Attacking for the Sole Reason that Someone is Offline is Dishonorable Play

[MissMaul]

My personal opinion..

The reason why you can choose the time your tower will be at 25% is so you can ensure that the maximum amount of people will be online to defend it at that time.

I really doubt a team half-way finished with taking out a base is going to say 'Well damn, nobody showed up to defend, let's all go home.'

[Jaesic]

Originally posted by MissMaul

The reason why you can choose the time your tower will be at 25% is so you can ensure that the maximum amount of people will be online to defend it at that time.

You know... people keep saying this... but you all do realize that when you capture a base... if you don't put down the controller within like 21 min. ... someone else will plant one and you won't have it. Now that gives you a very very small leeway to control when your base is set up. If you take a controller down, your org has to wait a minimum of three hours before being able to put one back up on that site... while everyone else... whenever they feel like it.

So... the reason why would be true... if it were actually possible. Unless there's some gimmick to setting your base's time that I'm not aware of, this argument needs to be reconsidered.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Jaesic


You know... people keep saying this... but you all do realize that when you capture a base... if you don't put down the controller within like 21 min. ... someone else will plant one and you won't have it. Now that gives you a very very small leeway to control when your base is set up. If you take a controller down, your org has to wait a minimum of three hours before being able to put one back up on that site... while everyone else... whenever they feel like it.

So... the reason why would be true... if it were actually possible. Unless there's some gimmick to setting your base's time that I'm not aware of, this argument needs to be reconsidered.

Not really. Obviously enough of your org was online to take the tower. Now unless your org leader woke people up at 3am for a raid, you'll be placing your controller in a time frame that should ensure enough people are availible to defend

[MissMaul]

Originally posted by Jaesic


You know... people keep saying this... but you all do realize that when you capture a base... if you don't put down the controller within like 21 min. ... someone else will plant one and you won't have it. Now that gives you a very very small leeway to control when your base is set up. If you take a controller down, your org has to wait a minimum of three hours before being able to put one back up on that site... while everyone else... whenever they feel like it.

So... the reason why would be true... if it were actually possible. Unless there's some gimmick to setting your base's time that I'm not aware of, this argument needs to be reconsidered.

Ok, good point there. But it is possible with some tricky land handling

[__________WeaselMode]

hehe it is funny....


But this is EXACTLY how factions used to work in Ultima Online. On weekends you would either get up early or stay up real late till like 4am and attack the other guys base to get the sigil hehehe...Just the way it is.

[Canto]

Originally posted by WeaselMode
hehe it is funny....

But this is EXACTLY how factions used to work in Ultima Online. On weekends you would either get up early or stay up real late till like 4am and attack the other guys base to get the sigil hehehe...Just the way it is.

I guess the logical question that follows is "Where is that game now?" Are the people playing it happy? Are there enough people playing it to say that it is a successful game? What is the status of UO? If it is not a healthy game atm, why do you suppose that is? Could this be one of the reasons?

Once more, there is nothing wrong, IMO, with attacking an opponent when they are offline. When they built towers they accepted the risk. What IS wrong IMO is purposefully planning an attack for the express reason that the opponent is not playing the game. It is a matter of intent. Is there a mechanism to prove intent? No, there are no courts in AO other than the "petition" process, so this discussion is more idealistic than pragmatic in nature. For example:

1) Planning an attack at 9AM GMT on Monday morning. No problem.

2) Planning an attack at 9AM GMT on Monday morning when you monitor your opponents' presence online for a week prior and then having all your org log out near the opposing base, set their alarm clocks and get up to attack specifically because you will meet no opposition. This is wrong.

3) Planning an attack on (X holiday). No problem.

4) Planning an attack on (X Holiday) specifically because you will meet no opposition. This is wrong.

5) Keeping an alt to hold a buddy list of an opposing org for the purpose of attacking when the least of them are on. This is wrong.

With respect to Jaesic's point about tower placement, the system should allow the winning org 12-18 hours to place a controller on the land. Otherwise the "controller placement/gas defense" argument goes out the window.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Sanskrit


I guess the logical question that follows is "Where is that game now?" Are the people playing it happy? Are there enough people playing it to say that it is a successful game? What is the status of UO? If it is not a healthy game atm, why do you suppose that is? Could this be one of the reasons?

UO survived a hideous launch (they were sued for failure to provide services), hideous PvP rules (attack anyone anywhere anytime), and a whole lot worse. If there's a reason why UO isn't healthy, it'd be because it hasn't aged well. UO is only like 6-7 years old now?

Originally posted by Sanskrit

Once more, there is nothing wrong, IMO, with attacking an opponent when they are offline. When they built towers they accepted the risk. What IS wrong IMO is purposefully planning an attack for the express reason that the opponent is not playing the game. It is a matter of intent. Is there a mechanism to prove intent? No, there are no courts in AO other than the "petition" process, so this discussion is more idealistic than pragmatic in nature. For example:

1) Planning an attack at 9AM GMT on Monday morning. No problem.

