Attacking for the Sole Reason that Someone is Offline is Dishonorable Play

[Blackwing]

no matter how long or hard people argue you 2 will not get it.

[Canto]

Originally posted by Kuroshio

Both trading 'bows on the paint and 'chin music' are actually accepted in professional basketball and baseball. ..

You must have been one of the benchwarmers in sports.

I am quite sure you aren't paid millions of dollars to win at AO. If you were, and this were your job, then some of the poor sportsmanship you like to euphemize as "chin music" and "bows on the paint" might have some justification. As it is, you play this game for "fun" whatever that means to you. And if it means dirty play, be it this game or any other, you will soon find yourself playing alone.

P.S. Go into ANY top-flight amateur sports program and start throwing elbows or beanballs and see where it gets you. You won't even get to SEE the bench because you will be out on your ass so fast it makes your head spin.

Ditto to Revolutionary

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Blackwing
no matter how long or hard people argue you 2 will not get it.

Erm...the only 2 people so far have been you and Sanskrit. Everyone else either flames, shrugs it off since the whole thing is moot (game mechanics ya know) or finds it dishonorable but viable.

I think yall don't get it: People are having fun while yall are letting the remote possibility that in a couple attacks might have been dishonorably executed niggle your sense of Honor and ruin everything for you.

Geez...Get over it. This is as bad as those fixers that acted like GA was completely useless thanks to the NT Inversion nanos.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Sanskrit


I am quite sure you aren't paid millions of dollars to win at AO. If you were, and this were your job, then some of the poor sportsmanship you like to euphemize as "chin music" and "bows on the paint" might have some justification. As it is, you play this game for "fun" whatever that means to you. And if it means dirty play, be it this game or any other, you will soon find yourself playing alone.

P.S. Go into ANY top-flight amateur sports program and start throwing elbows or beanballs and see where it gets you. You won't even get to SEE the bench because you will be out on your ass so fast it makes your head spin.

Ditto to Revolutionary

What sports did you play as a kid? Hell, I've seen blood during the company softball games. And I didn't cause it

You keep saying I'll find myself alone. The fact is the majority of the people ain't letting the possibility that someone might hit their base while they're offline stop them. The people that don't give a damn or don't care about the ethics behind it seem to be having more fun than you. So who's it hurting more? You, who cares so much to cause such a storm over this? Or me who really doesn't care except for your ability to flame whoever doesn't agree with you?

When I log in and find a base gone, I can shrug my shoulders and prepare to go take it back...+1 just to teach whoever a lesson (if circustances allow). When you log in and find a base gone, you get pissed because they didn't have the Honor to attack you face to face. You come here to the forums, threatening to pack you bags and asking "Who's with me?" Hell, it bothers you enough to continue to argue with someone like me or Revolutionary when you have a better chance of getting ice cubes from Satan in Hell than changing our positions. So who's the winner here, Sanskrit? People that are able to have fun, not letting the "might"s and the "maybe"s of something they can never prove annoy them? Or you?

[Canto]

No, Kuroshio, I see the potential for a game that is fun for all being ruined by childish people because they can. This is an amazing game in alot of ways but it is a game in crisis atm. People are deciding now whether to cancel their accounts and take a breather waiting for the next game or to continue playing here.

Have rebuilt towers twice in this game; it took 10 minutes and cost about 1% of my net ingame worth both times. Losing towers is really no biggie for me, my toon did fine without them and will continue to do fine.

The point is that there are lots of people who are looking for any excuse possible to ditch this game and move on to the next new one whenever that emerges. People leave when they feel that they are not playing on a level playing field and with NW set up the way it is now, players can choose whether to play hard and fair or to take advantage of holes in the system to reap some "advantage." The latter actions create that sense of an unlevel playing field for a sizable number of players. Most of them don't have time or the inclination to read these forums. The ones who do, the addicts and the hardcore players, shape the whole complexion of the game for everyone and it's those players I want to see this thread.

Look at the NW forum for goodness sakes, it is full of instances of people doing everything they possibly can to "win" within an unfinished system that is FULL OF HOLES. Who plugs the holes and keeps things fun when there is no rulebook to rely on? Players do.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Sanskrit
No, Kuroshio, I see the potential for a game that is fun for all being ruined by childish people because they can. This is an amazing game in alot of ways but it is a game in crisis atm. People are deciding now whether to cancel their accounts and take a breather waiting for the next game or to continue playing here.

