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Thread: Buffing ruining low and mid level PvP - Please at least consider a fix

  1. #1

    Buffing ruining low and mid level PvP - Please at least consider a fix

    Seriously, I've had fun with Notum Wars, but there is something very serious that needs airing (and indeed fixing) and thats buffing in low and mid level PvP (i.e under level 150)

    It plain and simple imbalances the game completely and leads to people who were becoming interested in PvP turn off again.

    It's so frustrating because you almost had them interested with the good work that did go into NW. However all that work will be for nothing if this isn't fixed very quickly.

    In the first few days / weeks people were getting used to the rules and most of the low and mid level fighting was reasonable fun. People who hated the gank fest that was AOs PvP were actually being won over, significantly so.....

    ...then it started...

    Guilds starting organising and the twinkage began, not through items and weapons but through buffs which have no restrictions other then needing the NCU.

    If a level 10-75 players gets a level 150+ buff, or worse still a number of them it is truely frightening, make it a team of them and it's unstoppable.

    I have seen level 30 players in Towers battles with the Highest Fixer HoT, an essence and a damage shield on. Simply attacking them killed most normal opponents very quickly.

    That's just not fun no matter how you twist it, turn it or put spin on it.

    Yes at the moment its a legal tactic and I wouldn't expect any less of AOs PvP die-hards then to start using it, but for the good of the game it needs addressing and needs addressing now

    At the moment PvP below 150 is simply decided on who has the highest level buffs on, nothing more nothing less. I would suggest that all, or at least some of the following suggestions are at least considered.

    - Upon initaiting orbeing the subject of a valid PvP attack all buffs not within 20% of your level are striped out (Thats a purely plucked out the air figure, something would need to be worked out). It would need to work like this so that PvE players simply passing an active LC area on their way to a mission weren't debuffed.
    - OE code on buffs that means you cannot receive a buff more then 25% above your level range whilst inside PvP territory

    To avoid annoying people who like to twink in PvE these would need to be only impleneted together. People could still twink and PvE with higher buffs

    - Fix the team buffing bug (you can still buff team members regardless of level)
    - Allow defenders to attack within the QL range of the LC area to attack anyone that enters (The defenders would have to be careful as this could mean they attack higher level players, but it would stop the level range exploiting going in)

    Until such time as something is done about buffing, PvP will not attract the percentage of the player base it deserves to. It can be fun, it just needs to be fair first!
    Craig 'Silirrion' Morrison
    Old Timer

  2. #2

    well man

    our base will be gone next time you log on.

    this time they brought 2 teams one containing a lvl 150 advent for heals and one a 200 soldier for reflect buffs.

    i had time to ask them wether they were serious though.

    they were decent enough to reply that yes it was a big joke on us before raping me.
    sept 03 - the day ao was keeled by sl.

    gone now. byebye.

  3. #3
    The miracle is we held out for two weeks

    At least we won't have any base for me to worry about if I feel the need to smash their towers up as they have ours and other clan sites in Stret West. PvP Flags I can handle.

    I know it's strictly 'legal' by the rules, but doesn't anyone else have an issue with a level 30ish attack force bringing along 150+ for buffs?

    I know I won't in a rush to make another base whilst the rules stay as they are
    Craig 'Silirrion' Morrison
    Old Timer

  4. #4
    Yes, it's a big joke. It should not be possible for level 25-30 characters to have that much NCU to hold all of their buffs, plus the buffs from all of their high level characters.

    Last time they did this, they had a lvl 200 enforcer with them to buff essence and a 60point damage shield. We were defenseless as any attack we attempted only hurt us more than it did damage to them.

    Nordic Fusion (and any other guild doing this same thing) seriously needs to just go back to the arena (since it's pretty obvious at this point that nothing is planned to fix the pvp exploiting going on with the land control pvp'ing). At least then it would be somewhat fun for us to tower pvp again.
    Last edited by Kerz; Jan 5th, 2003 at 17:58:12.
    Kerz, 220 Omni Solitus MP, Proud President of Omni SV-9
    Kerzie, 209 Omni Solitus Engi
    Kerzicat, 206 Omni Atrox Crat
    Krzy, 157 Omni Opifex Fixer

  5. #5
    Completely agree, I must admit to being very disheartened. I've been a pretty vocal advocate of the merits of PvP since NW was announced, and got people excited, built a base and was very glad to see people that were PvP sceptics starting to have fun.

    Then the 'sub-guilds' those with high level toons and firends decided that they didn't like playing on level playing fields and would show off how many buffs they could squeeze into a level 30 toon.

    Sorry if that sounds bitter, but I am really downed by the situation. NW has so much potential as does PvP in general, however as usual a combination of lack of control (programatically) and the urge of powergamers to gank has taken over.

