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Thread: Buffing ruining low and mid level PvP - Please at least consider a fix

  1. #41
    Originally posted by Dudicas
    Hey betatesters, can we say we told them so yet?

    We ALL knew it would come to this eventually. We tried to tell them they were just pushing it here faster when they put level restrictions on buffing and healing in the LC areas. Punishing the defenders by not letting them buff inside their bases while allowing the attackers all the time in the world to organise and get buffed by their level 200 mains.
    After another week or two of these threads I'm going to link to the original Cz thread on buffing/healing in my signature.

    The link is going to be labeled, "I told you so!"
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
    The Doctor Guide to: Notum Wars Martial Arts Perks! Nano Controller Units
    The General Guide to: Auto-Combat General Perks

    Visit the Roses and check out the shops in our City, NE of ICC at 4500x1500 in Andromeda!

    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  2. #42
    Originally posted by Dreamr
    Yes, it's a big joke. It should not be possible for level 25-30 characters to have that much NCU to hold all of their buffs, plus the buffs from all of their high level characters.

    Well there used to be an exploit with the comp lit tutor that allowed a low level to use it endlessly and eventually put in lv 200 NCU modules. I dont' remember anybody getting banned for it after it was fixed... /me wonder how many twinks with lv 200 NCU modules were parked and recently brought out of storage.....

    ~aqua
    Kappen Token Trader of Project EDEN LV 217 mind numbing grinding since 1948 well it just seems that long!!!!!

    Playing a Trader is like cyber S&M

    ---------
    "if you dont die in mass pvp your not doing it right"

  3. #43
    Originally posted by Aqua


    Well there used to be an exploit with the comp lit tutor that allowed a low level to use it endlessly and eventually put in lv 200 NCU modules. I dont' remember anybody getting banned for it after it was fixed... /me wonder how many twinks with lv 200 NCU modules were parked and recently brought out of storage.....

    ~aqua
    Well he are talking about Nordic Fusions twinks here... And I can just say that they are all created within the last 3 weeks, none of them have used the tutor bug or the old treatment stacking, or got buffed from traders from the time that was possible... Our twinks er 3 weeks old, and they are twinked on a legal way... No need to flame my guild and call us exploiters for this...
    Jamesdum President of Ragnarok
    Jamespond Member of Ragnarok
    Jamespond2 Member of Ragnarok

    Want to join Ragnarok?

    Quote on BrutalThug
    Because we have spy's in EVERYONE's guild so we can plan the attack while you sleep !! yeah ! hmm we clearly need to rename the guild to "nordic echelon"

  4. #44

    a few facts:

    the character i used was not made with pvp in mind and i had no trouble to get a 5 slot belt on her.

    her ncu is around 140-160 i dont know by heart right now.

    you could go alot higher if searching for the perfect ql ncu which i did not.

    you could go higher then ql 80 comp lit implants which i did not do.

    you could spend more ip into comp lit and not raise break and entry and map navi if you were in for pvp which i did not do.

    and finally you do not need the top of the line buffs to give a semi twinked 30-50 char a new one, the second or third highest will suffice handily.

    so in short:
    a fixer can push you at least 60 more ncu thus if you have all the time in the world to prepare an attack your ncu will be around 200 with ZERO EFFORT.

    and 200 ncu is alot. certainly enough for a big bad essence, hot, runbuff and reflect.

    and what else do you need?

    do not automatically assume these chars are old twinks.

    saying so only makes this sound like cheap whining and is contraproductive. it is also imo besides the point.
    sept 03 - the day ao was keeled by sl.

    gone now. byebye.

  5. #45
    Originally posted by Jynne
    After another week or two of these threads I'm going to link to the original Cz thread on buffing/healing in my signature.

    The link is going to be labeled, "I told you so!"
    I actually originally typed, Hey Jynne, can we say I told ya so yet?

    Then I realised that it went further back than just the buffing discussion that we adamantly argued against and were slapped with the big /ignore by the devs. It went all the way back to the discussions in the NW beta forum where we were slapped with the big /ignore by the devs. I just wish those forums were still public and I could link to the pvp questions that were asked by the devs and then they went ahead and did the opposite of what we answered them with.