2) Planning an attack at 9AM GMT on Monday morning when you monitor your opponents' presence online for a week prior and then having all your org log out near the opposing base, set their alarm clocks and get up to attack specifically because you will meet no opposition. This is wrong.

3) Planning an attack on (X holiday). No problem.

4) Planning an attack on (X Holiday) specifically because you will meet no opposition. This is wrong.

5) Keeping an alt to hold a buddy list of an opposing org for the purpose of attacking when the least of them are on. This is wrong.

With respect to Jaesic's point about tower placement, the system should allow the winning org 12-18 hours to place a controller on the land. Otherwise the "controller placement/gas defense" argument goes out the window.

Oh for Pete's sake...You acknowledge that Intent can't be determined, so why is this thread still going on? It doesn't matter why a person attacked at a specific time if you can't determine intent. If I could reasonably determine when you and your org is online/offline, I'd definately attack your base just for the headache you've given me. Dunno about anyone else though

[Jynne]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


Not really. Obviously enough of your org was online to take the tower. Now unless your org leader woke people up at 3am for a raid, you'll be placing your controller in a time frame that should ensure enough people are availible to defend

Well, 3 am might be the time that base comes open for attack... and there are reasons to attack and conquer a base besides merely expanding one's own holdings. For example, retaliation for attacks on your own base.

But once you have taken the area and placed a controller at 3 am... your org is stuck with a base that's on an inconvenient time. Sure, it might not have been your main goal to get a new base, but if you win, well, you win

So I think orgs should be able to do a one-time "gas timer reset" on a newly built controller.

[steppenrazor]

Originally posted by Sanskrit



1) Planning an attack at 9AM GMT on Monday morning. No problem.

2) Planning an attack at 9AM GMT on Monday morning when you monitor your opponents' presence online for a week prior and then having all your org log out near the opposing base, set their alarm clocks and get up to attack specifically because you will meet no opposition. This is wrong.

4) Planning an attack on (X Holiday) specifically because you will meet no opposition. This is wrong.

about #2.

is it wrong to send a spy to your enemys country. To have that spy watch and record guard changes, troop movements.

Is it wrong to have said spy watch from when the majority of your foe is asleep?

in war, information is power. He who can best lift the fog of war has an advantage over his foe.

He who knows when he foe is at his weakest has an advantage.

You seem to forget - The AO world goes on with out you. Just as the real world goes on with out you when your asleep.

Thats all it is. Off-line/asleep. thier is no real difrance in the grand scheem of things.

in War if you know your foes troops are heavly defending a base. And You also happen to know when the vast majority of your foes troops sleep. (though a clever spy or such)

when would you attack? Would you send your troops marching into a death trap while your foe is awake and alret and waiting for battle?

Or would you send your troops in quitly, during the night, to try and take the foes base while they sleep?

Yes, this is a GAME, but its a ROLEPLAYING GAME. and in roleplaying game you assum a role. Be it a king or pauper. you creat an alternat ideanty for your self in a difrent world.

That world is as real for the char as our world is for us. When we are not controlling our char, they are in effect "asleep"

i don't rember where i heard this, but it goes somehting like this -

The person who dreams my life is wakeing up. so i must sleep now and dream thiers. but i must wonder - what am i, the dreamer, or the dream?

Steppenrazor
'Blue eyed Devil'

[Jaesic]

Originally posted by Jazger

Is it wrong to have said spy watch from when the majority of your foe is asleep?

in war, information is power. He who can best lift the fog of war has an advantage over his foe.

i'm not denying the truth of this Jazger... but that 'real' spy would have to take risks. If he was caught, he might be put to death... but most likely, he would be tortured first... broken... his own people would deny that he existed.

We are talking about people using game mechanics designed for a completely different purpose being used to identify when an org base is at risk... the standard friends comm list, the org membership web site, etc. Those things were made to enhance the social environment. Not as spying tools. If we want to complain about anything being an exploit, this is where its at. Not the part where people attack when the org is offline... but the part where they use a means other than scoping out the base to, as you put it "spy."

[Canto]

Originally posted by Kuroshio

Oh for Pete's sake...You acknowledge that Intent can't be determined, so why is this thread still going on? It doesn't matter why a person attacked at a specific time if you can't determine intent.

I believe that there are people in the game who are highly competitive, but fair-minded and sportsmanlike players. It is possible that some of those people may have positions of influence over how attacks are planned. If those people make the decision that they or their org will not condone such tactics, then I believe the game will be more fun for all. Simple as that. I am not asking that intent be determined by anyone except the people planning attacks.