    High level PvP is more fun but takes too long, part of the supposed appeal that NW was to have was that it opened up PvP to all levels, I am afraid as off right now they have failed (Not often I say that about Funcom)

    Don't misinterpret this as an annoyed reaction to a single attack, this is from witnessing NW PvP since it went live, alas I fear it's only been fun about 30% of the time (And that includes time when I was on the losing side, this isn't a rant because I kept getting killed)

    It's such a wasted opportunity too, thats what makes me frustated, this was an opportunity to make people who would never have tried PvP true converts, however as it stands they are even more conviced PvP sucks then when we started
    Craig 'Silirrion' Morrison
    Old Timer

  6. #6
    Think what your asking for. How would it affect the rest of the game? As long as there is very few notum spots compared to the number of players, it will be for the select few anyway.

    Yes, the twink war can be incredibly daft. Yes, I think funcom will do something about it. And no, I don't think they will fix it in a way that won't leave it open to further "legal exploits". The "fix" will probably destroy some other aspect off the game to the extent where its impossible to level alts.

    The solution? Well Single Character pr Server Still leaves the world wide open for multipe accounts. Level reqs on existing buffs? That would be a very drastic change to the game. The result might be further imbalance to the diffrent professions and breeds.

    The real problem is using level range in a game where diffrent professions have diffrent potential at diffrent levels. Its also a skill based game. Where things *outside* IP point allocation (like implants and buffs) is the major contributer.

    And any tower on the planet influence the XP reward we are getting. Reason good enough to take out a few towers to raise our own... The twink wars is not griefing, it actually have impact on the game. Your best defence would be to train your own little twink army.

  7. #7
    The problem with that is two fold:

    Firstly what about players who don't have high level friends? What you are advocating is playing them at their own game, and that's fine. But what about the low level newbie whose first impressions of PvP are dying quickly and not doing damage due to the high end buffs of their opponents? They will be put off PvP and that's wrong.

    Secondly doing so would be accepting the situation as acceptable which it is not. There would no pressure on FC to fix it if everyone accepts it and carries on.

    NW was supposed to make PvP more accesible and so far it has failed to do so at lower levels due to this issue. two teams took out four clan bases in Stret West today - around a dozen omni players - four bases - Tell me that is working as intended. I really doubt it.

    The high end game is working out better (although not without its flaws) but if you make PvP the enviorn of uber guilds only (or those with uber friends) then you do large sections of the player base a massive disservice
    Craig 'Silirrion' Morrison
    Old Timer

  8. #8
    Originally posted by Dreamr

    Nordic Fusion (and any other guild doing this same thing) seriously needs to just go back to the arena (since it's pretty obvious at this point that nothing is planned to fix the pvp exploiting going on with the land control pvp'ing). At least then it would be somewhat fun for us to tower pvp again.
    LOL... OMG! u know whats funny... everytime u attack a lowlvl controller... several lvl 150+ comes crawling out from the controller... uhm what are they doing there? well they are what u call "spy in the sky" this guy can go in and check just how many we are and were to attack us from to kill is... uhm its only logic after trying this a lot of time, to take some lvl 150+ with u to kill these or make them worry about something than, just how many lvl 30 guys we had there... That way the low lvls of this guild has to go in and look for them selves...

    So where is the exploit... the lvl 150+ guys are there to kill the 150+ spys... Yes we do buff up before we go in battle... who doesnt? If we have more ncu than u... well thats not our fault... and no I dont use damage shield be some clanners in SWB have done that alot... and sure we want to put a stop to this because alot of clanners have attacked our base... Using the same tactics or worse...

    OH! and then tonight we got attacked by what? 4 guilds or so... Well uhm they sure wasnt lvl 20-30 all of them... they had just as many lvl 40 gankers and lvl 60 gankers with them... Oh yeah and another tactic used on our towers... lvl 24 clan doc attacks our tower... she is the only one there... besides 2 lvl 200 clanners... and then when u attack they gank u... uhm so who is using the most unfair tactics...

    OMG! calling us exploiters just because we had outside buffs... uhm that the first time i ever heard u should fight selfbuffed in PvP... dont believe ive ever met someone who was selfbuffed...

    Our first base ever, got attacked... it ended with a huge battle that lasted more than an hour... full of lvl 200 clanners and omnis... the stupid thing about it was there were noone left who could attack the ql 100 towers... atleast we have 15-20 people in the ql of the base and a few highlvls to kill the spys..

    But yeah tower pvp is screwed... its far too easy to be the attacking side... we also know this from when we defend our towers... its not easy... heh its not what they promised at all :/

    Heh and 2 of the bases in SWB didnt even have low lvl people to come and defend... the last one had a few... well u were outnumbered... or u only have high lvls in ur guild... go for an area that u can defend... We learned that the hard way too... took the challenge, and kicked their ass, without help from 10 other guilds... unlike the attacks on our base
    Jamesdum President of Ragnarok
    Jamespond Member of Ragnarok
    Jamespond2 Member of Ragnarok

    Want to join Ragnarok?

