at you throughout this entire paragraph

My stance is looking out for the game. The fact that I get some personal benefit is just extra. But how many people advocating this have responded with the equivalent of "I don't care what it does"? Or flat out said "I don't care". Shoot me but I do like playing AO and I'm not looking forward to SWG or any of the half dozen games coming out (in fact the only MMOG I am looking forward to is so far away from games like AO/AC2/SWG, they're in totally different dimensions).

Originally posted by Blackwing
the idea for individual iprs is not yours.

you do not work for funcom.

you do not know why they nerf.

you do not know what is best for this game.

your views are not inherently more logical then those of your opponents.

attitude cannot replace arguments.

No the idea for individual iprs is not mine. And I have no idea where you're going with it.

No I do not work for Funcom. I don't work for Microsoft either but I do know a few things about their software.

No I cannot be 100% certain why Funcom nerfs. I can see the similiarities between their actions and my own when I did program for games.

No I cannot be 100% certain what I think is best for the game. At least I'm trying to look out for the game and not my own personal self-interest all the time.

...Hmm...I'll go with "yes, my views are inherently more logical than those of most of my opponents". Most of the people around here flame or provide "Because I want it" as the foundations of their arguments.

Like the attitude you've given me in several different threads? With your attempts to bait me into an argument with you? Yah... Pot - Kettle...What should one not be calling the other?

[______________Yazule]

Originally posted by Hajkster


It's not me crying that i dont want anymore IPR's... cryer.

actually, this thread is titled "bump for new complete IPR", so anyone writing about wanting IPR is here "crying" for more. I have been around long enough to know that funcom actually listens to the crap people say here on the boards, so when I see some thing silly *like a full IPR request* it makes me queasy with thoughts of all the "uber dude clones" I will be sieing in the future, and all the people getting back their trickle down skills etc, and the number of nerfs it will cause making people start another thread like this.

I am here defending sanity, and telling it the way I see it. If there is no opposing voice funcom will cave in... they are wishy washy, I am trying to be a stiffener to their backbone.

[Doctorlezz]

And yet another bump !

[Hajkster]

Originally posted by Kuroshio
You want more IPR?
EARN IT

Have i ever said in this thread i dont want to work for getting a ipr? Please do tell me were in that case.

And the rest of your thinking is still wrong. They dont nerf things that way. You have played this game far to little or any mmorpg at all if you belive that.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Hajkster


Have i ever said in this thread i dont want to work for getting a ipr? Please do tell me were in that case.

And the rest of your thinking is still wrong. They dont nerf things that way. You have played this game far to little or any mmorpg at all if you belive that.

ROFL...I've been playing this MMORPG since release. And was coding on muds (the nongraphical versions of these games) from 1990 - 1994. That's exactly why we'd nerf an item or skill. Imbalances caused by too many people using an item or skill.

If an item or ability is overpowered, the options concerning what to do about it are very very limited. Obviously nerfing is one of them. Increasing the difficulty at the levels where the items/abilities exist is another one. Limiting the distribution of the item/abilities is another way. Limiting the people that can use them is the last one.

Nerfing is extremely effective. But obviously players hate nerfs a lot. See every argument concerning a nerf for proof of that.

Increasing the difficulty at the levels where the items/abilities exists takes time. And it carries with it the side effect of making things more difficult for the people without the items. Players don't like that. See arguments concerning mob difficulty for proof of how much we dislike it.

Limiting the distribution of the item/or ability is difficult. A player that wants an item bad enough will get that item in some manner. The most you can do is dissuade people from getting the items by making them extremely difficult to aquire. Players don't like that. See arguments concerning spawn rates and drop chances for proof of how much we dislike that.

Limiting the people that can use the item is the least painful way to keep a game balanced. People can accept not having the skill to use an item/ability far better than they can accept getting nerfed, having the item nearly impossible to get or having the game difficulty boosted to stay on par with those items. But IPR negates that because anyone with enough IPR can become an instant expert in any skill set.

So what do you suggest the game developers do? I'm dying to hear this one. Not release new, better items than the ones currently in the game? Then why would people keep playing without a goal to achieve? I'm all ears here Hajkster. Since my thinking is wrong, you explain what you think is going on.

[Arinova]

B U M P

YaY

[Yakuza]

Originally posted by Yazule
so when I see some thing silly *like a full IPR request* it makes me queasy with thoughts of all the "uber dude clones" I will be sieing in the future,

Heh...IPR isn't what causes 'uber dude clones', what causes it is FC putting in so few viable weapons for each profession that people have to use these in order to compete...If they put in several different VIABLE weapons for each prof then you wouldn't see 5000 people using QB/Manex etc...

[lilnymph]

There ARE several viable weapons, but there will always be one that is better, and everyone will use that instead of anything else. Look at the threads about the new agent rifle. no one is going to use it because it is only as good as the present best rifle, not better.

Hugs

lilnymph

[Hajkster]

Originally posted by Kuroshio
So what do you suggest the game developers do? I'm dying to hear this one. Not release new, better items than the ones currently in the game? Then why would people keep playing without a goal to achieve? I'm all ears here Hajkster. Since my thinking is wrong, you explain what you think is going on.

With comments like this i guess you havent played mmorpg's anyway. In AO you need to level. Get the Equipment. That IS two goals. Or is it something im missunderstanding that your trying to say? This game is in movement all the time. So should we. Why is that so hard to understand? As you said yourself, this isnt a dungeon crawl. Try to understand that yourself.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Hajkster


With comments like this i guess you havent played mmorpg's anyway. In AO you need to level. Get the Equipment. That IS two goals. Or is it something im missunderstanding that your trying to say? This game is in movement all the time. So should we. Why is that so hard to understand? As you said yourself, this isnt a dungeon crawl. Try to understand that yourself.

First off, you didn't asnwer the question asked. The question wasn't "What is the game about?". THe question was "What do you suggest the developers do to keep the game playable and balanced?". So can you answer that question?

Second, I'm pretty positive I've been playing these types of games longer than you have. I had my copy of UO 2 days before release thanks to a friend that worked at CompUSA. And I played on LPMUDs from 1989+ before that. Beta AC 0. Was accepted for EQ beta but was moving at the time. Beta AO Phase 2. Beta E&B. Currently in beta for a couple games whose NDAs prevent me from saying much of anything. So I'd try another tack if I were you.

3rd, the game you just described focuses everything on the items a player has. That is a dungeon crawl, not a RPG. In a RPG, the focus is on the skills the character possesses. In a dungeon crawl the focus is on the items the character has. You ware the one that wants to play a dungeon crawl.