Tradeskillerz Convention!

[__________1st Yeshua]

To all tradeskillerz,

A very important meeting is being scheduled for Saturday January 11th, 2003 at 17:30 (GMT) near the Bronto Burger in Back Yard 1 in Borealis.

We will be discussing possible ways to pesuade FC to make changes to their pollicies on trade skillz.

We will hear suggestions on how to improve trade skillz.

Specifically:

1. we would like to see an increase in the amount of XP given for using tradeskillz; implant creation, weapons creation, treatment labs...etc. The xp given should be no less than 25-50% of what would be earned if a mob of equivalent lvl were murdered. In the case of an implant. A LVL 200 mob might yield ~50k. In turn The creation of a QL 200 Implant, all three slots included, should yield no less than 12.5K-25k. As the system currently functions a full set of QL 200 implants would only yield roughly 30k.

2. We would like to see a decrease in the costs of purchasig materials used in the trade skill process. A reduction in cost, which would allow a trades person to sell an item for atleast 150-200% of what was spent in order to make the item. (re-usable resource not included, though the price structures of these items needs to be rethought as well). Tradeskillerz should be able to make a real living at their trade. We should not have to rely on tips for our services alone. We're not waiters from goodness sake.

As tradeskill enthusiasts we are tired of spending so much IP on tradeskills only for a negligible return on our investment. We want Funcom to rethink their approach to tradeskillz as a whole. It is our assertion that by improving the tradeskillz the social atmosphere of will be improved in like turn. As more people participate in tradeskillz, there will be more player to player interaction, involving something other than gunfire, and it will add a whole new dimension to role playing that most have yet to experience in-game.

All players, whether they directly participate in trade skills or not, will benefit from these changes, as they will no longer have to buy all items from the shops, and may find them even cheaper off of other players. No more wasting money in shops, that just suck up money into an endless vacuous void. That's right, these changes may assist in the development of a true player based economy, not one based on arbitrary numbers.

please send tells to Moesis or Aazamon in-game on the Atlantean server.

If you're a Rimor player and you're interested in contributing, just post here, and you will be contacted, include your in-game name- plz

[Aazamon]

You forgot to specify timezone , or is that GMT?

[__________1st Yeshua]

14:00 GMT on Saturday January 11th, 2003

Greenwich mean time, the same time as that used by the in game clock when you press F9.

[Rugger807]

1400? thats 8 am in the midwest.....eek

[Aazamon]

Think that we should make it later? that's 7 am on the west coast here? how about 1 or 2 pm est (17 or 18:00 GMT) would be a better time and make it good for all north america and Europe

[__________1st Yeshua]

It would help us a great deal if people would post if they're interested, so we can get an idea of how many peeps we should be expecting at the event... Have to bring enough refreshments to go around...

Thanks

[Octo]

Originally posted by 1st Yeshua
......1. we would like to see an increase in the amount of XP given for using tradeskillz; implant creation, weapons creation, treatment labs...etc. The xp given should be no less than 25-50% of what would be earned if a mob of equivalent lvl were murdered. In the case of an implant. A LVL 200 mob might yield ~50k. In turn The creation of a QL 200 Implant, all three slots included, should yield no less than 12.5K-25k. As the system currently functions a full set of QL 200 implants would only yield roughly 30k.
.....

You gotta be kidding? Upto 25k for a single implant? As sensible as that might sound for someone who would want to just tradeskill all day, increasing the xp gained from tradeskilling will only lead to further exploitation of the possibilities tradeskilling does for leveling.

Several people in the past have developed 3rd party utilities that does tradeskilling automatically and thus makes people able to "tradeskill" themselves without user interaction. This has in some cases led to people leveling a trader to level 100 in a matter of hours. Do you think that less people would exploit this if you increased the xp reward by 8 times?

[markgagne]

Originally posted by 1st Yeshua
It would help us a great deal if people would post if they're interested, so we can get an idea of how many peeps we should be expecting at the event... Have to bring enough refreshments to go around...

Thanks

Where do I register?

Caddock will be there with bells on.

[Bothead]

A very good point made by Octo. I fear that is exactly the reason why tradeskill processes don't give more XP atm, and I don't think there is a lot to do about it. At least not until FunCom feel secure that they can prevent such 3rd party macroing tools from working :/

[Aazamon]

it is really sad that this fear of exploiting, and those that do it really hurt the rest of us. I would like to RP my life as a trader, and not have to kill kill kill all day :/

[DaveDread]

While I won't be able to attend, please take a chat log and/or write up some form of summary and I'll take it up via the "professionals" program as well.