  6. #46
    You all know what the solution will be. Level req on the belts. Good or bad? It sure would make life harder for the twink, bud it would make things much much harder for the non-twink.

    Again, there is no possible objective way to tell the diffrence between the twink and the gimp. There is not a black and white thing here, it also come with the shades in between. All a fix will do is move the black part down a bit, and the you get people screaming nerf the black en d more

  7. #47

    hard limiting belts or ncu

    would indeed just flat out suck.

    would be another example of pvp annoying pvm players.

    to me the whole point of this thread was to show that as long as the current rule set exists there will never be as free a crowd to mingle in pvp as in pvm.

    pvp and camping are the worst thing in ao atm.
    sept 03 - the day ao was keeled by sl.

    gone now. byebye.

  8. #48
    Originally posted by Thatone
    There really isn't going to be any wonderful solution to this because it takes away one of the most fun aspects of the game (twinking) and ruins the skill system. If you can't get outside buffs like ess and FG for imps and armor, etc, then it takes away the ability to equip most things in the game. Likewise with mochams, etc for pets. If FC were to implement any sort of percentage req on the nano lvl and the player lvl, then a major overhaul of mob strength would have to be done.
    Now you did read the original post carefully? NOOOO!

    The original post said PvP zones would be affected by lvl range on nanos, you normally twink ur toon in a PvP zone?


    My comment:
    Sillirrions Ideas r good in theory and I hope something could be done so that twinks with huge buffs dont take over the world.. I do understand that ppl (and guilds) new to AO will run away from PvP if they dont have any chance.

    I think restricting NCU is really not the way to go.. and im afraid that any other way of controlling size/amount of buffs is something FC dont want to do... or have time/resources

    Lets chew on this some more...
    Pulze
    Soldier

    First Order
    http://www.firstorder.net

  9. #49
    Another problem is... an org of real newbies that is active and large enough to expect to keep a base at all, will out-level their bases in no time flat. Low level NW is going to be mostly fought by alts and twinks who don't intend to level after a certain range, no matter how you cut it. The only reason that the low level areas aren't all in the hands of twink orgs already is because their mains have better things to do.

    People whose "mains" are low level will level up and out of the pvp range for their towers, so they'll either have to make alts and twinks of their own, or they'll have to accept that they're gonna lose their tower to twinks and alts who are in the right pvp range.

    The outside buffed fights can be pretty lame, such as where the characters can't even damage each other, and so forth. And that situation tends to favor the attacking force, since attacking twinks with hack-n-quack and rrfe can more or less kill the defender's base while ignoring damage from the player defenders, and the only way to counteract them at all, then, is to debuff them.

    But what's going to end up happening is that OmniTwink will crush a newbie org's base, or two, in say athen shire. Then ClanTwink will come take it back and probably give it back to the newbie org or maybe keep it themselves. Then OmniTwink will go to another area... and ClanTwink will visit PM or Lush Fields...

    Actual orgs of new players that are really low level mains won't ever be attacking the enemy faction in Athen Shire or Omni Forest or anywhere besides maybe Upper Stret West Bank and Newland. And the reason is really simple...

    Without beacon warps, or the fixer grid, level 10-40 characters will never be able to get to the zones where the other side's level 10-40 bases are in reasonable numbers within a reasonable amount of time. Aggro mobs, guards, and the like will kill them before they get there.
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
    The Doctor Guide to: Notum Wars Martial Arts Perks! Nano Controller Units
    The General Guide to: Auto-Combat General Perks

    Visit the Roses and check out the shops in our City, NE of ICC at 4500x1500 in Andromeda!

    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  10. #50

    there are several locations where you could get to.

    the whole famous 4 25% gas area ranges basically the whole stret.

    but in a way you are right, nobody cares enough for a tower to set aside leveling a character unless you are so fed up with the game that pvp is your only pride and joy.

    jynne what you are saying en passant is exactly how it is now:
    no org except a handfull of bullies will keep their towers.

    the rest has tried and seen what a laugh the whole affair is and will not give pvp or controllers another thought until they are either 167 and up and terribly bored or until they shut down their account whichever comes first.

    nicely done funcom.
    sept 03 - the day ao was keeled by sl.

    gone now. byebye.