Have rebuilt towers twice in this game; it took 10 minutes and cost about 1% of my net ingame worth both times. Losing towers is really no biggie for me, my toon did fine without them and will continue to do fine.

The point is that there are lots of people who are looking for any excuse possible to ditch this game and move on to the next new one whenever that emerges. People leave when they feel that they are not playing on a level playing field and with NW set up the way it is now, players can choose whether to play hard and fair or to take advantage of holes in the system to reap some "advantage." The latter actions create that sense of an unlevel playing field for a sizable number of players. Most of them don't have time or the inclination to read these forums. The ones who do, the addicts and the hardcore players, shape the whole complexion of the game for everyone and it's those players I want to see this thread.

Look at the NW forum for goodness sakes, it is full of instances of people doing everything they possibly can to "win" within an unfinished system that is FULL OF HOLES. Who plugs the holes and keeps things fun when there is no rulebook to rely on? Players do.

You still didn't answer the question.

As for the lots of people looking for excuses to ditch the game, what's your gauge for that? How do you measure the "lots"? From these forums? There are people who will not visit these forums for anything except an announcement pointed out to them, that's how much they despise these forums and the people on them. There are people who don't even know these forums exist or have never had a reason to visit these forums, playing AO right now, whose opinions are not represented. You'll see some of them occasionally pop up: someone with a registration date of early 2002 or with a single post.

Any games official forums are not the only source for opinions concerning the game. Sometimes they misrepresent the opinions as well. If you had ever read Whineplay's forums (before they were nerfed) you'd have thought EQ's playerbase was prepared to physically hunt down the developers' entire family and fillet them. So don't point at the complaints here and attempt to say "->THIS<- will make droves of people leave". ->THIS<- particular subject is only of earth shatter proportions to you. Most people responding in this thread (now 3 pages long because I view pages 100 replies at a time) have disagreed with you. Or made fun of/flamed you. Or said "So what? Who cares?". That is a far better indicator of how important this issue is.

P.S.
If you take this topic over into the thread concerning the high level players training of mobs onto lower level players, you'll have opened to door for a response. As it stands, I can save you trouble now: Unless Funcom put in an alarm clock that woke you up at home when your base is under attack and people found a way around that, the situations aren't remotely comparable. There are mechanics in place to prevent high level players from causing damage to low level players. Personally, I think AO would have done better with safe zones and unrestricted PvP outside of them. But I'm Old School PvP (back in the late 80s when the Carebears were still on TV and people playing games like Trade Wars 2000 on BBSs would have found this whole thread laughable).

[_______Revolutionary]

Originally posted by Sanskrit


I am quite sure you aren't paid millions of dollars to win at AO. If you were, and this were your job, then some of the poor sportsmanship you like to euphemize as "chin music" and "bows on the paint" might have some justification. As it is, you play this game for "fun" whatever that means to you. And if it means dirty play, be it this game or any other, you will soon find yourself playing alone.

P.S. Go into ANY top-flight amateur sports program and start throwing elbows or beanballs and see where it gets you. You won't even get to SEE the bench because you will be out on your ass so fast it makes your head spin.

Ditto to Revolutionary

A game is a game no matter if you're paid millions of dollars to win or not, and winning, is winning. I think you'll find yourself playing alone long before we will, people will continue to put up with these tatics because its life, you will be playing Carebare Online with the 10-12 other socially inept whinners from these boards.

As for your "ANY top-flight amateur sports program"....I've play Little League and thrown bean balls, I've play AYSO and hurt players by sliding into them, and I've play AAU basketball and elbowed the other team as they tried to get rebounds. Have I been thrown out of games? One time I was, it was an AAU basketball game (that was televised on ESPN five years ago. The reason? The person gaurding me kept elbowing me in the back when I was posting up, my response was to cut his legs out on a layup. The result an intentional foul, I wasn't thrown out for that, I was thrown out because his coach came onto the court and got in my face and shoved me. And why did I get ejected? I knocked the coach out. Actually both me and the coach were kicked out of AAU for that one, but it had more to do with the fact that he had your ***** attititude about sportmanship than about me breaking the rules (or even bending them).