[__________1st Yeshua]

Ultimately, Octo, I think the majority of people payed, and continue to pay for this game, because they enjoy 'playing' it. No matter what you do to stop it, people will always find a way to exploit something in the game. From day one, I've wanted to be a tradesman, as was promised on the box, as an alternate way of advancing...To date using tradeskills as an alternate method of advancing would be a ludicrous undertaking, if it is possible at all.

I, for one, am not in favor of limiting the experience of those who wish to play for the few that would abuse such a system. It's like giving the power of authority to a minority that doesn't have the games best interest at heart.

Furthermore, the amount of xp given is just too little for tradeskills as a whole. Tradeskillerz have to dump far too much IP into skills that yield nearly no xp in comparison to the ratios of xp yield involved in ordinary combat. Whether an individual should get 10k or 25k xp per implant or cluster insertion is a mute point. The idea is that 1k xp is no where near enough to justify the kind of IP expendature that a tradesman/woman invests.

Consider this...How many enforcers do you see investing in tradeskills? I don't know of any...Why? I believe it's due to the fact that, they are best suited for combat. Just as Eng have an adantage in the area of tradeskillz. Additionally, all non tradeskill classes rely on tradeskill classes to make the stuff they need to conduct their private wars. The big question is why is there such a big diff in the xp yield for one proffesion doing what they're good at compared to another. Why is an entire community of players being ignored for providing services that everybody needs. In the time that it takes to find parts and create a set of implants, the average enforcer can make 5-10 lvls. And how many will I make, creating implants, in the same amount of time? You guessed it, none!

Anyway, this thread is really for promoting the tradeskillerz convention, but to answer your question...

NO! we're not kidding...

Happy New Year! BTW

[Octo]

Originally posted by 1st Yeshua
.....
Furthermore, the amount of xp given is just too little for tradeskills as a whole. Tradeskillerz have to dump far too much IP into skills that yield nearly no xp in comparison to the ratios of xp yield involved in ordinary combat. Whether an individual should get 10k or 25k xp per implant or cluster insertion is a mute point. The idea is that 1k xp is no where near enough to justify the kind of IP expendature that a tradesman/woman invests.

Consider this...How many enforcers do you see investing in tradeskills? I don't know of any...Why? I believe it's due to the fact that, they are best suited for combat. Just as Eng have an adantage in the area of tradeskillz. Additionally, all non tradeskill classes rely on tradeskill classes to make the stuff they need to conduct their private wars. The big question is why is there such a big diff in the xp yield for one proffesion doing what they're good at compared to another. Why is an entire community of players being ignored for providing services that everybody needs. In the time that it takes to find parts and create a set of implants, the average enforcer can make 5-10 lvls. And how many will I make, creating implants, in the same amount of time? You guessed it, none!

.....

My point is that even enforcers may increase for instance nanoprogramming to level an alt if xp is increased. Wheter or not its dark blue or whatever really doesnt matter since he can RESET the tradeskills when he is done leveling in your system. This possibility does encourage exploiting of that fact far more in your increased xp system. Im quite confident that my view on this topic is shared by the developers at FunCom and I really don't see any change in this.

And since you bring up this "vast majority is beeing hurt by the few"-argument. Is it fair that the engineers/traders and the likes that consider themselves as tradeskillers and that are 200 or highlevel, and did that by killing monsters (like the rest of the planet), should see new tradeskillers powerlevel like crazy on tradeskills when they couldnt? Can you see that point?

But it doesnt matter really, Im just putting up my opinion, and I respect if you have another view on the situation. But Im VERY certain that we haven't seen the last of bans of people that leveled "too" fast on tradeskills. Increasing xp WILL increase that number, and would thus be bad business for FunCom.

[__________1st Yeshua]

However, I don’t claim to know how to balance such a shift in game play, what formulas to use, or even the exact numbers to use. Yet, that doesn’t mean that something shouldn’t be done. Whether or not you have a few Enforcers that raise IP in tradeskill areas just to lvl without having to fight, those who are faithful to tradeskills should be rewarded for their hard work. Above and beyond this simple request, it’s up to FC to figure out how to implement it in such a way that it doesn’t upset the “balance” of the current system, if there is a balance at all. We should not receive only a stipend for providing other players with the items they need, so they can run off and get 10-20 times the xp we get for providing those items. I can easily waste an hour working on implants for someone, depending on how much work is involved. In the same amount of time, I could have done a solo mission and lvld at least one time, and ultimately, that’s what it boils down to, time compensation…That and IP compensation. If I put x amount of IP into something, there should be a reasonable return on my investment. Nothing massive, but enough to justify the investment.