There are all kinds of legitimate strategies and tactics in the game that don't require dishonorable play. For instance, an opponent org sent a "feint squad" to our base the other day to keep some of us away from defending an allied org's base. This kind of maneuver is crafty and smart as opposed to keeping an org's membership roster handy to plan attacks when they aren't playing, which is lazy and dishonorable.

Jazger, in real world spying, a little more effort is required than adding names to a buddy list and checking it from time to time.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Jaesic


i'm not denying the truth of this Jazger... but that 'real' spy would have to take risks. If he was caught, he might be put to death... but most likely, he would be tortured first... broken... his own people would deny that he existed.

We are talking about people using game mechanics designed for a completely different purpose being used to identify when an org base is at risk... the standard friends comm list, the org membership web site, etc. Those things were made to enhance the social environment. Not as spying tools. If we want to complain about anything being an exploit, this is where its at. Not the part where people attack when the org is offline... but the part where they use a means other than scoping out the base to, as you put it "spy."

In the end this whole arguement is pretty much moot. Intent can't be determined, short of open admitance. Even then if confronted the person could easily coutner by saying they lied just to piss em off. This entire discussion amounts to "I need something to whine about, lest I have to admit me and my org weren't prepared to defend our investment". Cause it's not 1 person that has to be offline. It's the majority of the org.

And personally speaking, given the complexity of actually pulling it off (one person mentioned programming applet to log org info and monitor their playtime, another mentioned using !cc addbuddy [though I know the org I'm in has 100+ people and that'd be insane]) anyone that went through all that trouble honestly deserves to have such an advantage. More power to him. I find it far easier to just attack the base and see who shows up.

[Canto]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


In the end this whole arguement is pretty much moot. Intent can't be determined, short of open admitance.

Saying again, I am trying to appeal to the sense of fair play of others in the game who want a fun experience for everyone. I am not trying to set up a tribunal.

Originally posted by Kuroshio

And personally speaking, given the complexity of actually pulling it off

Bah, anyone can set up an alt to store the roster of any org in the game and enter in all the information in one hour (Maybe 2 hours if the org is extremely large). It ain't that hard to add a list of people to a buddy list.

[Jaesic]

Originally posted by Sanskrit


Saying again, I am trying to appeal to the sense of fair play of others in the game who want a fun experience for everyone. I am not trying to set up a tribunal.



Bah, anyone can set up an alt to store the roster of any org in the game and enter in all the information in one hour (Maybe 2 hours if the org is extremely large). It ain't that hard to add a list of people to a buddy list.

I don't even want to say how to do it because it will add to the temptation to do it... but trust me when I say that after a few hours of scripting, i could run the script with the name of the org and moments later have the only people be the ones from that org... then i'd just have to count how many there are and if i don't know them, maybe use helpbot to find out their level (or maybe just add that step to the script).

[steppenrazor]

Originally posted by Jaesic


i'm not denying the truth of this Jazger... but that 'real' spy would have to take risks. If he was caught, he might be put to death... but most likely, he would be tortured first... broken... his own people would deny that he existed.

We are talking about people using game mechanics designed for a completely different purpose being used to identify when an org base is at risk... the standard friends comm list, the org membership web site, etc. Those things were made to enhance the social environment. Not as spying tools. If we want to complain about anything being an exploit, this is where its at. Not the part where people attack when the org is offline... but the part where they use a means other than scoping out the base to, as you put it "spy."

Ah.. You speak of the spy getting caught.


But the spy does not have to go on site to get the information he needs. He could as simply bribe someone, Hack into a computer system and steal the information.

Should he go that rout the odds of catching him are slim indeed.

Guild info posted on the web.

Hum, mabye mabye now. After all its pretty easy to find out all kind of information on the web yes?

Need to know the sepcs on a toma hawk missle? check the web.

Information exists, and can be found. Want to bet 100 buck given just your real name i could find out where you live, where you work, your phone number, social security number? What kind of food you like? where you shop, what kind of gifts you give?

books you read?

like it or not, even in todays world, your tracked and cataloged. Unless you've never used a credit card, bought a home ect. You exist in the "system" and as such, the information can be found out quit simply.

and that in our age. think 30k years ahead. In a world where everyone has implnats and HUDs that let us find out what guild your in, what side in the war your on.

Do you think such simple information as Who your firends are or your guild mates are would be hard to find out?

Would it be hard to find out where sais person works, what thier normal retuine is?

not at all. Welcome to big brother. you think we keep a lot of info on people, lol take a look at Omni. you can bet they have a file.

and you can bet that thier would be folks with access to said files.

Sadly thier no set up for such in the game, so, given the basic information that can be found out in game. And the huge ammount of information that could be and should be able to be aquired in game.

it seems pretty reasonable to hit Fc.com check the guild info out.

Just becuase its not 'in game' does not mean that the information is forbinen 'in game'

Steppenrazor

[steppenrazor]

Originally posted by Sanskrit


Jazger, in real world spying, a little more effort is required than adding names to a buddy list and checking it from time to time.