    Quote on BrutalThug
    Because we have spy's in EVERYONE's guild so we can plan the attack while you sleep !! yeah ! hmm we clearly need to rename the guild to "nordic echelon"

  9. #9
    U know what really low? when a guild uses the "NO WARNING" exploit... like someone is useing now on our guild... heh not fun to come out on ur tower area, and see more than half the towers are destryed... and u never got a warning.. until someone in the guilded zone in to place a tower...
    Jamesdum President of Ragnarok
    Jamespond Member of Ragnarok
    Jamespond2 Member of Ragnarok

    Want to join Ragnarok?

    Quote on BrutalThug
    Because we have spy's in EVERYONE's guild so we can plan the attack while you sleep !! yeah ! hmm we clearly need to rename the guild to "nordic echelon"

  10. #10
    The problem (as I am trying to say) is that once these things start the most likely recourse people will take is to play you at your own game.

    Buffing up is one thing, buffing with 150 HoTs and essences is another. I have personally fought against members of your guild (Nordic Fusion) who had very high level damage shields on as well as others from Kramme Holdet (sp), likewise once that happened I know that myself and other clanners also sought similar help from high level friends to try and level the playing field

    My post was not an attack on Nordic or any other Omni org (I'm not into personal attacks), I used today's events as an example - I maintain that two teams taking four bases is unbalanced - as I said in my original post I understand that people will use any tactics that are not deemed illegal by the game code. I can't control the fact that people started naming names....

    Clanners and Omni both use these tactics.

    I do not hold it against Nordic Fusion, Kramme or anyone else for doing so as the rules stand, just like I don't then have any guilt about doing likewise.

    What I am saying is that it needs Fixing.

    I actually like PvP and just want it to be fixed so that it is more fun at lower levels, as you can actually have as good battles over lower controllers you don't need hours to take out.
    Craig 'Silirrion' Morrison
    Old Timer

  11. #11
    They can help the defenders more by upping the damage the turrets do. at present its kinda a joke. That may very well fix the no warning exploit as the only method of doing that will be destroyed by trying it.
    Silinar: 104 Meta-physicist. Elite Operations.

    “Man may never understand what we have done. But God will.” ~ George McKinney

  12. #12
    There really isn't going to be any wonderful solution to this because it takes away one of the most fun aspects of the game (twinking) and ruins the skill system. If you can't get outside buffs like ess and FG for imps and armor, etc, then it takes away the ability to equip most things in the game. Likewise with mochams, etc for pets. If FC were to implement any sort of percentage req on the nano lvl and the player lvl, then a major overhaul of mob strength would have to be done.

    The situation sucks but frankly, unless FC makes drastic changes to the complit reqs on ncu and belts (which brings about its own problems), this will remain a problem.

  13. #13
    Hehe I just think the clanners are pissed that we tipped the XP advantage to omni side today LOL we have been under constant attack all night...

    Its not beacuse we did anything that no other guild has done, or would do.. We just got extremly lucky today...

    Now the odd thing is that, if it hadnt been because of some lowlvl twink guilds attacking our tower a while ago, we would never have had any lowlvls in our guild... These guilds, were shouting while they kicked our base down... we at that time did not have any guildies in that lvl... But lets just say what they shouted wasnt pretty, and it ended with that they dared us... So we started lvl some alts up to retake it... after that we got attacked alot of times... well we finally had enough, and the only logic solution was to get us some omni neighboors instead of clans...

    Sorry if we stepped on anyones toes today... but we didnt exploit... and I do know of better twinks than us

    And still EVERYONE is outside buffed in PvP...
    Jamesdum President of Ragnarok
    Jamespond Member of Ragnarok
    Jamespond2 Member of Ragnarok

    Want to join Ragnarok?

    Quote on BrutalThug
    Because we have spy's in EVERYONE's guild so we can plan the attack while you sleep !! yeah ! hmm we clearly need to rename the guild to "nordic echelon"

  14. #14
    I dont know why people are trying to defend this way of PvP simply by saying the other side does it worse then they do. Which side is doing what doesnt seem to be the issue, what is the problem though, is when I go to attack a base, and every time I fought one of the defenders, he was instantly healed as he ran away by his outside buffed hot.

    Now, I havent fought any using high lvl dmg shields, so I cant say how bad those are, but having a lvl 30 buffed with the highest HoT is just plain stupid. There is nothing you can do about that, because it doesnt matter what I do, I can go get buffed with HoT's, essences, whatever, Its still not going to let me outdmg that HoT. Every time my enf hit someone there, they'd take off, with a rather large run buff, until they healed. Then they came back, over and over again. I can deal with hp buffs, dmg shields, whatever, but having my dmg instantly healed, always, is just mind-numbing.