It’s unfortunate that Funcom isn’t responsive to requests like this. A month or so after I purchased the game a year ago, I began sending in feedback, requesting improvements in the implementation of the tradeskill systems. They never did anything, and still haven’t, a full year later. Does that mean I wouldn’t want new players to benefit from a good idea? Not really, I could always start a new character and reap the benefits right along with them. That’s like saying that high level NTs were upset when Funcom decided to add a nano programming buff to their line of nanos. I sincerely doubt that you heard any NTs complain about that.

Furthermore, I don’t really care how long it takes for other players to get to x level. That’s not why I play. My only complaint is that tradeskills, as they are currently implemented, don’t live up to the original promises of Funcom. Tradeskills are a necessary evil as opposed to an alternate way to play the game.

[MiaJong]

Hello.

I'm MiaJong on Rimor, Engi level 167, and tradeskillerz..

I will try to be at your meeting, but i have to make a Character on Atlantean
Cya perhaps in January...

MiaJong, RK2

[Damger]

Count me in at Convention
Regmad
Free Trade Alliance

[Joncrouch]

Just a quick point:
It's very easy to make things bot-proof. Anyone who's signed up for a Hotmail acct. lately will have seen how M$ do it using human-only readable text. That's just one way and I'm sure FunCom could come up with plenty more if they tried.

It's a real shame that Tradeskilling isn't a viable lifestyle in AO and if bots are FunCom's only reason for not implementing it properly then they are just not trying.

[BigGreen]

Originally posted by Octo



You gotta be kidding? Upto 25k for a single implant? As sensible as that might sound for someone who would want to just tradeskill all day, increasing the xp gained from tradeskilling will only lead to further exploitation of the possibilities tradeskilling does for leveling.

Several people in the past have developed 3rd party utilities that does tradeskilling automatically and thus makes people able to "tradeskill" themselves without user interaction. This has in some cases led to people leveling a trader to level 100 in a matter of hours. Do you think that less people would exploit this if you increased the xp reward by 8 times?

I think that people should be able to level without doing the mission and hunting treadmill. The use of tradeskills to get xp should not be considered "exploting", any more than combat is considered exploitng.

To your second point, I'm sure it's also possible to do combat macros too, although it may be somewhat more difficult; should we nerf combat xp because of the possiblilty of exploits? I think that what makes more sense is adopting the policy that an ARK or GM should be able to contact you at any time during the game. If you do not respond and it turns out you're using a macro, then ban the account.

[Docmax]

what chat channel will the Convention be held on?

will the chat channel be moderated? (meaning people who are not allowed to talk will get auto-kicked)?

[Octo]

Originally posted by Strax

....
To your second point, I'm sure it's also possible to do combat macros too, although it may be somewhat more difficult; should we nerf combat xp because of the possiblilty of exploits? I think that what makes more sense is adopting the policy that an ARK or GM should be able to contact you at any time during the game. If you do not respond and it turns out you're using a macro, then ban the account.

Combat macros for AO would be next to impossible for mission-combat (since missions are always different in layout). Outside hunting would be abit easier, but to make something that can fight in for example a dynacamp and at the same time use nanos and healthpacks when hes not aggroed.... I don't think so.

Also, making a combat macro program would most certainly require the program to access the client-server datastream which is a bannable offence in itself. Maybe it would require to use some of the DLLs too, which the EULA clearly says you aren't allowed to.

User-input only programs, which are ideal for tradeskill-macroing, are easy to make in for instance Visual Basic, and don't require any interpretation of AO data. It would just need to know what key to push and what mousebutton to click. Several instances in the past have shown that tradeskill xp has been exploited in the past, so there is no reason to belive that that won't happen in the future. For instance, if you've been around for a while you would maybe have heard about the "Company" that made it into a business to level characters and sell them on eBay. Those used user-input macro programs to level chars to level 100 in a few hours, apparently using pixel detection.

What you are saying here, is that you want to be able to level without combat and because of that you are willing to ignore the ones that level chars by exploiting. To me it seems almost like saying that exploiting is ok as long as you don't have to do combat.
But what it all boils down to is that FunCom must consider the point that I brought forward, and that increasing xp from tradeskills ultimately depends on wheter or not they can implement a tradeskill anti-exploiting system. If they are uncertain if exploiting might occur on a larger scale it would be better to leave the xp as it is now and not change it.

Im sure you realize what problems FunCom would have with increased exploiting if xp is increased?