  11. #51
    #1 Dont allow anyone outside the areas level range inside the 25% area.
    #2 Extend the 25% area around the bases
    #3 Clear the NCU upon entering a 25% area

    The twinks would still be at an advantage, since they can take more buffs from eachother, but he one-man-army twink will be gone.

    Problems? Well there is the obvious one about toons accidentaly entering a tower zone that is 25%. Or just happen to have a mission inside one... Or the MP suddenly dropping 500 feet because his QW terminated

    #4 No termination of buffs until the 60s timeout is done.

    Extend these rules to all areas, and it will change the dynamics of tower battles totally.

  12. #52

    Re: there are several locations where you could get to.

    Originally posted by Blackwing

    no org except a handfull of bullies will keep their towers.
    Bullies or just people who like to do other things than missions?

    So my guild is full of lowlvl twinks to defend our base and attack others... well these guys know how to twink, but most importantly they got experience, they have tried PvP and died alot before they got good at it, they have twinked alot to become good at it... While the n00bs/casual gamer, or whatever u wanna call those who cant protect towers, didnt like the pvp aspect of the game, or havent tried it out much... well they will die no mather if it were twinks with outside buffs, twinks selfbuffed, or just someone who has got alot of pvp experience...

    and if they listen to all these whiners now, and nerf buffs and ncus, what will stop them from coming here to whine in a few weeks when they still gets owned... then new nerf will come, it will never end, and this game will suck, infact at already sucks, because of all the whiners asking for nerf, and people who have played this game from day 1 is leaving in discust...
    Jamesdum President of Ragnarok
    Jamespond Member of Ragnarok
    Jamespond2 Member of Ragnarok

    Want to join Ragnarok?

    Quote on BrutalThug
    Because we have spy's in EVERYONE's guild so we can plan the attack while you sleep !! yeah ! hmm we clearly need to rename the guild to "nordic echelon"

  13. #53

    ach james

    i thought you got the point of this and several other discussions on the board but it seems i have to reiterate:

    if you want more people to pvp you have to even the playing field.

    there.

    that is it - just that simple really. if you play balls to the walls no holds barred whatever i am not caught using is allowed and fair ...

    then do not wonder why nobody wants to play with you.

    *edit because english is not our first language:

    i use you in the broad sense not related especially to your guild or you. i used it to encompass people who defend the current pvp system as exemplified in nw.*
    Last edited by Blackwing; Jan 9th, 2003 at 19:16:58.
    sept 03 - the day ao was keeled by sl.

    gone now. byebye.

  14. #54
    Originally posted by Jamespond


    Well he are talking about Nordic Fusions twinks here... And I can just say that they are all created within the last 3 weeks, none of them have used the tutor bug or the old treatment stacking, or got buffed from traders from the time that was possible... Our twinks er 3 weeks old, and they are twinked on a legal way... No need to flame my guild and call us exploiters for this...
    not flaming a specific guild didn't even mention yours was just pointing out that its very likly some of these toons are still around.

    ~aqua
    Kappen Token Trader of Project EDEN LV 217 mind numbing grinding since 1948 well it just seems that long!!!!!

    Playing a Trader is like cyber S&M

    ---------
    "if you dont die in mass pvp your not doing it right"

  15. #55
    Bah! Didn't read this entire thread, but my idea has always been to make buffs team only. This way if you left the team, the buff was canceled.

    Of course I'd also vote for level reqs being put on all nano's similar to the Perception buff level reqs on my Adv nano's...



    Of course this will probably piss off my friend who loves to twink.

    He has a level 1 that can solo level 20 bases.... :P He has 79 NCU's at level 1.
    Veteran Homer "Detonate" McDuff - My Equipment
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  16. #56
    Originally posted by Aqua


    not flaming a specific guild didn't even mention yours was just pointing out that its very likly some of these toons are still around.