Before you go talking about sportmanship and such, you need to know what its like to actually play a game or sport other than an online computer game. You need to have stared at a competitor and know what it feels like to see in his eyes that you better play to win, or he will.

[_______Revolutionary]

Originally posted by Blackwing
no matter how long or hard people argue you 2 will not get it.

We get it, have you ever gotten it or do you spend all your time afraid of going out into the real world and competiting for something that you might actually lose?

[Canto]

Originally posted by Revolutionary

A game is a game no matter if you're paid millions of dollars to win or not, and winning, is winning.

Tell me what your current "score" is in AO? How will you know when you've won? When whatever that thing is happens, will you get some sort of prize? Will a bell ring? Will a scoreboard come up that shows the world that you won?

I find yours and Kuroshio's attitude about games and playing games disgusting, LOL especially games with no winner and no score. All your allusions to sports are so much hot air. AO is not a "sport."

Originally posted by Revolutionary

Actually both me and the coach were kicked out of AAU for that one, but it had more to do with the fact that he had your ***** attititude about sportmanship than about me breaking the rules (or even bending them).

You sound like a real delight of a human being... I hear the IRS is hiring folks like you.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Sanskrit


Tell me what your current "score" is in AO? How will you know when you've won? When whatever that thing is happens, will you get some sort of prize? Will a bell ring? Will a scoreboard come up that shows the world that you won?

I find yours and Kuroshio's attitude about games and playing games disgusting, LOL especially games with no winner and no score. All your allusions to sports are so much hot air. AO is not a "sport."



You sound like a real delight of a human being... I hear the IRS is hiring folks like you.

So I take this to mean that yet again you can't respond and can only flame?

Geez...Woulda thought you would have learned better skills while on your high school debate team while warming the bench.

AO is a game. A game in which direct competition against other players is possilbe. That makes it competition, whether or not there is a clear way to win or lose. Some people have highly competitive natures, like me. Some people do not, like you. You'd need a fire engine with a cherry picker to see how high my competitive nature is. Yours, people can trip over.

But in the end, the sum of the game is not just yours and mine sense of competition. It's everyone's. We represent the polar opposites of the whole. Attempting to show this as some huge problem is just a smokescreen you insist on using to attempt to cover the fact you've lost bases while you weren't online and need something/someone to blame for it.

[Canto]

Originally posted by Kuroshio

So I take this to mean that yet again you can't respond and can only flame?

Whatever makes you feel better...

Originally posted by Kuroshio

AO is a game. A game in which direct competition against other players is possilbe.

The position you advocate seeks to "win" something against an illusory opponent. You seek to calculate a time when your opponent is not at the table staring you in the eye. You seek to engage an empty chair. NW sets it up so that you may sometimes engage an empty chair legitimately, the problem I have is with players calculating to do so.

Originally posted by Kuroshio

Some people do not, like you. You'd need a fire engine with a cherry picker to see how high my competitive nature is. Yours, people can trip over.

ROFL. You know nothing of my "competitive nature" or lack of one, only a little bit about how I play games. Go ahead and post again about comparing your "competitive nature" to mine.

Originally posted by Kuroshio

just a smokescreen you insist on using to attempt to cover the fact you've lost bases while you weren't online and need something/someone to blame for it.

You want to know one of the primary reasons that I flame you?

You don't read my posts. I have spent about 2 million credits on towers, and not much time, as I stated in the last post, but like so many other things I have posted, you just ignore what you don't want to see and go on posting superficial responses .

The ingame event that triggered my concern with this issue was an attack on one of my org's bases though. The attacker admitted to our president that his org had calculated the attack to come at a time when the least of our org would be online. Incidentally I had no towers at that base and don't even remember if the base was taken or how many towers we lost.

Upon hearing this my first thought was, "What if everyone starts doing this kind of stuff? Would NW be any fun then?"