    You can try to justify this any way you want, but its obvious that HoTs need either lvl restricts or some way of stopping lvl 30's using the highest HoTs there are in every LC area they go to. Obviously Funcom didnt intend this to be the way for it to work, and I'd be very suprised if it wasnt addressed in some way, whether or not they actually do it in some way that works, we'll have to see.

  15. #15
    There is one idea that I agree with in all of this -- the fixer hot should be level restricted. This is because the requirements on the hot cleary state a level req, but it is bugged and there is no level check when it is cast.

    Other than that...anyone can get a buff and the usefulness of buffs like essence for uses like stat buffs completely outweighs the complaint that "someone that knew how to design and play a character better than me so they should be nerfed!"

    Twinks will always be stronger than non-twink characters, but that is not becuase they are so much more uber than anyone else -- it is becuase they know how to play and can form teams that actually are effective in PvP, as well as having much better designed characters.

    Complaining that you can't beat someone of the same level as you will just make this game more level driven and remove any skill requirement that is left.

  16. #16
    I agree that its lame when u duel at the low lvls... because everyone is outside buffed, preventing one from killing them alone... But that wont prevent us from using them... since we would loose to the other sides buffed up people, if we didnt...

    Heh I really think its funny if u believe the defending side wasnt outside buffed too... U wanna know why we won? because we outnumbered them heavily... and 4 guys CAN kill someone with a HoT running... That was our advantage... infact that is every lowlvl attacking force advantage... because its too easy to smash a lowlvl base, and the defendiing side will never have the time to bulid up a large enough force in the little time it takes to take out the base... very unlike the ql 250 bases which are impossible...

    And in lowlvl pvp people dont always have a yalm and run very slow, so the defending guild would most likely not get help from other guilds in defending...

    Im not trying to justify what we did, because I see nothing wrong in it... Only that someone called us xploiters... And if we really where that much uber twinked and buffed, why did we have to get 5 people on 1 to take them out? Today we just outnumbered them... tomorrow they will outnumber us... then we can cry and whine, and ask for nerfs...

    PS: where u one of those guys attacking our base last night? If u where, then I dont really understand ur flame...
    Jamesdum President of Ragnarok
    Jamespond Member of Ragnarok
    Jamespond2 Member of Ragnarok

    Want to join Ragnarok?

    Quote on BrutalThug
    Because we have spy's in EVERYONE's guild so we can plan the attack while you sleep !! yeah ! hmm we clearly need to rename the guild to "nordic echelon"

  17. #17
    I think your overreacting a bit James

    Outside buffs is in the game, and I hope it will stay in the game. If a nano have a level req, but does not check that level req, its really Funcoms problem to fix that bug. And its certainly not impossible to kill a player running a HoT. You could just as well blame the 30% reflect shield.

    Remove the HoT, NCU and reflect, and your really giving every low level player out there larger problems. In fact, I can hardly see any way to fix this without seriously affecting other parts of the game.

    Outside buffing is part of the game all the way to level 200...

    Perhaps the real problem is to allow PvP below lvl 150 at all?

  18. #18
    exactly at lvl 150 as a MP or NT or any other profession u dont normally go into PvP, without ncu buff, HoT runspeed, RRFE, HP buffs... U go without its ur own fault u die

    At lower lvls, u just use lower versions... no need to call for a nerf here...
    Jamesdum President of Ragnarok
    Jamespond Member of Ragnarok
    Jamespond2 Member of Ragnarok

    Want to join Ragnarok?

    Quote on BrutalThug
    Because we have spy's in EVERYONE's guild so we can plan the attack while you sleep !! yeah ! hmm we clearly need to rename the guild to "nordic echelon"

  19. #19
    Last edited by KrazyKanuck; Jan 6th, 2003 at 11:28:00.

  20. #20
    You know I am almost for a level req on outside buffs within a PvP zone. I think this would bring strategy back into the game. But I wish FC would of done this earlier. Since the game is like that now I would never want a nerf.

    The other day my Trader fought a MA......Now a self buffed Trader can generally kill a self buffed same level MA. After I rooted him, stood back and ladderd my deprives/ransacks heres what happened. I could barly scratch him. I mean my shottie that normally does 100+ in PvP is hitting him for 5-20 and his HP bar did not move an inch. I also started sucking his nano and HP and kept my deprives/ransacks running. He also could not touch me since I had Behemoth/PNH running.

    Now standing there doing absolutly nothing to each other is kinda lame. I would prefere he kick my arse then a freakin ubber buff stalemate.

    My Current Armor Setup Nail Armor Baby!

    Stupidity Should Be Painful

    LVL 200 Clan Enforcer - General of Lost Chapter

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