    ~aqua
    I said he, not you Didnt mean u, but if u look at some of the first posts, u see someone name my guild, and that we exploited with those old bugs.. just pointed out that we didnt have any twinks from that time, and that we did twink legit...
    Jamesdum President of Ragnarok
    Jamespond Member of Ragnarok
    Jamespond2 Member of Ragnarok

    Want to join Ragnarok?

    Quote on BrutalThug
    Because we have spy's in EVERYONE's guild so we can plan the attack while you sleep !! yeah ! hmm we clearly need to rename the guild to "nordic echelon"

  17. #57

    which i dont doubt.

    it is just extremely annoying how messed up the mechanics are.

    i 2 have taken a look around the forums and alot of strange players are around in ao.

    cannot be helped but that is why i was so vocal against the focus of notum wars and am against camping and crowd control.

    just do a forum search for revolutionary, kuroshio and sanskrit and you will know what i mean.
    sept 03 - the day ao was keeled by sl.

    gone now. byebye.

  18. #58
    Blackwing:

    Experience in this game translates to the power of the low level char that is doing PvP. Give any player 15M credits and a level 24 toon to twink, and the best results wouldn't be the one that is playing a 7 day trial

    And to go further, receiving buffs require a certain degree of social interaction. When FC introduced OE, they also specificaly ruled out buffs, since they required players to interact, and that was positive...

    "Level the playfield" and you just move the problem. The result would be a just as dead newbie. Or rather lowbie... And it would still be the large org with experienced players that would rule the battlefield.

    I guess even the org having low level bases and using twinks to defend them don't expect to keep that base for a very long time.

    As it is now, the low level bases are the ones most active in NW, they are also the ones changing hands...

    Everyone have just the same chance to defend and attack. Everyone can have low level twinks. Its no objective way to say when a toon goes from gimp to normal to twink... You just can't expect anyone to program a subjective set of rules into a game O_o

  19. #59

    true snubble...

    my opinion is just that as a small group you are more likely to gain the experience, cash and equipment to outfit your number xy char ...

    the problem still remains that you have to have easy access to characters capable of casting heavy buffs.

    in asherons call, people programmed "buff bots" - high level mage characters standing around responding to "buff me up" tells by throwing things comparable to essence and layers onto you - totally nuts.

    i agree with you that it is close to impossible to balance pvp in a game as complicated (due to the variety of options) as in ao.

    that is why i am so vocal against making pvp into such a crucial focus of the "vision" or direction the game is going whatever you want to call it and why i argue whatever pvp change or add hits the forums or even more importantly the life server.

    i would rather have content like jobe, usefull shops, quests (WITHOUT camping thx) and the like.
    sept 03 - the day ao was keeled by sl.

    gone now. byebye.

  20. #60
    Originally posted by Freshwoman Cutefix
    Boo hoo. /me gets FRESHWOMAN selfbuffed, (most of the time ) I was lv 27. Only ran into a FEW with outside buffs, which i fought fire with fire. If its soo bad, get ur own Ess, or Doc HP buffs
    In my opinion, getting an essence or hp buff isnt really that bad. Anyone can eventually do the extra 600 dmg or whatever the number, but with something like a HoT on a low lvl player, you're options are extremely limited. People keep saying "go get you're own hot then" but this doesn't seem to accomplish anything. Two chars would just sit there hitting each other, getting completely healed. They are also very easy to get, dont take up much ncu, and if you arent doing a lot of dmg quickly, you simply arent going to kill that person. Is that really what people want this to come to? Everyone with an HoT so we all just stand there never worrying about dieing, but knowing we will never kill anyone.

    This is why I only support lvl reqs on the HoTs as I sure hope FC did not intend for lvl 20 chars to have the highest HoT a fixer can cast on them. They're already there, so obviously FC meant for them to be lvl restricted in some way. It is just so much easier to get buffs like HoT's, essences, and such which are all pretty much defensive buffs that give you more time to do more damage. You aren't going to find any buffs that let a lvl 10 outdmg a very high HoT though.

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