Truth be known this is just the first "hole" in NW that I want to draw attention to. There are new ones discovered every day. Do you think FC will do an adequate job of keeping the game fair and fun with rules? No, the players must do their part also.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Sanskrit

The position you advocate seeks to "win" something against an illusory opponent. You seek to calculate a time when your opponent is not at the table staring you in the eye. You seek to engage an empty chair. NW sets it up so that you may sometimes engage an empty chair legitimately, the problem I have is with players calculating to do so.

My opponents are illusory. My opponents are whoever put the base in front of me up. Whatever preparations they put in place are their first line of defense against me. Whatever people they have to reinforce the tower defenses is their 2nd line of defense (even though it's the more important line of defense). It's not my fault you or any other org forget to have a second line of defense.

During the NW beta, I came across a base. The base was poorly setup in the extreme, where there was absolutely nothing the defensive structures could to to prevent attack (poor tower placement). It was the org's responsibility for that placement. Just as it's the org's responsibility to ensure they have the ability to defend their assets when they're vulnerable. And just because you are offline, Sanskrit, does not mean your org is offline. I've noticed yet not commented on your pattern of referring to everything in the personal. Given your claims that your org isn't some smallish n00b org, maybe they decided they just didn't feel like showing up for the fight?

Originally posted by Sanskrit
ROFL. You know nothing of my "competitive nature" or lack of one, only a little bit about how I play games. Go ahead and post again about comparing your "competitive nature" to mine.

I did. My competitive nature allows me to do things yours evidently does not.

Originally posted by Sanskrit
You want to know one of the primary reasons that I flame you?

You don't read my posts. I have spent about 2 million credits on towers, and not much time, as I stated in the last post, but like so many other things I have posted, you just ignore what you don't want to see and go on posting superficial responses .

The ingame event that triggered my concern with this issue was an attack on one of my org's bases though. The attacker admitted to our president that his org had calculated the attack to come at a time when the least of our org would be online. Incidentally I had no towers at that base and don't even remember if the base was taken or how many towers we lost.

Upon hearing this my first thought was, "What if everyone starts doing this kind of stuff? Would NW be any fun then?"

Truth be known this is just the first "hole" in NW that I want to draw attention to. There are new ones discovered every day. Do you think FC will do an adequate job of keeping the game fair and fun with rules? No, the players must do their part also.

Funcom has no choice but to do so with rules. As I said, we're polar opposites in on this subject but do not represent all the views in between. Left to the players with so many differing values what do you end up with? A thread with over 200 replies and nothing done in between.

[_______Revolutionary]

Originally posted by Sanskrit


Tell me what your current "score" is in AO? How will you know when you've won? When whatever that thing is happens, will you get some sort of prize? Will a bell ring? Will a scoreboard come up that shows the world that you won?

I find yours and Kuroshio's attitude about games and playing games disgusting, LOL especially games with no winner and no score. All your allusions to sports are so much hot air. AO is not a "sport."



You sound like a real delight of a human being... I hear the IRS is hiring folks like you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right....there is no score being kept, but I can tell you that I am winning. How do I know? Because I enjoy playing no matter what happens, even if my towers get destroyed while I'm offline, I'll still enjoy the game. My ejoyment level of AO=high=I'm winning.

Funny, both me and Kuroshio find your attitude about games disgusting (I hope you don't mind that I make that assumption K?) As far there not being a "winner" in AO, thats not true, its is a game with goals. If you reach those goals and you enjoy yourself along the way, then you acheive something called satisfaction, and thats feeling of satisfaction is the exact same chemically (to your brain) as if you had actually won something (its been proven, Havard 1983, that reaching even a simple goal stimulates the brain the same as winning a game of basketball).

You also made another true statement (wow! you're on a roll today!) AO is not a sport, but you are the one who brought the term sportmanship into the discussion. I just felt that you need a clearer picture of my competitive nature and how that applies to all situations. Either way you look at it, AO is a competition, especially in PvP and tower battles. The rules both written and unwritten are in place and observed by FC. They make changes and decisions about those rules as the "game" goes along. You called people poor sports, dishonorable, and dirty. But you knew the rules when you started playing and even if you didn't ignorance is no excuse, even when it comes in such large ammounts.