Ah, but is is not the "real world" this is 30k years in the furure yes?

in a world where we have HUDs built into out brains that add data to what we see.

Such as the nice maps, or names or guild, or side.

We are only able to merse our selves into the game world in a few minor ways.

in a world where you can replace your brain, or ware a suit of clothing and become better and first aid.

One must assum give the other items in the world that has such an item as a HUD MAP that can be upgraded to show - Machines, people, monsters. Even what side the folks are on.

how much effort do you really think it would take?

In a world where you can be 1/2 way around the planet, out in the middle of nowhere and get a message from someone. (like a phone call wow! call your enemy and if he doesn't answer attack!

Heck a good ammount of modering spying happens 1k miles from the target. Simply hop on a system, hack your way inot targets system and info city. not much effort thier, some but not like what you seem to think it should take.

And if your good enf? they will never even know you were thier.

how much more skill would hackers and such be 30k years from now? Seeing as no matter what secruity someone uses, someone else can break though in a few seconds.

i use real world examples to give you a more clear understanding why you are wrong in this. not to compare AO world to real world.

Steppenrazor

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Sanskrit


Saying again, I am trying to appeal to the sense of fair play of others in the game who want a fun experience for everyone. I am not trying to set up a tribunal.

The point is still moot. You're attempt the equivalent of arguing the color of the sky to a blind man. In the end, the blind man can't tell if you lying or not and has to accept what your telling him.

You can't tell why someone chose to attack a base at a particular time. So why bother?

Originally posted by Sanskrit
Bah, anyone can set up an alt to store the roster of any org in the game and enter in all the information in one hour (Maybe 2 hours if the org is extremely large). It ain't that hard to add a list of people to a buddy list.

Long way, you'd be there for a few days with some orgs attempting to add in all the members. Short way? Don't ask me. I'm networks. XML processing, I have a web designer for that

[Canto]

Originally posted by Jazger

i use real world examples to give you a more clear understanding why you are wrong in this. not to compare AO world to real world.
Steppenrazor

LOL, and if you're analogies to the world are invalid because they don't show a correct comparison between the game and the world, how does that give me a more clear understanding of why I am wrong?

You brought in the real world spying analogies, not me. Those analogies are irrelevant because what we are talking about is using a mechanic intended to simplify communications within the GAME for the purpose of tracking WHEN THE OPPONENT IS NOT PLAYING THE GAME, not wresting sensitive information from a database. The real world is the real world and a game is a game. It is shocking to me how many intelligent and educated people here cannot distinguish between a war and a wargame or a game and real life. In war, god knows I will be punching in the nuts with the best of them. In a game, WE ALL WANT TO HAVE FUN by competing against a skillful, honorable opponent, and anyone who says otherwise is trolling, fooling themselves or emotionally disturbed. This is not war. This is not life. This is a game.

More importantly, the only way to defend against "roster-checking" tactics is to leave your character logged into AO all the time sitting afk for the most part. This is an equation for less fun and more lag. Do you want less fun and more lag to be the only defense against a dirty game tactic?

[Jaesic]

Originally posted by Jazger

how much more skill would hackers and such be 30k years from now? Seeing as no matter what secruity someone uses, someone else can break though in a few seconds.

i use real world examples to give you a more clear understanding why you are wrong in this. not to compare AO world to real world.

Steppenrazor

Yeah, actually I do understand that quite well... but its not a part of someone's skills, its a feature that can be used without defenses by the absolutely lowest level character.

If its supposed by be a part of the world, fine... make it a skill by a fixer. But its not. So stop trying to make it sound like it is.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Jaesic


I don't even want to say how to do it because it will add to the temptation to do it... but trust me when I say that after a few hours of scripting, i could run the script with the name of the org and moments later have the only people be the ones from that org... then i'd just have to count how many there are and if i don't know them, maybe use helpbot to find out their level (or maybe just add that step to the script).

The community page and the orgs rosters listed there are generated from an XML document that's freely availible to anyone if I'm not mistaken. With a little processing, you can search by org name and get back that org's roster.

Hackerquest released an API for the web chat interface in CGI. With a little tweaking, the chatbot could be modified to take the output of the roster processing as input to add automatically to your buddy list.

Not sure if the routines are there for this functionality, but it shouldn't be difficult to modify the chatbot even further to watch the online/offline times of people on its watch list and calculate when they normally play. Would simply require the API to have functions to catch the online/offline status as the ingame buddy list does.

As I said to Sanskrit above. I'm hardware/networking. I have web designers to play with scripting and stuff. I do know people that could do this (depending on the chat API's robustness) with the same amount of work/difficulty it takes me to set directory permissions on a server. But I think you're overestimating the value of your towers. I wouldn't go through this just for a couple bases.