You keep spouting off about sportmanship and honorable, but I still don't think you know what either means:

From The American Heritage Dictionary:
Sportsmanship - The qualities and conduct befitting a sportsman

Sportsman - One who abides by the rules and accepts victory or defeat graciously

Honorable - Possesing integrity

By those definitions, you are neither honorable, nor a sportsman. You lost a base, but did not accept defeat graciously, therefore you are not a sportman, or have you shown good sportsmanship. You then come to these forums and use words like cheater, exploiter, and make various other personal insults, therefore you are not acting honorable because you are showing little to no integrity.

Do I play dirty? Yes, I have already admitted that, that is who I am and a cross that I must bear alone. But I do not claim to have something or be someone that I am not, that would be...dishonorable.

Consider yourself bested.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Revolutionary

Funny, both me and Kuroshio find your attitude about games disgusting (I hope you don't mind that I make that assumption K?) As far there not being a "winner" in AO, thats not true, its is a game with goals. If you reach those goals and you enjoy yourself along the way, then you acheive something called satisfaction, and thats feeling of satisfaction is the exact same chemically (to your brain) as if you had actually won something (its been proven, Havard 1983, that reaching even a simple goal stimulates the brain the same as winning a game of basketball).

I don't find his attitude disgusting. I find it naive, almost to the point of pity. I have no idea what sports he might have competed in all through childhood but they weren't the same ones I played. Definately didn't have teammates and coaches like mine.

In the end though what Sanskrit refuses to acknowledge is this fact: While this particular subject bugs him enough to argue with the likes of you and I, bugs him enough that he's willing to toss his honor aside to attack people for disagreeing with him, were Funcom to suddenly agree with him and reverse the situation people like us wouldn't care 1/1000th as much.

[Canto]

Boy you two take the cake, keeping this up day in and day out and I'M the crusader LOL. Go over to the NW forum and read about what the tactics you two support will mean for this game in the long run, and in fact, in the short run.

Go read about bald-faced liars defending their griefing. (Kuroshio first reply - "but I didn't advocate griefing; griefing is against the written rules." My reply, "the point is not the specific action but that the generally dishonorable play by some is ruining NW for everyone." Kuroshio's reply "but I didn't advocate griefing; griefing is against the written rules." My reply "You are not being responsive." Kuroshio's reply " You know when I was a MUD Pirate programmer slapping the Scooby Doo on the Chin Music...")

Go read about people looking for any excuse to justify "over the top" actions in the game.

Go read about more casual players and smaller orgs talk about giving up on NW entirely.

When you have read those things, realize that I want a successful mass pvp element in AO, I want NW to succeed. BUT IT IS NOT SUCCEEDING atm, do you agree? Why do you think that is?

[locomdenom]

I missed this thread, I did.

[Jynne]

If I were a moderator I would be tempted to lock this thread and call it a mercy killing.

[Canto]

Originally posted by Kuroshio

I have no idea what sports he might have competed in all through childhood but they weren't the same ones I played.

Baseball, basketball, football, primarily wrestling in which I lettered. The coaches were universally hardasses. Not a pansy in the bunch. I come from an area where sports, athletes and coaches are worshipped. But if you even gave a whiff of being a troublemaker, a cheater or an attitude case, you were a goner. Kuroshio I can't imagine it's any different in any high school or college anywhere else, at least in any reputable program.

Originally posted by Kuroshio

Definately didn't have teammates and coaches like mine.

Look, either give on this (because you are wrong and you know it) or at least share some humorous anecdotes of your coaches looking the otherway while you played dirty or even encouraging you to play that way.

Originally posted by Kuroshio

In the end though what Sanskrit refuses to acknowledge is this fact: While this particular subject bugs him enough to argue with the likes of you and I

uuuhhh, pot-kettle-black?

Originally posted by Kuroshio

bugs him enough that he's willing to toss his honor aside to attack people for disagreeing with him

Well anonymous smack talk and flame wars on the forums may be immature, inciteful, what have you, but they don't quite reach the point of "dishonor" IMO, understand why you and Revolutionary like to try to tag that on me but it doesn't stick.

[Canto]

Originally posted by Jynne
If I were a moderator I would be tempted to lock this thread and call it a mercy killing.

Thanks for teh bump.

[____________Shiseiji]

All's fair in love, war and politics.